Lumar Impossibilities

[SPECTRE120]

The world of Tress has a lot of things wrong with it that annoys me. There are mentions to several animals including fish, whales, and butterflies. How do the fish survive? If they are underground or something, how are they cheap enough for poor people to buy them? Also, how do plants grow? It says that they have 87 different uses for plywood; where are the trees? How did trees grow on an island made of salt? Also, where does the rain come from if there aren't apparent sources of water evaporation? How is there so much groundwater if the Aether seas absorb all the water? What causes the seethe, and why does it stop and start? Why are the rain patterns so constant and why are they not constant over the crimson sea? How are the moons so close to the planet and how do the spores not superheat the atmosphere when falling through it? Where does the air come from?

Some of these questions can be explained with investiture shenanigans, but others can't. I get that Brandon was trying to write a fairytale/whimsical story, but to me this just doesn't feel like it fits in with the rest of the Cosmere. I'm not saying Tress was bad; I liked it narratively, and I know that many people loved it, but there are a LOT of problems with the world.

Edited August 29, 2024 by SPECTRE120

[alder24]

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

There are mentions to several animals including fish, whales, and butterflies. How do the fish survive?

There are lakes on some islands that produce fishes. ch 2:

Quote

"I purchased a pound of fish —salmon, imported from Erik Island, where they have many lakes."

There was no mention of whales in the book and butterflies live on the land, not on water.

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

Also, how do plants grow? It says that they have 87 different uses for plywood; where are the trees? How did trees grow on an island made of salt?

Tress' island is just one among many and it's one of the smallest. Generally islands are tens of miles across. Moreover the Rock is unique in its salt deposits (that's why nobody can leave the island), other islands aren't salty - thus they are fully capable of sustaining a balanced ecosystem full of plants and animals. Tress ch 40:

Quote

“Oh, Tress,” he said, “most islands aren’t the size of the Rock, you know.”
“Really?” she said. She pulled the knife out of the drawer. “You mean there are some that are forty miles wide?”
“And bigger,” he said. “I think one over in the Zephyr Sea is sixty miles across.”

 

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

Also, where does the rain come from if there aren't apparent sources of water evaporation?

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

What causes the seethe, and why does it stop and start?

Xisis is working on this. Both the water cycle and the seethe is caused by the decomposition of Aethers deep below the surface of the Aether oceans. 

Spoiler

RShara

How does Lumar still have water if the aethers use up any of it (which seems to be most of it) that falls on the aether seas? How does water get back into the system?

Brandon Sanderson

I mentioned earlier, water cycle is the weirdest part, even more so than the moons. I will say that, as part of the decomposition of the aethers, the water reenters the system. I'll give you that much.

Tress Spoiler Stream (March 31, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Cheyenne Sedai

What research about the aethers is Xisis hoarding?

Brandon Sanderson

His biggest interest is how aethers break down, and he's really researching the water cycle, and trying to figure out how the seethe happens, because he's very interested in the decomposition of aethers, which is what's causing the seethe. That's what he is hoarding there. He's got quite the establishment in Silverlight as well. Silverlight was once upon a time a bunch of dragon palaces, they all still have their skyscrapers there, basically. He's taking a little detour for some decades on Lumar, but his home base would be in Silverlight.

[...]

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Zabeesh

If the moons are constantly pouring out spores, how do the oceans not fill up? Do they degrade eventually, or is there another method?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they degrade eventually. I'll be perfectly frank with you: my science on this, I have not gone to all of my normal science routes. The only one of the Secret Projects that we did a lot of the scientific work on is Four, because of how tied into the rest of the Cosmere it is. I have some sort of plausible wiggle room on Book One, because Hoid is telling the story, and he can get some things wrong.

Where I am right now is: the seethe is partially involved in the way that the spores degrade. And that's part of what causes it; you've got this decomposition of a fantastical sort happening deep down, and that that is causing the seethe. But I have not run the science on this.

