Trusk'our he/him Posted August 22, 2024 Posted August 22, 2024 A Savant is capable of using their Investiture with far greater control, efficiency, and in a broader way than a non-Savant can. This last part in particular makes me wonder, would a Savant be able to discover deeper uses and more fundamental discoveries about their powers? For example, would a Coinshot or Lurcher Savant be able to realize they can see as an Inquisitor can with their Allomancy? Could a Thug realistically learn to harness Pewter's other hypothetical mind-over-matter abilities? Perhaps a Seeker could learn to hum the Rhythms independently by feeling the Spiritual Pulses more deeply and intuitively. Maybe Soulcasters could learn techniques Radiants would struggle with, such as creating a more complex device entirely from Soulcasting. In any case, thoughts? 2
Lego Mistborn he/him Posted August 22, 2024 Posted August 22, 2024 I think this is kinda confirmed by the text, though not stated as "a savant can discover deeper uses of their powers". For example, Wax learns how to do that shield thingy, which definitely falls under that umbrella in my opinion. And I believe there are examples of allomancers who aren't inquisitors using steelsight since WoA.
+Lewis Nethur He/Him Posted August 25, 2024 Posted August 25, 2024 On 8/22/2024 at 11:22 AM, Trusk'our said: A Savant is capable of using their Investiture with far greater control, efficiency, and in a broader way than a non-Savant can. This last part in particular makes me wonder, would a Savant be able to discover deeper uses and more fundamental discoveries about their powers? For example, would a Coinshot or Lurcher Savant be able to realize they can see as an Inquisitor can with their Allomancy? Could a Thug realistically learn to harness Pewter's other hypothetical mind-over-matter abilities? Perhaps a Seeker could learn to hum the Rhythms independently by feeling the Spiritual Pulses more deeply and intuitively. Maybe Soulcasters could learn techniques Radiants would struggle with, such as creating a more complex device entirely from Soulcasting. In any case, thoughts? Honestly, from what I've observed, leaning into the occasional half-insane savant's barely discernable explanations is how humanity "discovers" a statistically significant (very disproportionately large) portion of its real life novel scientific, technological, and artistic principles. It absolutely makes sense that the capabilities and nuances of savantism run far deeper than has been revealed on page in the cosmere, yes. If you believe that the person who designed the trap-hallway to protect the FAKE bands of mourning was just some regular dude who was definitely all the way there cognitively and emotionally, then you're as bonkers as they were. Heck...I'd bet a month's pay that 80% of Khriss' ars arcanum is copied verbatim from sources that most magic users and worldhoppers would consider clinically insane if they were asked in public. 2
Treamayne Posted August 25, 2024 Posted August 25, 2024 (edited) 50 minutes ago, hwiles said: .I'd bet a month's pay that 80% of Khriss' ars arcanum is copied verbatim from sources that most magic users and worldhoppers would consider clinically insane if they were asked in public. Have you read the White Sand Omnibus? The various Ars Arcanum fit her style of scientific method as shown in her very first Ars Arcanum, though I would agree she has probably observed and talked to Savants (as seen in BoM) as part of her research. On 8/22/2024 at 1:45 PM, Lego Mistborn said: For example, Wax learns how to do that shield thingy, I think it's been confirmed that Wax's ability is not due to Savantism (though it was originally intended to be such). Spoiler Quote Brandon Sanderson Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision. Argent Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around. Brandon Sanderson Evgeni, So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.) And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences. That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore. So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.) Feel free to share this. Argent Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)? Brandon Sanderson I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance." The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books. Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon. Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016) Quote Argent Have we seen the resonances of either Wax or Wayne? Brandon Sanderson Yes, well, Wax is really good at sculpting bullets and things away from him. Argent The bubble. Brandon Sanderson Yeah and things like this. This is playing with the fact that he is-- Let's just say that the abilities make this happen, and I’ll let you theorize on why, but it's just an enhancement to what he can do. Argent I might be wrong, but I thought you said it was because he was becoming a steel savant. Brandon Sanderson A savant, yeah, definitely, but this is what this is coming from. Argent But being a savant has to do with being really good with one power-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent --and resonances-- Brandon Sanderson Being a savant has to do with using Investiture a lot, and it's starting to permeate your soul. Like we've ta-- Argent So he's more a savant with both of-- Brandon Sanderson He's used them a lot, and they are changing his soul, and so the powers are morphing and changing. Just in slight, little ways. You're not gonna see a whole bunch. But you can imagine these two separate powers are kind of becoming one to him. Argent Yeah I can see that. And Wayne? Brandon Sanderson So Wayne's is not as obvious. I'll go ahead and RAFO that right now. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) So, Wax is not a savant (and does not display Savant-like consequences like Spook and Kaza). Edited August 25, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG/Examples
Lego Mistborn he/him Posted August 25, 2024 Posted August 25, 2024 23 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Wax's ability is not due to Savantism Yeah, I wasn't sure on that, I think it's similar for savants however. 1
Treamayne Posted August 25, 2024 Posted August 25, 2024 3 minutes ago, Lego Mistborn said: Yeah, I wasn't sure on that, I think it's similar for savants however. I can agree that Savants do gain a deeper understanding of their abilities, and we have WoBs that they can learn tecniques difficult or impossible for a normal user of that MoI. Spoiler Quote Questioner So my quick question: Can you use Identity (I love the speed bubbles!) to anchor speed bubbles to yourself? Brandon Sanderson Uh, this is possible. That's less a matter of Identity. What’s gonna happen there, like, the more someone uses the powers, the more familiar and intermingled with their soul the powers become, and they are able to accomplish things that others can't. This would be like a Mistborn learning to hover a coin, right, which they can do, but most think you can't. That's the sort of level we're going with. Necarion So a savant could? Brandon Sanderson A savant could totally do that. The problem is, things moving in and out of a speed bubble, there's a transference of energy. This is how we keep speed bubbles from irradiating people when light moves through them, right, red shift. And so there's a transfer of energy directly from the Spiritual Realm, which means that moving with a speed bubble, you're gonna run into that, and it's gonna be, it's gonna cause all kinds of problems, but it would be possible. Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016) Quote Alterodent If a hermit were to take a whole lot of cadmium and go off and live by himself, how far within a lifetime, reasonably, could he get into the future by essentially time-capsuling himself? Assuming they live to be 70 or 75. Brandon Sanderson They could get pretty far. Alterodent What would the savantism do to them? Brandon Sanderson The savantism would probably allow them to get further… It’s completely reasonable… you can treat this like relativistic travel. Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016) Quote Questioner There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too? Brandon Sanderson That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power. Questioner So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds? Brandon Sanderson Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes. Questioner So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds? Brandon Sanderson Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force. Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015) etc. . . there are a lot So, some things are skill-based, but not necessarily requiring Savant-level investiture warping (Kelsier's skill with pushes and pulls, and pushing on areas other than the center of gravity), some are Brute Force (the theoretical Elend learning to pierce Copper) and some may only happen to a Savant as they merge their soul with their MoI.
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