magic system Need Help With A Soul Weaving Magic System

[NiightLiight]

Hey everyone! This is my first time posting, and I wanna ask for help for creating a magic system based on transmutation and soulcasting from Stormlight Archive. 

I am not sure what to call it yet, but so far I thought of just calling it Animancy or Runeweaving something similar because the core concept of this magic system is that all objects have a (anima) soul, and that soul is basically the definition we attach to these objects. For example, a door is not just a piece of wood because we see it as a method of entering another place, therefore the identity or soul of the door is different from a piece of wood. 

One of the biggest problem I am having right now is how similar this is to the idea of soulcasting in Stormlight, and also to the concept of identity. Is there a way I can make my magic system different? While this magic system is based off of the concept of Plato's philosophy, soulcasting, and transmutation, I want a unique system of magic even if the core concept of it is the same.

While soulcasting is part of a larger system of Surgebinding, I am seeing my magic system as the larger system itself. An example of a difference I thought about would be the use of runes to transform objects instead of stormlight and gems. These runes are able to change the anima of an object and make them something else. Basically, I am trying for the first time to do some worldbuilding and writing a novel but I don't want to accidently copy Sanderson's soulcasting. 

Any advice, suggestions, or criticisms would all be welcomed! I am at my wit's end here so I need help

[Quantus he/him]

Fun!  My first piece of advice would be to not get discouraged and not get too caught up on being 100% original or unique, everything has influence.  

The way to make it feel different is to play with it's strengths and limitations.  For a Cosmere example, Forgery is pretty close to Soulcasting but requires Stamps, is Temporary, and has a Likelihood requirement that is used to reign in it's application.  But it also allows for far more intricate and detailed control compared to Soulcasting that needs to be modified by pure Intent from the base Essences.  

So lets talk your system.  For conversation let say the technical term for the magic is Animancy but Runeweaving (and Runeweavers) is the more common name folks actually use because the Runes are the most visible aspect of it.  

For some starter questions:

• If not Stormlight, what is the Power driving (and limiting) the scale of what they can do?  Ley Lines? Natural-born internal Magic reserve (and rest to recharge)?  Special Rune reagents (inks, metal inlay, special stamp stone, etc) that have quality-based limits?
• What are some examples of easy vs difficult Transmutations?
• Are you Altering the Identity of a single object or are you Combining them from collected sources? If altering, How and How much?  If combining, how do you go about it?
  • For the Door example, would you be changing the Door from an Entry to a Barrier to make it impassible?  Might you take the Entry from it with a rune and add it to a wall to grow a doorway, almost like object Hemalurgy (or alchemy as Ive seen it in a few other series)?
• Where do the Runes come in, are they custom each time like Forgery or do they represent categories more like essences? 

[NiightLiight]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

For some starter questions:

• If not Stormlight, what is the Power driving (and limiting) the scale of what they can do?  Ley Lines? Natural-born internal Magic reserve (and rest to recharge)?  Special Rune reagents (inks, metal inlay, special stamp stone, etc) that have quality-based limits?
• What are some examples of easy vs difficult Transmutations?
• Are you Altering the Identity of a single object or are you Combining them from collected sources? If altering, How and How much?  If combining, how do you go about it?
  • For the Door example, would you be changing the Door from an Entry to a Barrier to make it impassible?  Might you take the Entry from it with a rune and add it to a wall to grow a doorway, almost like object Hemalurgy (or alchemy as Ive seen it in a few other series)?
• Where do the Runes come in, are they custom each time like Forgery or do they represent categories more like essences? 

hmm these are some really good questions to think about, and I have been thinking all day today about my questions and came up with these:

• Rune weaving should be changed to rune carving, and maybe users are called Runecarvers. 
• I want to focus on the Ethereal realm (Etheria) which is basically a cognitive realm or spiritual realm that a person's cognitive aspects rest in. From this realm, in the material realm there are Ley Lines which is where power from Etheria seeps out since it is close to the material realm. Usually ley lines appear in places with important meanings, such as a place where a lot of lives was lost or basically places with a lot of history or Chronis. 
• About whether I am altering or combining the Identity of objects, it will be tricky because I can't exactly see how I can take the sharp property of a sword and place it on a door. I still haven't thought of exactly what these properties will be so this will need some more serious thinking. Therefore, I thought of something really cool that would be a lot easier to impliment:
  • Perhaps the properties are not borrowed or altered, but they are enhanced. That way, a sword becomes sharper, a wall becomes tougher, or water can become colder and freeze or evaporate. This basically follows the physical properties of objects taught scientifically. If i can somehow add in modifications of the chemical properties of objects this can get really interesting. 
  • The problem with this is that I cannot see how to incorporate rune carving into this... maybe that is related to changing the chemical properties, while changing the physical properties of an object is more of a cantrip type of magic which doesn't use runes? 
  • If i will still use the manipulation of the properties of objects, perhaps I will need to clarify that each object has a specific set of properties, such as a door being an entrance, wood, or a cup being glass (don't know how to describe its function). Anyways, basically the properties of an object consists of its function and materials, but then another problem is then diving into what exactly the "base" materials are, or the "base" functions or else all objects are going to each have different functions. So it will be very confusing...
• I think the power driving and limiting the use of runecarving would be something external. I was playing with the idea that emotions are drained as runecarving is done, but it didn't really make sense, so I changed it to something else. It needs to be some type of energy, maybe something from the ethereal realm? In my world named Astralis, the Dawnbird (a phoenix) is basically the world's god or daemon, so i was thinking about something like maybe the runecarvers need to "burn" or "ignite" themselves with sunfire to do runecarving, and the danger is that they can heat up and burn to ashes.

I'm not sure if all of this makes sense or not... If you have any more suggestions that would be great!!!

Edited June 6, 2024 by NiightLiight

[Quantus he/him]

6 minutes ago, NiightLiight said:

hmm these are some really good questions to think about, and I have been thinking all day today about my questions and came up with these:

• Rune weaving should be changed to rune carving, and maybe users are called Runecarvers. 
• I want to focus on the Ethereal realm (Etheria) which is basically a cognitive realm or spiritual realm that a person's cognitive aspects rest in. From this realm, in the material realm there are Ley Lines which is where power from Etheria seeps out since it is close to the material realm. Usually ley lines appear in places with important meanings, such as a place where a lot of lives was lost or basically places with a lot of history or Chronis. 

 

 

Excellent!

As you say, lets focus on the Etheria (Etherea?).  Correct me if I have anything wrong; Ill try to explore the idea assuming no unmentioned Limitations, so if anything feels like it's running off the rails of what you envision, it might be a good spot to add an in-world limitation. 

• In summary, Power flows from the Ethereal (Etherial?) realm. It gathers in places of Importance to the mortal Sentient population (Only Humans?). 
• This means the magic overall will be dependent on what the current living Generations believe, Value, and Fear. 
• The Ley Line mechanic will promote a culture of large scale Organization (religion, government, guilds etc) to control and focus and manipulate the necessary weight of Chronis Belief.  On the flip side it Secret Societies wont really have a lot of power unless they gain Power from being Mysterious.  
• Ley Lines will also heavily incentivize the building of physical Monuments at locations of importance to preserve their a stories and keep them remembered and relevant in the eyes of the living population, so they can predict and tap those Places of Power along thematic lines.  Battlefields for War Runes, Courthouses for The Weighing of Truth, Libraries for Science&Learning, etc.  
• It also means different People will be able to tap different levels of Power from a given location based on how much they personally value and/or Align with the energies of that Ley Line. So an academic can tap more power in a Library, a priest/Believer in their own Church, a King on his own Throne, pretty much Anyone in their own Home, etc. 
• It also could mean that current events will cause Temporary Ley Lines to emerge as theya re happening, if they are dramatic enough.  This lets your characters get Power Surges through key events or surges of emotion, since the random spot on the road becomes VERY important to the people being ambushed on it and suddenly find themselves fighting for their lives.  It wont stay important for very long or to anyone else, but it allows for situational Flair-ups of Power.
• Idea: Consider the addition of Regalia items, objects of Power that represent and focus the Chronis of a Respected Office of Power so much that they act as a mobile Ley Line for the people Empowered to Wear/Use them: A King's Crown, a Champion's Sword, a Pope's Vestments, etc

6 minutes ago, NiightLiight said:

 

• About whether I am altering or combining the Identity of objects, it will be tricky because I can't exactly see how I can take the sharp property of a sword and place it on a door. I still haven't thought of exactly what these properties will be so this will need some more serious thinking. Therefore, I thought of something really cool that would be a lot easier to impliment:
  • Perhaps the properties are not borrowed or altered, but they are enhanced. That way, a sword becomes sharper, a wall becomes tougher, or water can become colder and freeze or evaporate. This basically follows the physical properties of objects taught scientifically. If i can somehow add in modifications of the chemical properties of objects this can get really interesting. 
  • The problem with this is that I cannot see how to incorporate rune carving into this... maybe that is related to changing the chemical properties, while changing the physical properties of an object is more of a cantrip type of magic which doesn't use runes? 

