[SA5] What are the words (For Gavilar and Dalinar)?

[Mayalaran]

So every order has the words that they have to say to advance in their ideals, and we know that Gavilar, when he was bonded to the stormfather, was very intent on finding these words and progressing to Godhood (or something like that). In the Proulouge to stormlight five that has been released, Gavilar routinley attempts to say the words. So what are the words? The closest he gets to them is this: 

 

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far.

 

So my guess, given this passage, is that the words are: "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

Does this hold up, or am I misinterpreting? I don't care if I'm wrong or right, but I want to know if I am for sure wrong or not,

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

4 hours ago, Mayalaran said:

So every order has the words that they have to say to advance in their ideals, and we know that Gavilar, when he was bonded to the stormfather, was very intent on finding these words and progressing to Godhood (or something like that). In the Proulouge to stormlight five that has been released, Gavilar routinley attempts to say the words. So what are the words? The closest he gets to them is this: 

 

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far.

 

So my guess, given this passage, is that the words are: "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

Does this hold up, or am I misinterpreting? I don't care if I'm wrong or right, but I want to know if I am for sure wrong or not,

Oh I really like this one. May I just opine the counter-option that the final answer should be more assertive, self-assured, and resolute than "give it to me, I/they need it."?

I'm thinking more along the lines of: "give it to me...it is time."

A fully ascended bondsmith should ideally (forgive the phrase please) think, speak, and act with the intent of all of their Ideals with everything that they think, say, or do. One does not simply make demands of a godlike force of nature, and asking them for favors is just normal prayer and hopefulness. So...I'd hypothesize that he isn't going to ask for, and he isn't going to demand, anything. He will simply gesture to the situation at hand during a moment of extreme duress and catastrophe and assert that it is self evident why he was chosen and he formally accepts the responsibility and consequences and spiritual bindings required for full ascendancy. And if he is logically correct when making that assertion, the stormfather shall have no choice but to acknowledge the words.

Perhaps: "lend me your power...I am ready now..."

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

I'm pretty sure it's just the Immortal Words, it's just that Gavilar, a man who has lied and cheated and has no understanding of real honor, can say all the words he wants, but it's not enough to say them you have to mean them, which he doesn't.

[Chaos he/him]

Please make sure to take Stormlight 5 content in topic titles!

[Yolenlightweaver]

I think the Stormfather showed to be more aware than Gavilar assumed and I don’t think he would let him get it just by trial and error. 
 

I think when he said, “that was almost them,” he is speaking to the fact that most times, the oaths were said when the need was truly there. He was close as he had the need and desire, but missed the point. 

[+robardin he/him]

For the record: I am in Camp Stormfaker who believes that that comment "that was almost [the right Words to say]" to form a bond, a very un-First-Idealish sentiment demanding power based on personal need, clearly indicates that that is NOT the Stormfather - either an Unmade or some other new powerful entity (like an avatar of Autonomy) doing a full-on masquerade or hijacking of the Stormfather's Honorvisions.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I wonder who the heralds made the Oathpact with. It is an oath to lock away Odium, but it is still unclear to me who had to agree and accept the oath.

Did they make it with Honour and therefor it should be an honourable oath? Or was it made with Odium or Ba-Ado-Mishram or something, so the oath should be passionate? Odium seems to accept the pact and is free from it whenever a herald breaks. So maybe the oath is more of a passionate plea? 

It seems like the Stormfaker/father is hinting that the Oath is more of passion than of honour. 

Edited July 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[CtrlAltDepressed]

42 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I wonder who the heralds made the Oathpact with. It is an oath to lock away Odium, but it is still unclear to me who had to agree and accept the oath.

Did they make it with Honour and therefor it should be an honourable oath?

The Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds. Odium / Fused were not involved. They were effected, but did not consent to the Oathpact. Im not sure how Honor bound Odium with an oath Odium didnt swear, but that is what happened. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

31 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

The Oathpact was between Honor and the Heralds. Odium / Fused were not involved. They were effected, but did not consent to the Oathpact. Im not sure how Honor bound Odium with an oath Odium didnt swear, but that is what happened. 

