F-zinc Uses and Questions

[Trusk'our he/him]

I know that this has been debated as a side of other threads before, but I'm interested; what would be realistic expectations of zinc Feruchemy? What would be situations where a Sparker Ferring could shine with their talents?

And some specific questions too:

1. Does Tapping mental speed let you multi task better? You can really only focus one one thing at a time normally, but if the processing power of your brain is boosted, does that mean you could Tap at 3x your normal amount and focus on 3 separate things? 

If so, listening in on multiple conversations simultaneously would be possible, which would be a nice pairing with A-tin.

2. Would mental speed help with visions? When accessing the SR with a duralumin/electrum burst, the end result is pretty overwhelming, so would added mental speed help process it?

3. Does mental speed make you Einstein? We know that mental speed can bring a little bit of bullet time into your grasp, but that's primarily F-steel's thing.

Spoiler

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Alteroden

With [Feruchemical] zinc, you get mental speed. How is that any different from [Feruchemical] steel, except without [physical] speed?

Brandon Sanderson

I think of the mental speed actually turning you into... Let's say you sped up your body, and you wanted to figure out some really complex equations.

Alteroden

So it lets you have intuitive leaps.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. It basically turns you into Ken Jennings. That's how I imagine it.

Kurkistan

So it's not like bullet time?

Brandon Sanderson

No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really--

Kurkistan

That’s steel’s thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s kind of steel's thing. They kind of overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

However, mental speed is a bit different from an actual intelligence boost/alteration. 

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016) 

Argent

Can tapping enough Feruchemical zinc allow one to match Taravangian's intellect on the day he created the Diagram? Or are the effects different somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

The effects are similar, but not exactly the same. Zinc is speed of thought specifically--while what happens to Taravangian increases multiple types of intelligence, not just raw 'processing power' so to speak.

So, does this mean you come to a conclusion faster, and therefore more easily?

If this is the case, would you be able to use F-zinc to solve complex mechanical designs and be considered a "genius"?

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I know that this has been debated as a side of other threads before, but I'm interested; what would be realistic expectations of zinc Feruchemy? What would be situations where a Sparker Ferring could shine with their talents?

And some specific questions too:

1. Does Tapping mental speed let you multi task better? You can really only focus one one thing at a time normally, but if the processing power of your brain is boosted, does that mean you could Tap at 3x your normal amount and focus on 3 separate things? 

If so, listening in on multiple conversations simultaneously would be possible, which would be a nice pairing with A-tin.

2. Would mental speed help with visions? When accessing the SR with a duralumin/electrum burst, the end result is pretty overwhelming, so would added mental speed help process it?

3. Does mental speed make you Einstein? We know that mental speed can bring a little bit of bullet time into your grasp, but that's primarily F-steel's thing.

  Reveal hidden contents

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Alteroden

With [Feruchemical] zinc, you get mental speed. How is that any different from [Feruchemical] steel, except without [physical] speed?

Brandon Sanderson

I think of the mental speed actually turning you into... Let's say you sped up your body, and you wanted to figure out some really complex equations.

Alteroden

So it lets you have intuitive leaps.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. It basically turns you into Ken Jennings. That's how I imagine it.

Kurkistan

So it's not like bullet time?

Brandon Sanderson

No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really--

Kurkistan

That’s steel’s thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s kind of steel's thing. They kind of overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

However, mental speed is a bit different from an actual intelligence boost/alteration. 

SA spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016) 

Argent

Can tapping enough Feruchemical zinc allow one to match Taravangian's intellect on the day he created the Diagram? Or are the effects different somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

The effects are similar, but not exactly the same. Zinc is speed of thought specifically--while what happens to Taravangian increases multiple types of intelligence, not just raw 'processing power' so to speak.

So, does this mean you come to a conclusion faster, and therefore more easily?

If this is the case, would you be able to use F-zinc to solve complex mechanical designs and be considered a "genius"?

I think a lack of bullet time is good for zinc. We can only imagine and speculate on what it might or what it must feel like to think that fast. How do you comprehend the idea that there is a power that allows you to comprehend nearly instantly. Infact intuitive leaps is more what I would describe it as. The world is happening near real time but you process and time out there most accurate move in an instant. 

As a kid deciding you want to jump across the creek you don't have to sit down and math out the physics of the jump. You simply know that you need to jump moderately hard or that you need to jump really hard. I think that zinc is closer to that than bullet time. 

I can't imagine thinking at a speed fast enough for me to double my thought in the same time... if I am consciously thinking about two or three times the stuff it would be really really difficult to not hate life as I think I would feel painfully slow.  

Thus I prefer to think of it as intuitive leaps. You process so much faster and the subconscious filters through the the algorithms faster and faster. 

Thinking about if I were running through a critical situation with a patient and we are considering all of the signs and symptoms. I don't think that zinc would force me to go through all of the exact same thought processes if it did then I would be frozen in time to get a critical decision made in a few seconds. In fact, in critical situations the flow of time and experiencing the urgency of the situation is part of what allows us to make choices. I like to think of zinc as less of me running through the algorithm consciously and more of my subconscious processing power being ramped up so much that intuitive leaps are able to be had. 