Ok, I phrased it as a choice but there's no big reason to limit the whole magic system to a type of expression (Enhance vs Move, etc).  These are things that can be All of the Above and just accessed by difference schools of magic and/or cultures, or even just tiers of skills and mastery that allow for more difficult/dangerous things.

For the Sword-To-Door instance, there are two basic ways you can take it. Either Rune shifts that dont really make sense simply fail, or else the target goes through more overt changes to make it happen.  So trying to make a Door Shark might just Fail, or it might grow sword-like Spikes.  Adding the same Sharp-Rune to a staff could make a Spear or Mace, and adding it to fists could make natural-ish claws or (the more gross) bone spike knuckle protrusions.  

6 minutes ago, NiightLiight said:

• I think the power driving and limiting the use of runecarving would be something external. I was playing with the idea that emotions are drained as runecarving is done, but it didn't really make sense, so I changed it to something else. It needs to be some type of energy, maybe something from the ethereal realm? In my world named Astralis, the Dawnbird (a phoenix) is basically the world's god or daemon, so i was thinking about something like maybe the runecarvers need to "burn" or "ignite" themselves with sunfire to do runecarving, and the danger is that they can heat up and burn to ashes.

I'm not sure if all of this makes sense or not... If you have any more suggestions that would be great!!!

Sounds interesting! Is this bird a denizen of Etheria or the physical world?  Is there a culturally relevant Volcano east of them where it lives, or maybe a Sun theme if it's not a physical resident most of the time?  Does it have a Duskbird persona or counterpart?

 

For how Runes actually work and are applied, etc, we're touched on a few different paths.  Im just going to spitt-ball some ideas that Ive seen done before, any or all of them could be present in your world:

• Object Trait Stamping: Stamp or Carve a Rune shape into an object to get a magical Effect.  Ex: Stamp a Sword with Sharpness to make it super-sharp, a Shield with Durability to make it harder to break, etc.
  • Is it possible to Stamp Liquids or Gasses? 
  • Is it purely a matter of Shape or is there a special Inlay material, etc that is needed and/or consumed from use?  Can you make water flow in a rune pattern to affect it with the magic, or does the surface need to be physically staped/carved somehow? Would a projected light Rune work (since Dawn and Sunlight are themes)?
  • Do runes last forever once made or are they erased with enough use or over-use?
• Object Trait transfer:  "Harvest" Sharpness from a Sword and stamp it on a staff to get a Sharp Staff or a Spear, or on another Sword to get a Double-Sharp sword.
  • Harvest "Entryway" from a Doorway and stamp it onto a Wall to make a Doorway Form.
  • Does Harvest mean stamp one object to charge the stamp and then the 2nd object to impart the trait?  Is the donor sword destroyed in the process, or does destroying it end the augmentation effect?
• Self Augment Tattoo/Brands: Carve Runes into yourself and then activate them to turn on Power, risk Fire damage from over-use.  Probably nice visuals to distinguish active/inactive state.

 

 

 

There are two fiction series that you might consider reading, both because they are awesome and because they explore similar mechanics. 

One is the Runelords series, set in a high fantasy kingdom where peoples traits can be transferred to others and thus stockpiled in the wealthy, but the donors much be kept alive in special assisted living temples. So the average royal gets at least double intelligence and health, extra strength and speed, etc., some transfer animal traits to humans (like Dog Scent abilities, etc) but it's not well regarded. Their whole society is based around the ruling classes being literally Empowered by their followers to be better than a normal person, but explores how that can also go very wrong.  

The other is the Cold Fire Trilogy, which is an extreme example of a setting with Ley Line based power that all reacts to and scales with what people Value, so much that Nightmares come alive at night and there are some powers only massive organized Religion can touch. 

[NiightLiight]

9 hours ago, Quantus said:

• The Ley Line mechanic will promote a culture of large scale Organization (religion, government, guilds etc) to control and focus and manipulate the necessary weight of Chronis Belief.  On the flip side it Secret Societies wont really have a lot of power unless they gain Power from being Mysterious.  
• Ley Lines will also heavily incentivize the building of physical Monuments at locations of importance to preserve their a stories and keep them remembered and relevant in the eyes of the living population, so they can predict and tap those Places of Power along thematic lines.  Battlefields for War Runes, Courthouses for The Weighing of Truth, Libraries for Science&Learning, etc.  

