Trusk'our he/him Posted September 10, 2024 Posted September 10, 2024 There's a few WoBs that talk about whether or not a Singer can gain sapience from Bio-Chromatic Breaths. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e131 Argent Would a parshman who received multiple breaths, or any other type of Investiture, be able to gain sentience or become more like listener-- Kind of like mistwraith/kandra? Brandon Sanderson That would require some Identity changes and transformations. Argent So it's not just a dump of-- Brandon Sanderson It's not just a dump. It's a biological thing for them, they've adapted. So they've evolved to the point where this sort of thing-- It would be like trying to power DC with AC current or the wrong voltage or something like that... I mean once you figure it out it could be an easy hack but finding out that hack it's like-- You know it's like going back to people in the 1800's and being like "Why don't you guys have electricity?" *laughter* Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3643 ArsenoPyrite What might happen if you gave a parshman a breath (or breaths?) Would they develop a form for it, or might it generally help them think more clearly? Brandon Sanderson You're actually the first to ask this. And yes, it would work. The first is from the Chicago Firefight signing in February of 2015, while the second is August of the same year, and as it's on an online platform Brandon had more time to think it over and respond clearly. So, I'm thinking that a Singer with in Slaveform would adapt to the Breath and gain a proper Form along side clear thought. This has made me wonder though, could an Awakener give Breath with a specific Command to change what Form this would be? Perhaps a Command to be protect others would copy Warform, or a Command to heal gain biological regenerative abilities. Another question might be whether other types of Investiture could grant Forms as the Singer adapts to the Investiture. For example, perhaps since Singers are specifically adapted to changing form to fit their Investiture they could more easily bear Hemalurgic spikes. Maybe an iron spike would give them a Form with additional size and strength, but be more merciful in its transformation than with a human, leaving them with more cognition. Or, perhaps a Singer who burned Lerasium could gain an Allomancer Form. Maybe bonding an Aviar or an Unsealed Metalmind could grant Forms. Thoughts?
CtrlAltDepressed Posted September 10, 2024 Posted September 10, 2024 (edited) For breaths and allomancy, I feel like it shouldn't work on a basis of forms. A singer with breaths shouldn't be in a different form. The change of form should require a spren. Breaths are investiture that is attached to the soul and would not be stored in their gemheart (this is how i understand it, i dont think we know for sure). Same for allomancy. A singer who burns lerasium should just be an allomancer, with nothing in their gemheart. A singer with breaths should just be an awakener, without anything in their gemheart. A singer with breaths or allomancy should be able to also bond a spren and enter a form, separate from their breaths / allomancy. I think the 'this will work' from the WOB you provided is in reference to them thinking more clearly. The extra investiture on their soul would help 'escape' slaveform, but wouldnt give a form. At least, thats how I understand it. Even with Radiant spren, the spren is not staying in their gemheart, so I dont think that gives them a different form (please correct if this is wrong). WaT Spoilers Spoiler Rlain does not seem to have changed forms now that he has a Radiant spren. I think they could also bond a form spren and be Radiant with a form. This makes sense to me as Parshendi need mate-form to reproduce (i know they can without but its much harder). It would be kind of silly for Radiant Parshendi to be unable to reproduce because of their Radiant bond. Edited September 10, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed
listerfeend Posted September 10, 2024 Posted September 10, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Trusk'our said: This has made me wonder though, could an Awakener give Breath with a specific Command to change what Form this would be? Perhaps a Command to be protect others would copy Warform, or a Command to heal gain biological regenerative abilities. It's not clear to me that they'd be able to do any kind of Awakening Commands with giving them breath in the first place. From what we know of Breaths, they could transfer with the "My breath to yours" Command, but that should be about all they are able to do in that situation. Awakening doesn't seem to work, from my understanding, on living things, so I don't know that they could do something like "My breath to yours, for protection" or something like that to copy Warform in the first place. Along