Stonewards and Artifabrians [DISCUSS]

[Nydus]

I find myself wondering if there's anything inherent in general personality trends or value trends (especially as expressed in the Radiant Oaths specific to the particular Order in question) for the kind(s) of people who become Stonewards that would make them averse or opposed to either becoming or cooperating with artifabrians and people who have a general interest in extending the boundaries of what is known or possible with fabrial technology.

Since I feel like we know so little about Stonewards at this point in time, perhaps it's too soon to come to any kind of general conclusion. The Roshar resources from the Cosmere RPG might flesh out this answer further, after that stuff is published.

I think an intelligent Artifabrian who wants to expand or push the limits of fabrial technology who also commands the Surges of a Stoneward would be incredibly powerful -- possibly even world-breaking. So, I'm wondering if there's something about either "vocation" (for lack of a better term) that would make those jobs mutually exclusive or opposed to each other.

After all, what Artifabrian wouldn't love to be able to do to gems what a Stoneward Radiant can do to rocks? Especially since artifabrians would be very interested in procuring a steady supply of perfect gemstones, right?

If I were going to play the Cosmere TTRPG, I'd be interested in trying to create the kind of character who is both a Stoneward Radiant and an artifabrian... assuming that's even possible.

Edited August 26, 2024 by Nydus
adding more thoughts to original post

[Nydus]

I am aware that anything with Investiture in it, as per the Order of Stonewards page on the Coppermind Wiki, is inherently resistant to the Surges of Cohesion and Tension that Stonewards wield, so any possible Stoneward Artifabrian characters would have to prepare their fabrial materials carefully in advance if they were going to use Surges to make a fabrial prototype. And then after that stage, they would only be able to use Surges to make modifications to the non-Invested parts of a fabrial.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Nydus said:

I find myself wondering if there's anything inherent in general personality trends or value trends (especially as expressed in the Radiant Oaths specific to the particular Order in question) for the kind(s) of people who become Stonewards that would make them averse or opposed to either becoming or cooperating with artifabrians and people who have a general interest in extending the boundaries of what is known or possible with fabrial technology.

Not really. Most orders attract a spectrum of different people and while some tend to gravitate towards specific ones, being a Stoneward doesn't exclude you from being a scientist (but scientists are more likely to be Truthwatchers, Elsecallers or Lightweavers).

12 hours ago, Nydus said:

I think an intelligent Artifabrian who wants to expand or push the limits of fabrial technology who also commands the Surges of a Stoneward would be incredibly powerful -- possibly even world-breaking. So, I'm wondering if there's something about either "vocation" (for lack of a better term) that would make those jobs mutually exclusive or opposed to each other.

After all, what Artifabrian wouldn't love to be able to do to gems what a Stoneward Radiant can do to rocks? Especially since artifabrians would be very interested in procuring a steady supply of perfect gemstones, right?

If I were going to play the Cosmere TTRPG, I'd be interested in trying to create the kind of character who is both a Stoneward Radiant and an artifabrian... assuming that's even possible.

That would be quite a useful combination, but it all hinges on one assumption - Tension and Cohesion can modify or even create gemstones. I find this very, very unlikely. Even with Soulcasting you can't make gemstones, I doubt you could do it with Stoneshaping or Tension. It's possible they would be able to purify a gemstone and change its shape, but that probably would require a skilled Stoneward. Using those powers to make metal cages would be handy and possible. 

 

Please avoid double posting - it's against the Shard's policy. You can edit your previous post by clicking the three dots menu in the top right corner of your post and choose the "edit" option. Here are some more useful tips if you're interested: Sharder FAQ

 

[Nydus]

Thanks for letting me know about policy against double-posting. Sorry about that. I had tried to edit my post earlier to add more info, but that was blocked by some other protocols of the website, so I did the next best thing that worked. I'll try to avoid that in the future.

 

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

That would be quite a useful combination, but it all hinges on one assumption - Tension and Cohesion can modify or even create gemstones. I find this very, very unlikely. Even with Soulcasting you can't make gemstones, I doubt you could do it with Stoneshaping or Tension. It's possible they would be able to purify a gemstone and change its shape, but that probably would require a skilled Stoneward. Using those powers to make metal cages would be handy and possible.

You're right; my idea does fundamentally require Tension and Cohesion being able to modify and/or create un-Invested gemstones. Is your basis for thinking otherwise primarily based on Soulcasters not being able to do so? Or are there additional reasons which make this seem more unlikely? My thinking is that Soulcasters may be powerful, but they are relatively simple applications of Investiture, especially if they are made of spren who willingly became such devices. Soulcasters may be strong, but they are not particularly subtle in what they do, meaning that there aren't a lot of options for customization of parameters. I think one can't really "adjust the dials" with Soulcasters so much as one just "pushes a button" to get them to perform a pre-determined, limited-scope function. I suspect that the fabrials being developed in Rhythm of War (by the artifabrians working with Navani) are already becoming more complex than Soulcasters are.