This is great! It is similar to what I thought about Belief, so maybe Etherea's energy gathers in places where people have a strong Belief. So maybe my world can be religion focused. However, Ley Lines can also concentrate at other significant places. I have not thought about the division of power at different locations and exactly how that works, but I love your ideas about the Places of Power, so I will do some more world building for Astralis and think about places where people would have a strong Belief. 

Also from what I previously mentioned about Chronis, it is basically the History of an object or location. Its basically a universal term for memories, so for example two swords made exactly the same way could have a different Chronis based on their different uses and history. Lets say one sword was for decoration while the other is frequently used by a soldier. These two swords would no longer be the same, but it does not mean that one is worse than the other. For the application of the concept of Chronis, it will be similar to the sword Sting in Lord of the Rings. It glows when it is close to Orcs, because its crafter held a deep hatred towards Orcs. Therefore these objects with Chronis spiritually meld towards their uses, so the sword might be able to bond with its user and become better for combat, while the decorative sword which holds memories of the family who place them there will shine brighter and meld itself to its purpose. So in summary Ley Lines gather in places of Chronis or Belief (decided to make them the same thing), and the place or object spiritually melds themselves to match their Chronis. 

9 hours ago, Quantus said:

• It also could mean that current events will cause Temporary Ley Lines to emerge as theya re happening, if they are dramatic enough.  This lets your characters get Power Surges through key events or surges of emotion, since the random spot on the road becomes VERY important to the people being ambushed on it and suddenly find themselves fighting for their lives.  It wont stay important for very long or to anyone else, but it allows for situational Flair-ups of Power.
• Idea: Consider the addition of Regalia items, objects of Power that represent and focus the Chronis of a Respected Office of Power so much that they act as a mobile Ley Line for the people Empowered to Wear/Use them: A King's Crown, a Champion's Sword, a Pope's Vestments, etc

I love the ideas of the Regalia items, since it perfectly matches what I thought about objects with Chronis. Also, the idea of Temporal Ley Lines is wonderful because the idea of a surge of power could make my plot very interesting (also allows me to subtly help my characters). Maybe my characters can even create temperory Ley Lines, similar to how Delinar Kholin can open Honor's Perpendicularity as a Bondsmith. 

10 hours ago, Quantus said:

Ok, I phrased it as a choice but there's no big reason to limit the whole magic system to a type of expression (Enhance vs Move, etc).  These are things that can be All of the Above and just accessed by difference schools of magic and/or cultures, or even just tiers of skills and mastery that allow for more difficult/dangerous things.

For the Sword-To-Door instance, there are two basic ways you can take it. Either Rune shifts that dont really make sense simply fail, or else the target goes through more overt changes to make it happen.  So trying to make a Door Shark might just Fail, or it might grow sword-like Spikes.  Adding the same Sharp-Rune to a staff could make a Spear or Mace, and adding it to fists could make natural-ish claws or (the more gross) bone spike knuckle protrusions.  

Yes that's true, I don't think I should just eliminate Runecarving entirely... but I was thinking of using the Physical and Chemical Properties of matter to make the enhancing part work, but this might seem too scientific. Right now I am stuck between two systems, where one is based on Chronis and the other is based on Enhancement. I really want to combine the two together, but I don't really know how...

I really love the idea of taking the property of one object and placing it on another. It would be more like a copy-and-pasting rather than stealing, so neither objects gets destroyed. But here another problem emerges, because I can't think of things to stop people from just infinitely adding properties to objects, except maybe a medium that runs out when people do the carving, such the the earlier Sunfire ideas, but instead of igniting, maybe Sunfire is a medium that runs out as people use it to carve. 

The other idea is based on enhancement and change, where the physical properties include their color, density, conductability, durability, malleability, etc... while the chemical properties are the object's ability to change and reaction to other substances. I also really like this system, but I can't think of a way to incorporate this to my other Chronis system without breaking the logic of both. 

10 hours ago, Quantus said:

Sounds interesting! Is this bird a denizen of Etheria or the physical world?  Is there a culturally relevant Volcano east of them where it lives, or maybe a Sun theme if it's not a physical resident most of the time?  Does it have a Duskbird persona or counterpart?

The Dawnbird is a denizen of Etheria, the spiritual Aspect of the Sun. It is basically like a god because of how strong of a belief is tied to the sun. The Duskbird is most likely the Moon? Its the same bird, but different based on the time. People believe as Dawn comes the Sun will rise, while when Dusk approaches the Moon will rise. 

10 hours ago, Quantus said:

Object Trait Stamping: Stamp or Carve a Rune shape into an object to get a magical Effect.  Ex: Stamp a Sword with Sharpness to make it super-sharp, a Shield with Durability to make it harder to break, etc.