with what @CtrlAltDepressed said about not taking the breath into their Gemheart seems like this wouldn't really work out... The other things, Hemalurgy, Allomancy, etc.. All of these are basically Investiture interacting with the Spiritweb, splicing new things on, increasing things that are already there, etc... Seems to me that Singer Forms are essentially their own Invested Art, and would work around holding a Splinter in their Gemheart... An interesting idea I just had though: A Singer SHOULD be able to hold a Seon in their Gemheart, which, theoretically, should give them a new form they've never had before... They MIGHT be able to do something if they were to be given a Divine Breath as well, but I think that would likely have to come directly from Edowment, just like it does a Returned. Divine Breaths are splinters of Endowment, just like Spren are Splinters... so... that could lead to something interesting in the Form Department... Edited September 10, 2024 by listerfeend new idea 1
Treamayne Posted September 10, 2024 Posted September 10, 2024 2 hours ago, Trusk'our said: WoBs that talk about whether or not a Singer can gain sapience from Bio-Chromatic Breaths. The WoBs are not about Singers. They are about Parsh - the beings that were formerly Singers, stripped of Identity and Connection (not actual Singers or Listeners). 2 hours ago, Trusk'our said: So, I'm thinking that a Singer with in Slaveform would adapt to the Breath and gain a proper Form along side clear thought. A Listener/Singer in Slaveform can change forms like any other Singer/Listener (Ref: Shen/Rlain) - just because the forms appear similar enough to fool a human, does not mean that every Slaveform has the same Connection and Identity problems of pre-Everstorm Parsh. Breaths would not grant any form for a Parshman - Breaths are not Spren residing in the gemheart - But, because Breaths can grant Sentience to Awakened Objects, that WoB implies that holding breaths (probably to first heightening) may help them think more clearly. Spoiler Questioner Can you turn a parshman into a Parshendi by giving them breath? Brandon Sanderson Parshendi is a nationality. So, no. No more than you could make someone an American by teaching them to speak with an American accent. But also, how do you define being a Parshendi when the culture is basically collapsed at this point? Basically, no. Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018) 3 hours ago, Trusk'our said: perhaps since Singers are specifically adapted to changing form to fit their Investiture That is not why or how Singers and Listeners change formes. They specifically require a form of Nahel Bond (similar to the Ryshadium, Greatshell and Skyeel Nahel Bonds) to change their form - sentient investiture, not just any investiture (Sapient Nahel Bonds like Rlain and Venli are shown to not change the Singer's form). Spoiler Tom Goldthwait At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths? Brandon Sanderson "Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also. What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense. You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Hope that helps. 2
Trusk'our he/him Posted September 10, 2024 Author Posted September 10, 2024 26 minutes ago, Treamayne said: A Listener/Singer in Slaveform can change forms like any other Singer/Listener (Ref: Shen/Rlain) - just because the forms appear similar enough to fool a human, does not mean that every Slaveform has the same Connection and Identity problems of pre-Everstorm Parsh. Rlain has never borne Slaveform to my knowledge, but has used Dullform. They're similar, but Dullform maintains a level of Identity and Connection while Slaveform does not. 29 minutes ago, Treamayne said: The WoBs are not about Singers. They are about Parsh - the beings that were formerly Singers, stripped of Identity and Connection (not actual Singers or Listeners). True, but even Parsh can potentially gain Connection and Identity under the right circumstances and adopt a new Form. They still have the evolutionary equipment for that function, so I feel like these WoBs could be similarly applied to them. 31 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Breaths would not grant any form for a Parshman - Breaths are not Spren residing in the gemheart - But, because Breaths can grant Sentience to Awakened Objects, that WoB implies that holding breaths (probably to first heightening) may help them think more clearly. - That is not why or how Singers and Listeners change formes. They specifically require a form of Nahel Bond (similar to the Ryshadium, Greatshell and Skyeel Nahel Bonds) to change their form - sentient investiture, not just any investiture (Sapient Nahel Bonds like Rlain and Venli are shown to not change the Singer's form). That's fair, I suppose: just having the Investiture present in the Singer's body doesn't mean it will be programmed in the necessary ways to bond it properly. Still, Breath does mold to the bearer more easily than any other Investiture, can shape an artificial Spiritweb (as Lifeless themselves are viable to charge Hemalurgic spikes, albeit weakly), and given that Singers have a natural ability to plug Investiture into their Spiritweb, I wouldn't put the possibility of the Breath filling that gap out the window. 