Personally, barring any other as-yet-unrevealed Surge-specific or Cosmere-specific limitations, I'm currently of the opinion that perfecting un-Invested gemstones -- or even forming them out of the required base elements -- should be reasonably within the grasp of a Stoneward having Tension and Cohesion. It may not be the easiest thing ever, but it also shouldn't be the most difficult task.

Now, why would I say that?

I once did some simple online research on what gems are for an MMORPG I used to play because of how gems related to the game's magic. So, in order for a gem to be identified as a gem of any given type, the essential properties it must have, the gem must have one of out of six appropriate crystal systems, and the gem must also be the right color, according to gemologists. Metal atoms at various key places within the molecular structure of a gemstone are usually what give a gem the particular color that it has. Sometimes radiation also is involved in providing color, if certain atoms in the base mineral have been irradiated.

If you'd like to see a table of the basic crystal systems and which gems make use of which crystal system structure, there's a handy table here at the International Gem Society (hereafter IGS) website here. According to the IGS, gems are configured into 5 different crystal systems, namely:

1. Cubic
2. Tetragonal
3. Hexagonal
4. Trigonal
5. Orthorhombic

Minor notes for clarification:

A - It may be too much specific detail for the purposes of this discussion, but perhaps it's worth pointing out, as the IGS does, that some gemologists classify Trigonal as a subset of Hexagonal.)

B - Also, I assume that the Cosmere has the same basic physical and material properties as our universe, except for the weird things that Investure does to it, so I'm relying on the scientific Principle of Uniformity with our material universe, unless specifically contradicted otherwise per something Sanderson has said, written, or confirmed.

C - In order to keep things simple, I'm also going to assume that Smokestone is the same as "smoky quartz" from real life. Again, that could be contested, but I'm trying to do the best I can with the limited information available. Based on the name, it makes sense for now until something falsifies that assumption.

Below, I've created a PNG table of the 10 Polestone Gems shown on the Spheres - Coppermind page, based on what real-world properties they have. I've had to make some educated guesses and Internet Google searches about some of the metals involved for these gems, based on the colors known to be canon for each gem used in the Stormlight Archive, since -- for example -- Zircon can be lots of different colors, but since the canon color of Zircon is listed as "deep teal," I searched for what Inclusion would make it become that color specifically. Ergo, some of this information is necessarily simplified and contestable, but hopefully it's still useful. My apologies, I tried to do it as HTML first, but the forum blocked me.

 

So... if a Stoneward can molecularly configure a mineral into the right crystal system and swap out certain metals in the required structure or mix in the proper metallic Inclusions, then a Stoneward theoretically should be able to create gems and even perfect gems. This also assumes that a Stoneward's usage of the Surges of Tension and Cohesion permit micro-control at the molecular or atomic level, which so far at least in my opinion, doesn't seem beyond the bounds of possibility. If a Stoneward is already capable of making things extraordinarily hard that are normally not so or capable of reshaping rock into steps that retain their shape after the effects of the Surgebinding (which would require reshuffling of molecular bonds and configurations within the molecular structure of the stone itself), then doing the same operations to a gemstone doesn't seem out of bounds to me. It would just require refined control.

I assume that at least one Stoneward was involved in the shaping of Urithuru and that the different strata of minerals which appear in the walls were intentionally placed, so some extent of micro-control like what I am suggesting must be possible. But can such control be extended to the degree of refining gemstones? It's just a matter of whether the principles involved in the Surges of Tension and Cohesion can be made to apply to that extent, because it's not a question of whether those Surges can affect the minerals involved, which are quite common in rocks, at least in our world. Rather, the challenge would be using the Surges to create the proper crystal system configurations of the appropriate elements and metals involved.

Edited August 27, 2024 by Nydus

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Nydus said:

You're right; my idea does fundamentally require Tension and Cohesion being able to modify and/or create un-Invested gemstones. Is your basis for thinking otherwise primarily based on Soulcasters not being able to do so? Or are there additional reasons which make this seem more unlikely? My thinking is that Soulcasters may be powerful, but they are relatively simple applications of Investiture, especially if they are made of spren who willingly became such devices. Soulcasters may be strong, but they are not particularly subtle in what they do, meaning that there aren't a lot of options for customization of parameters. I think one can't really "adjust the dials" with Soulcasters so much as one just "pushes a button" to get them to perform a pre-determined, limited-scope function. I suspect that the fabrials being developed in Rhythm of War (by the artifabrians working with Navani) are already becoming more complex than Soulcasters are.