I guess we have this WOB showing that it was just Odium and the Heralds: 
 

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Still very odd to me. Is the Oathpact an addendum to whatever deal Honour made to bind Odium in the Solar System? How can honour be like "I promise to myself that my soldiers will want to be on Braize and so that like totally locks the fused or whatever" 

Seems ... weak to me as a mechanic. Something else must be going on there. 

Edited July 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[CtrlAltDepressed]

10 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

The Oathpact prevents the fused from returning to Roshar, so it seems like there must have been some involvement from team Odium there? It seems odd that honour could only stop the fused from returning by having Honour promise to himself that his people would bind the Fused. It seems like the Fused, a unmade, or Odium would need to be at least a little involved in this working. 

Or maybe the Oathpact is an addendum to whatever deal Honour made to bind Odium in the Solar System? 

I'm not sure how that works but that is what we are told. (im at work, cant find the source) 

 

Personally, I think that this is just something that Honor specifically can do. We have seen that each shard seems to have their own quirk. Endowment made life on her own while Pres / Ruin needed to work together. Pres can hear the thoughts of all men, Odium seems especially good at Shattering other shards, etc. (some of that may just be circumstantial)

 

Honor is the shard of oaths AND of binding - so to me it makes sense that Honor would be able to Spiritually lash Odium to Braize. Im sure that is not the technical term, but I think this is (partly) why the Fused called Adhesion the surge of Honor. 

[alder24]

On 5/2/2024 at 2:19 AM, Mayalaran said:

So every order has the words that they have to say to advance in their ideals, and we know that Gavilar, when he was bonded to the stormfather, was very intent on finding these words and progressing to Godhood (or something like that). In the Proulouge to stormlight five that has been released, Gavilar routinley attempts to say the words. So what are the words? The closest he gets to them is this: 

 

“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. I need it.”

The Stormfather turned a shimmering head his direction. That was almost them.

“What, those?” Gavilar said. “Those were almost the words? A demand?”

So close. And so far.

 

So my guess, given this passage, is that the words are: "Give it to me. Now. THEY need it."

Does this hold up, or am I misinterpreting? I don't care if I'm wrong or right, but I want to know if I am for sure wrong or not,

In my opinion it's not about words specifically in this passage, it's about intent. This is the only time Gavilar meant the words he was speaking, every other time he was just guessing random quotes from the Way of Kings book. Here he had the right intent behind them, he really wanted power, he really needed it - intent was there, but this time the words were very wrong. That's why it's "almost" - for an Ideal to be accepted both intent and words must be matched. He needs to find the right intent and correct words would come to him.  And the Stormfather even said it later:

Quote

It’s not about what you are saying. That is not what is wrong.

Personally, I believe that there is no Stormfaker, it's just a Stormfather who's manipulating and lying to Gavilar.

 

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I wonder who the heralds made the Oathpact with. It is an oath to lock away Odium, but it is still unclear to me who had to agree and accept the oath.

Heralds and Honor were the only parties in the Oathpact:

Spoiler

luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

 

13 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

The Oathpact prevents the fused from returning to Roshar, so it seems like there must have been some involvement from team Odium there?

The Oathpact forms a cage from souls and cages are generally used to imprison someone against their will. There is no need to involve Fused or Odium in the Oathpact. OB ch 47:

Quote

“I see the Oathpact, I think,” Dalinar said. “The thing that bound them together and made them capable of holding the enemy in Damnation.”
A cage, forged of their spirits, the Stormfather said in his mind

 

22 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Or maybe the Oathpact is an addendum to whatever deal Honour made to bind Odium in the Solar System? 

The Oathpact is greater than Odium's imprisonment, but it's still a part of it:

Spoiler

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

[teknopathetic he/him]

And what role do the Honourblades play? When were they created?