1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said: For breaths and allomancy, I feel like it shouldn't work on a basis of forms. A singer with breaths shouldn't be in a different form. The change of form should require a spren. Breaths are investiture that is attached to the soul and would not be stored in their gemheart (this is how i understand it, i dont think we know for sure). Same for allomancy. A singer who burns lerasium should just be an allomancer, with nothing in their gemheart. A singer with breaths should just be an awakener, without anything in their gemheart. A singer with breaths or allomancy should be able to also bond a spren and enter a form, separate from their breaths / allomancy. I think the 'this will work' from the WOB you provided is in reference to them thinking more clearly. The extra investiture on their soul would help 'escape' slaveform, but wouldnt give a form. At least, thats how I understand it. Even with Radiant spren, the spren is not staying in their gemheart, so I dont think that gives them a different form (please correct if this is wrong). WaT Spoilers Reveal hidden contents Rlain does not seem to have changed forms now that he has a Radiant spren. I think they could also bond a form spren and be Radiant with a form. This makes sense to me as Parshendi need mate-form to reproduce (i know they can without but its much harder). It would be kind of silly for Radiant Parshendi to be unable to reproduce because of their Radiant bond. 1 hour ago, listerfeend said: It's not clear to me that they'd be able to do any kind of Awakening Commands with giving them breath in the first place. From what we know of Breaths, they could transfer with the "My breath to yours" Command, but that should be about all they are able to do in that situation. Awakening doesn't seem to work, from my understanding, on living things, so I don't know that they could do something like "My breath to yours, for protection" or something like that to copy Warform in the first place. Along with what @CtrlAltDepressed said about not taking the breath into their Gemheart seems like this wouldn't really work out... The other things, Hemalurgy, Allomancy, etc.. All of these are basically Investiture interacting with the Spiritweb, splicing new things on, increasing things that are already there, etc... Seems to me that Singer Forms are essentially their own Invested Art, and would work around holding a Splinter in their Gemheart... An interesting idea I just had though: A Singer SHOULD be able to hold a Seon in their Gemheart, which, theoretically, should give them a new form they've never had before... They MIGHT be able to do something if they were to be given a Divine Breath as well, but I think that would likely have to come directly from Edowment, just like it does a Returned. Divine Breaths are splinters of Endowment, just like Spren are Splinters... so... that could lead to something interesting in the Form Department... Valid points. What about Hemalurgic spikes though? They're pretty close to what Singers already do with Spren, taking another piece of Investiture with a Spiritweb and plugging it in, though Singers are specifically adapted to it. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/391-berlin-signing/#e12860 Questioner What happens in cosmere terms with Parshendi? Like, they Connect to a spren. And then, by it do they change their Identity, or what? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Basically what's happening is, that symbiosis has a similar effect to Hemalurgy, but not so nasty. And it's being reflected there in the Physical Realm.
CtrlAltDepressed Posted September 11, 2024 Posted September 11, 2024 14 hours ago, Trusk'our said: What about Hemalurgic spikes though? Those I feel the same about. If you have a hemalurgic spike that has stolen something, why not just spike it into the singer? Then they could swap between forms as needed while keeping their hemalurgic power. You could spike their gemheart specifically, but that is only going to do something if you have used the correct metal and stolen from the correct spot, and the gemheart is the correct place for that attribute. But at that point, its just hemalurgy. Maybe there is a way to channel the investiture from a spike to their gemheart using raysium or something similar, but that seems like a hack that might not even grant a form.
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