All of my books straddle on this continuum between fully scientific and fully fantastical. And I tend to sit over on this side [scientific], where Stormlight, I'm gonna work out all of these things. But I write fantasy, and once in a while I want to stray into the whimsical. And I purposefully did it on Tress; I'm gonna push the boundaries of what I can do and still have it be reasonable that it could exist with fantastical resources, and go kind of as far whimsical as I feel comfortable doing.

That isn't to say that you should consider this non-canon; it is absolutely canon. But what it means is, I didn't start with "what's the science of this?" I started with "what is the really interesting story I want to tell, and let's tell the story there." And if it comes down that the science just can't work; well, the answer is: "A wizard did it." I have enough access to fantastical explanations for the things that happen that I can make this work." But it is me pushing the boundaries of that.

So, know that I've got general impressions. Such as: spores are degrading. The way that they're degrading is actually causing the seethe. Much in a kind of an accelerated version of how methane comes up through decomposition, and that's what we're doing. But the water cycle is really tricky; I have some instincts on how that works, but I'm not even gonna talk about them, because I don't wanna canonize that, 'cause the water cycle's a really tricky thing on this planet, in particular.

Tress Spoiler Stream (March 31, 2023)

 

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

How is there so much groundwater if the Aether seas absorb all the water?

Because it's in the ground, shielded from spores by rocks? 

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

Why are the rain patterns so constant and why are they not constant over the crimson sea?

Magical world I guess. Not the only world in Cosmere with constant, regular and predictable storm patterns.

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

How are the moons so close to the planet

Magic. It's really impossible without magic.

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

and how do the spores not superheat the atmosphere when falling through it?

Because Moons don't really orbit the planet - at least by my calculation. They are magically hanging only around 400 km above the same point on the surface and don't move away from that point - this isn't orbiting, it's magic. So the relative speed difference between moons/spores and the air isn't that big, and it's the speed that causes stuff to burn in Earth's atmosphere. 

On Earth, the ISS is moving with the speed of 7.6 km/s just to stay in its orbit 400 km above the ground, completing 16 orbits within 1 day. That's really, really fast. And that's why when something falls down on Earth, it burns in the atmosphere. The reentry speed is so big that the air compresses in front of that object, heating up to the point of becoming a plasma, which heats up the object itself. If the speed of reentry is small enough, the air can't be compressed, thus there is no plasma, thus there is no burning. Spores simply gently fall down on Lumer so they can't burn.

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

Where does the air come from?

Where did the air on Earth come from? What's so special or impossible about the air on Lumar? Why can't there be air on Lumar??  

9 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

Some of these questions can be explained with investiture shenanigans, but others can't.

Truthfully, everything can be explained with investiture. It's Brandon's world and if he wants to make it work, he can always explain it by some Spiritual phenomena, investiture keeping the moons at their place, fueling the water cycle and stuff like this. It's a fantasy world, not everything has to be scientifically realistic, otherwise there would be no magic at all and everything would be just like Earth - boring. We have to suspend our disbelief and just immerse ourselves into this magical world. It's not the first or the last of Brandon's world, which science can't explain. 

Edited August 29, 2024 by alder24

[SPECTRE120]

Thanks for all the info and answers! For reference about the air, look at this article. I know you have to suspend your disbelief, but I had to suspend it a lot more for Tress than for other Cosmere books.

Edited August 29, 2024 by SPECTRE120

[alder24]

14 hours ago, SPECTRE120 said:

Thanks for all the info and answers! For reference about the air, look at this article.

Oh, that's oxygen, not the air. Yes, oxygen would be a problem and if I were to guess, it probably comes from the seethe and decomposition of spores. It's also possible that there may be some phytoplankton-like microbes floating in the atmosphere itself and producing oxygen up there.

[Through the Living Heir he/him]

Zephyr spores produce breathable oxygen when they activate. I don’t know if it’s enough to keep a planet of people breathing, but it would at least be a factor. 
As for the weather patterns, I’d imagine it’s a side effect of whatever is keeping the moons in the air, or perhaps their tidal forces. Why Crimson is so dangerous might relate somehow - maybe it is moving around chaotically for some reason, messing up the system of tides. Perhaps it still retains a bit of intelligence, so it tries its best to get as much water as possible, either from co-opted rain or from impaled humans stuck in the showers.