Acolyte of Radiance Posted July 10, 2024 Posted July 10, 2024 (edited) Hey guys,second theory and a huge one! y’all notice Hoid has primarily bigger roles in books that feature 17? Yumi… Spoiler 1700 years ago virtuosity was shattered, he is the narrator etc The final mistborn era two book Spoiler While he doesn’t say it, Wayne uses 17 a lot (scales, 17pouches of metal)he picks up our boy wax Stormlight book 1 Spoiler 17th shard searching for him And I forgot which book, I think oathbringer Spoiler He says he turns down what the others took(shard) Does this mean that during the Spoiler Shattering of adol There was the possibility of a 17th shard, he turned it down,something happened to that power,maybe got distributed across cosmere and creating other smaller magic systems(sunlight man,didn’t have a shard and had their own,but it was weak),and the 17th shard is searching for this to try to reforge or do something potentially to this lost power. one more thing Spoiler Somewhere Hoid says he is at ends with wisdom, maybe his shard was experience? Idkthis is a crack pot theory I have been thinking of, probably not true Edited July 10, 2024 by Acolyte of Radiance 1
alder24 Posted July 10, 2024 Posted July 10, 2024 There is no need for all those spoiler boxes in the Cosmere section, unless you're discussing preview material, or books that are in the spoiler period. There is no new books in the spoiler period and if you warn about preview materials in the title, you don't have to put anything in a spoiler box (like if you want to discuss something from SA5 prologue, just put [SA5] in the title and you don't have to use any spoiler boxes in your topic). In other sections, like SA, you have to put anything that isn't from SA in a spoiler box, but you don't have to hide information from SA (unless it's a preview thing) - the section is all about SA, so no need to hide anything in your own topic. 1 minute ago, Acolyte of Radiance said: And I forgot which book, I think oathbringer Hide contents He says he turns down what the others took(shard) Does this mean that during the Hide contents Shattering of adol There was the possibility of a 17th shard, he turned it down Yes, Hoid was offered one of the Shard, but refused it. However he was offered one of the 16 Shards, which someone else took it instead (most likely Virtuosity). There would not be a 17th Shard if Hoid accepted this offer. There are only 16 Shards in Cosmere, but it was possible to Shatter Adonalsium in a different way and different Shards in different numbers would be created, but this didn't happen. There is no 17th Shard. WoBs: Spoiler Paladin Brewer We know that Hoid was offered a Shard and turned it down. Was he offered a specific Shard? Brandon Sanderson He was. There is one of the Shards that he would've-- yeah. Paladin Brewer Would he have been the 17th person or did someone take his place? Brandon Sanderson No. Someone took his place. Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018) Spoiler Questioner Is Virtuosity the Shard Hoid turned down? Could it have become something different if he were the one who took it? Brandon Sanderson It could have become something different slightly. But if he had taken it it would have remained as Virtuosity. That does have some influence over. That is a very good guess. I'm not going to tell you yes or no, I'm just going to tell you you made a very good guess. Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022) Spoiler Questioner If Sazed got bored one day, could he split the two Shards he has? Brandon Sanderson Read And Find Out. Questioner So for right now, there are fifteen Shards? Brandon Sanderson Right now, there are sixteen Shards, but fifteen Vessels. Well, not even that, 'cause, you know. Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018) Spoiler James Furr If, instead of the 16, there had been 20 members at the Shattering of Adonalsium (with the same level of involvedness)...could it have Shattered into 20 pieces? Brandon Sanderson It's quite possible that a different number could have ended up working. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018) Spoiler Paladin Brewer Was it necessary that Adonalsium split into sixteen Shards, or was it happenstance? Brandon Sanderson I will RAFO that one. Paladin Brewer Would the number or intents have been different, if there were more or less people? Brandon Sanderson That's all wrapped up in that RAFO. Let's say it's conceivable that the split could have happened in different ways. Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017) But it's very interesting that the number 17 is appearing so much, especially in TLM. It may indicate something, it may be a reference to the organization of the 17th Shard, or it may be just a joke. 16 minutes ago, Acolyte of Radiance said: something happened to that power,maybe got distributed across cosmere and creating other smaller magic systems(sunlight man,didn’t have a shard and had their own,but it was weak),and the 17th shard is searching for this to try to reforge or do something potentially to this lost power. Every Shard is present in the entire Cosmere, not everyone is aware of this (because while the power is infinite, Shard's mind isn't and it can't grasp that infinity). Their power is much weaker in those other worlds, but it still leaks and manifests as invested arts (magic systems). This does not always come from any one Shard in particular, but it can. On Ashyn magic is mostly associated with Cultivation, because it's in the Rosharan system where Cultivation is settled. On the First of the Sun it's most likely of Autonomy, because Patji the island is an Avatar of Autonomy (Autonomy was exploring her power, she became aware that her power is present in this system and she tweaked it making an Avatar). Canticle on the other hand was directly created by some powerful being (probably a Shard) as a megastructure device that has some purpose. Investiture is everywhere in Cosmere and it will manifest invested arts even when there is no Shard present in the system. Those magic systems will be much weaker than those from words where Shards reside. Spoiler Questioner What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun? Brandon Sanderson The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence. Questioner I'm assuming there is not one there? Brandon Sanderson There is not one there. Questioner So it's like a Splintered one from something else? Brandon Sanderson No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature... Questioner So there is inherent Investiture... Brandon Sanderson There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren. Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014) Spoiler Overlord Jebus Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler Questioner You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is? Brandon Sanderson A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested. All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021) Spoiler msyverw So, what's up with Canticle? You've got the sunlight, it appears to be Invested and then the planet's core is trying to suck it up. And you know, where does it go after it does that, and... Brandon Sanderson Yeah, Canticle was built for a very specific purpose by a very powerful being in the Cosmere, that I will someday get to. You're going to see some more stuff like this. Basically, megastructures that imitate planets or other sort of heavenly bodies. msyverw So it's not like some avatar of Autonomy or something like that? Brandon Sanderson It's not an avatar of anything, it was built for a specific purpose, yes. Just wait til I get to the Grand Apparatus, you're gonna love that. What was that voice that talked about a future Cosmere planet? Hmm! Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) Spoiler ReadAndFindOut In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think? Brandon Sanderson I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect. But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun. The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.) Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there. That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations. I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn. But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.) Oversleep Wait. I'm confused. So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium? Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard. And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun. But now you're saying it didn't? If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually? Could you please clarify all that? Brandon Sanderson So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?" The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three. When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing. I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time. We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have. Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists. You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring. Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time. I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers... Overlord Jebus You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals). Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard? Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now. Brandon Sanderson I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story. Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it. Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story. I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one. Chaos Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple. Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though. General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) 4
Acolyte of Radiance Posted July 10, 2024 Author Posted July 10, 2024 Makes sense, thanks for the info!
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