• Is it possible to Stamp Liquids or Gasses? 
• Is it purely a matter of Shape or is there a special Inlay material, etc that is needed and/or consumed from use?  Can you make water flow in a rune pattern to affect it with the magic, or does the surface need to be physically staped/carved somehow? Would a projected light Rune work (since Dawn and Sunlight are themes)?
• Do runes last forever once made or are they erased with enough use or over-use?

 

I think this is a little different from the idea I have in mind, but I could definately incorporate some of the ideas. 

It should be possible to carve on liquids and gasses, since Runecarving should not actually be physically carving on the object. I think it manifest more as a light, because the concept of the Sun and Light is extremely important in my world. So maybe runes are traced on an object through a concentration of power, like how it is done in the book and TV series the Dragon Prince. 

For the thought on whether runes are permanent or temperory, maybe there are different types of runes, so maybe some runes are made for only a few uses while some runes are carved to last through time. Maybe it depends on how concentrated the power is, so the more power is put into a rune the longer it will stay and not dissipate. 

There should also be a tool used for carving. I don't want to use a stamp (I am really proud that Sanderson got the idea from my country though). Instead, I want to maybe use some type of drawing tool, such as a paint brush or similar. Maybe different people use different tools, so some can use a needle and thread, while some can use a sketching set, or even a stamp. Basically I want to include art since I really love art, so this might be a little similar to the idea about crafting in the Circle of Magic books. 

10 hours ago, Quantus said:

• Object Trait transfer:  "Harvest" Sharpness from a Sword and stamp it on a staff to get a Sharp Staff or a Spear, or on another Sword to get a Double-Sharp sword.
  • Harvest "Entryway" from a Doorway and stamp it onto a Wall to make a Doorway Form.
  • Does Harvest mean stamp one object to charge the stamp and then the 2nd object to impart the trait?  Is the donor sword destroyed in the process, or does destroying it end the augmentation effect?
• Self Augment Tattoo/Brands: Carve Runes into yourself and then activate them to turn on Power, risk Fire damage from over-use.  Probably nice visuals to distinguish active/inactive state.

For the trait transfer of an object, its the part that I am the most confused about. I think I should change the idea of copying and transfer to something more like the runes already hold such power, so its just more like enhancement. Therefore, objects don't trade properties but instead they gain properties. For example, carving a Durability rune on a sword might make it stronger, carving a Fragile rune at a table might make it easier to break, and carving a Barrier rune to a door might make it become impossible to open. I think that essentially makes the runes into words or codes to decode or encode Properties onto and object, or remove properties from objects. The uses of this ability will depend on the user's creativity and their understanding of the object. 

Runecarving onto oneself is an amazing possibility, but I will need to think of ways to not make this overpowered. The use of this might be similar to the concept in Dragon Prince, like where Callum painted runes on his arms and turned them into wings. I've decided to make runes temperory and the time it lasts is based on how much power was put into it, so when the sunfire (or some other cool name, basically like ink but glows) placed on the rune is exhausted, the rune disappears. There will definately be nice visuals involved in the use of runes. 

Sorry if I sprouted out too many different ideas, I think my brain went into hyper mode after seeing so much new ideas from you haha

 

10 hours ago, Quantus said:

There are two fiction series that you might consider reading, both because they are awesome and because they explore similar mechanics. 

One is the Runelords series, set in a high fantasy kingdom where peoples traits can be transferred to others and thus stockpiled in the wealthy, but the donors much be kept alive in special assisted living temples. So the average royal gets at least double intelligence and health, extra strength and speed, etc., some transfer animal traits to humans (like Dog Scent abilities, etc) but it's not well regarded. Their whole society is based around the ruling classes being literally Empowered by their followers to be better than a normal person, but explores how that can also go very wrong.  

The other is the Cold Fire Trilogy, which is an extreme example of a setting with Ley Line based power that all reacts to and scales with what people Value, so much that Nightmares come alive at night and there are some powers only massive organized Religion can touch. 

I've just looked at the wiki for these, its really interesting! I think I like the idea from Cold Fire Trilogy where ideas can manifest physically, as that would really match with my theme of the power of Belief. Also from the Runelords series I like the ideas of the traits of people being modifiable, but I don't want it to be a cut-and-pasting type of magic, I want it to just be an adding type of magic where Runes use Sunfire to carve new properties, enhance existing properties, or change existing properties. That would allow for a huge amount of versaility, much similar to spell casting but instead it is based on the traits of things. The problem I am facing now is how to combine the idea of Chronis into this system...