Quote

Coppermind:
It's unknown at what point the Heralds received their Honorblades, although it likely happened during the creation of the Oathpact. 

Did Honor give the heralds the honorblades before the heralds signed the Oathpact? If the Honourblades existed before the Oathpact, why did the 10 regular people get them? Were there oaths involved to get these blades before eventually swearing the Oathpact?

If the honourblades were made specifically for the Oathpact, do the honorblades connect to the oathpact in some specific way? Or was Honour just like "Also, here are some cool swords before you go to hell forever. Not sure why swords would help you in hell. Best of luck." The heralds thought that the oathpact would end the Desolations, so why give a sword?
 

Quote

Coppermind:
The Heralds thought the Oathpact would end the endless war, but because they are human, there was a loophole. The Heralds had the ability to bend their oath and let the Fused return to Roshar, starting a Desolation. Knowing this loophole, the Fused captured and tortured the Heralds.^[6]

 

Edited July 26, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

And what role do the Honourblades play? When were they created?

We don't know, but per this WoB they aren't part of the Oathpact, they just represent it in a philosophical way. Honorblades were a gift. 

Spoiler

Questioner

When the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, why did they believe they needed to leave their Honorblades behind as they disbanded? Did they know what would happen to their blades after they left them?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a couple things going on here. If you've read Way of Kings Prime, there is built, originally into the Honorblades, the ability to find other Honorblades by using them. This has not been canonized into the cosmere as it exists yet, but it is still a power that's in the back of my mind, it is most likely something you can access with the Honorblades: let you find the others. This is calling back to the old Fred Saberhagen Swords books, which were part of the inspiration for these. So one reason they would leave them behind, the lesser reason, is: they're supposed to go split up, and they don't want to see each other. They want to leave them behind, because it's like: "The others might be able to find me. We're going our separate ways. We are done."

But the greater reason, the canon reason, that you can cite is that idea of: "I am walking away from being a Herald. This was the gift I was given, and a representation of that gift I was given, that represents me standing up for humankind. And I am no longer willing to do that, so I have to give this thing up." And they all knew it. They didn't have to be told it, because they knew what they were doing meant they didn't deserve those anymore. Not in a magical sense, but in a sort of philosophical and moral sense.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

why did the 10 regular people get them?

Regular? They were kings, scholars, or generals - they were the most important among humanity. Only Taln wasn't. OB ch 38:

Quote

THE ONE WHO WASN’T MEANT TO HAVE JOINED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE, THE ONE WHO WAS NOT A KING, SCHOLAR, OR GENERAL.

And they were the ones responsible for breaking something - starting Desolations I guess. RoW ch 47:

Quote

“I will take this charge,” Nale said softly. “With honor.”
“Do not consider it an honor,” Jezerezeh said. “A duty, yes, but not an honor.”
“I understand. Though I had not expected you would come to an enemy with this offer.”
“An enemy, yes,” Jezerezeh said. “But an enemy who was correct all along, making me the villain, not you. We will fix what we’ve broken. Ishar and I agreed. There is no person we would welcome more eagerly into this pact than you. You are the single most honorable man I have ever had the privilege of opposing.”
“I wish that were true,” Nale said. “But I will serve as best I can.”

 

I suspect Honorblades were given to them before Oathpact was created - Ishar was the one who forged it, he had to have the power to do that, he needed an Honorblade for this. There was already a Desolation going on, maybe it was given to them in response to Singers switching sides? Maybe it was given to them earlier, when they arrived on Roshar as a gift to help humanity settle in their new homes? Or maybe it was given to them when the Oathpact was made, only because they had to fight with Fused for some time, to help humanity restore their strength, to kill as many Fused as possible before going to Braize. This is because once Heralds departure to Braize, humans had to kill all remaining Fused and Regals on Roshar to send them back to Braize - and for that humans have to be strong enough. Heralds with Honorblades take pressure off humanity. So it still makes sense to give them Honorblades, even if Honor wasn't expecting Heralds to break. We don't know and it's hard to speculate.