I'm not talking about Fabrial Soulcasters, I'm talking about Soulcasting - the Surge of Transformation. Soulcasting is everything but simple. It can create complex organic structures like jam or bread, it can create steel which requires precise microscopic structure, it can create anything as long as the Soulcaster understands it. The essence of Vev can even create quartz and crystal but Soulcasting is STILL incapable of creating polestones. This alone suggests that there is something special to gemstones that prevents investiture from creating it. Mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

Maybe this is because gemhearts are related to god metals and they grow in Rosharan life in a similar way to how Atium grew in the Pits - it’s leaking from the SR? Maybe gemstones spiritually are more like a god metal than a simple crystal and that's why it's almost impossible for investiture to affect it?

Spoiler

Viper (paraphrased)

The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's similar. The Pits are an area where there's like a leak from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical. That's what happens there.

A Memory of Light Milford Signing (Feb. 16, 2013)

 

 

7 hours ago, Nydus said:

I assume that at least one Stoneward was involved in the shaping of Urithuru and that the different strata of minerals which appear in the walls were intentionally placed, so some extent of micro-control like what I am suggesting must be possible.

Stoneshaping was probably used to create the Tower, but the metal and crystal veins in its wall are the Sibling's body. They are like a Shardblade, they weren't created, they were manifested in the Physical Realm from a spren. The entire Tower is one giant fabrial encased in stone. RoW ch 83:

Quote

There was a spren that lived here. Not dead, as Raboniel had once proclaimed. This spren was the veins of the tower, its inner metal and crystal running through walls, ceilings, floors.
The stones had not been created by that spren, though a grand project had reshaped them. Reshaped Ur, the original mountain that had been here before. The stones remembered being that mountain.

 

 

Overall, I agree. If it's possible to create/change gemstones, a Stoneward would be capable of interesting feats for reasons you brilliantly explained - but this all hinges on that one big if. There is something special about gemstones that distinguishes them from other crystals and simple quartzes and this property alone seem to prevent investiture from manipulating them.

[Nydus]

Sorry I'm being so slow on reply. I do intend to continue this conversation, so this is mostly a place-holder reply until I can do the research I want to do and edit it later.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by Soulcasting. It's a bit embarrassing that I forgot about that Surge, but I did. One of my plans to give a proper reply to your previous post is to look up every instance of the use of the Surge of Soulcasting in the Stormlight Archive to date (through Book Four) and see what has been revealed is possible to do with it. Unfortunately, that will take me a while. I might not get done with that until Book Five is released, but we'll see. If nothing else, I will have better educated myself about what is possible.

On 8/27/2024 at 9:28 PM, alder24 said:

  Hide contents

Maybe this is because gemhearts are related to god metals and they grow in Rosharan life in a similar way to how Atium grew in the Pits - it’s leaking from the SR? Maybe gemstones spiritually are more like a god metal than a simple crystal and that's why it's almost impossible for investiture to affect it?

  Hide contents

Viper (paraphrased)

The gemhearts/stormgems/whatever that are grown inside the beasts in Way of Kings ... is that the same as the way atium is grown inside geodes in the Pits of Hathsin?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's similar. The Pits are an area where there's like a leak from the Spiritual Realm into the Physical. That's what happens there.

A Memory of Light Milford Signing (Feb. 16, 2013)

Spoiler

In response to this above, I could be wrong, of course, but I am skeptical that Rosharan gems have that kind of origin. This could be a false equivalency, but it seems a bit like special pleading, since color doesn't seem to have any special origin on Nalthis, nor do the majority of metals on Scadrial seem to have any kind of special origin. Gems literally growing in Greatshells and Parshendi/Singers as gemhearts is certainly a highly unusual way for gems to be formed rather than extreme pressure and heat at different levels of geological strata (even though that also seems to happen on Roshar as well, since gems have been mined there, but they need not have a similar kind of cause-effect relationship to the Shards in the Rosharan solar system in the same (or even similar) way that Atium has to Ruin.

Now, one way to test whether Rosharan gems have unique properties from gems on other worlds in the way that you described would be to see if the gems -- specifically if they have been formed on other worlds outside the Rosharan system -- are capable of holding Stormlight.

As a reminder for later, I would also like to talk further about the idea of "perfect gems," as that phrase seems a bit silly to me, due to being logically inconsistent in potentially one or more ways, just based on the usual properties of gemstones and how they form. But I'm wondering if it would be better just to start a new thread about that?