I like it to be more akin to just knowing. Ken Jennings is the example Brandon gives and I don't think Ken Jennings ever had to think about what he knows or not. Its just there and his mind pulls it to the forefront in what seems like an instant.  The same processing process is happening but his wiring lets it happen faster. 

Maybe I am the only person who thought of zinc like flipping through the file cabinet super fast... but I think now it is knowing where that file is kept without needing to flip through it. 

How does that make sense for storing and tapping?  I honestly don't know. But I think the magic of supercomprehension and superprocessing is incomprehensible and unprocessable.  I have never thought at double speed. But I have had experiences of just knowing. 

Although maybe that is coppers thing more than zincs. 

I also don't think zinc will allow a 6th grader to suddenly become a doctor. I think zinc allows a 6th grader to process what he has learned in an instant but I don't think it allows you to know things you never knew you never knew. 

How do I differentiate zinc and copper then? I think of copper more like a file cabinet. I think copper will always have those memories as you put them.  

Maybe if your memory is full it takes more.work for.the processor. Maybe not. 

Crazy little example of nothing... my wife has this friend who is 95 years old. She has never forgotten a number. She can tell you instantly the birthday of anyone she has ever heard. She can't tell you what color car you drive but remembers your car by the license plate... 

Is this more akin to zinc or to copper?  I think she would love copper as a power because she is always complaining that she just doesn't want to remember anymore. She expresses that she wants to forget as remembering it all makes her tired. 

 

Don't get me started on my thoughts of chromium. I think that is the same thing. You just know what is right. So you do it and it works out.... likewise, when storing you still know what is right and it never works out. 

 

All similar outcomes through seperate means. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 4/16/2024 at 7:34 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I like it to be more akin to just knowing. Ken Jennings is the example Brandon gives and I don't think Ken Jennings ever had to think about what he knows or not. Its just there and his mind pulls it to the forefront in what seems like an instant.  The same processing process is happening but his wiring lets it happen faster. 

Makes sense to me.

Using zinc might be like getting answers to "click" in your head with less conscious thought- you might not need to lay out a complex mathematical equation to determine when exactly a ball will hit a target when thrown, you can just work it out subconsciously, kind of like how Sazed was able to predict the trajectory of a thrown lantern during his confrontation with Marsh in WoA.

Adding an idea to this thread I've been pondering, how far does the real benefit of zinc go for your usual mental computations?

Like, let's say you sit a Sparker down with a difficult engineering problem and ask them to solve it, requiring them to come up with a new and creative solution. 

If they spent a week without tapping mental speed, would they make more or less progress than if they decided to instead spend 6 days storing and 1 day tapping?

Due to compression loss it seems obvious that the Sparker using their powers would actually be way less effective at their job, but we have an example in gold Feruchemy of the Investiture focusing the attribute way better than normal- Wayne spending about two weeks in bed to recover from multiple bullet wounds, a drink of poison, and an explosion, all while not suffering from scars.

And no amount of time spent healing through natural means would equal being able to regenerate your lost fingers either, which Bloodmakers can do with relative ease. 

I guess I'm just wondering, would zinc Feruchemy be similar? Maybe it would focus the attribute more, making certain tasks much, much easier, maybe even allowing cognitive breakthroughs in engineering, medicine, or Investiture better.

Just some more thoughts. 

[StanLemon]

We only really have two examples of F-Zinc to pull from. Sazed's use allowed him to calculate movement trajectories in an instant, allowing him to predict and account for Marsh. While Wax was able to think of several plans in the moment between one word and the other.

But we also have those WoB indicating that it allows for intuitive leaps. My guess is that while it doesn't really make you smarter, it gives you more an equivalent of RAM and CPU boost to your mind. @Trusk'our what I think is that like with a supercomputer as long as the information going in (the information the Sparker has) is correct, the end result will be the same just many times a faster result. A Sparker can store while they don't need the mental speed such as when they're relaxing, or eating, or whatever and then tap when they need that boost. So if they are tapping while working and storing during other time, there would be a net positive to productivity. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

We only really have two examples of F-Zinc to pull from. Sazed's use allowed him to calculate movement trajectories in an instant, allowing him to predict and account for Marsh. While Wax was able to think of several plans in the moment between one word and the other.

But we also have those WoB indicating that it allows for intuitive leaps. My guess is that while it doesn't really make you smarter, it gives you more an equivalent of RAM and CPU boost to your mind. @Trusk'our what I think is that like with a supercomputer as long as the information going in (the information the Sparker has) is correct, the end result will be the same just many times a faster result. A Sparker can store while they don't need the mental speed such as when they're relaxing, or eating, or whatever and then tap when they need that boost. So if they are tapping while working and storing during other time, there would be a net positive to productivity. 

Based on the Stormlight quote, that's probably right.

That limits some of its use, but it would still certainly be powerful in the right scenarios.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

On 4/16/2024 at 4:08 PM, Trusk'our said:

I know that this has been debated as a side of other threads before, but I'm interested; what would be realistic expectations of zinc Feruchemy? What would be situations where a Sparker Ferring could shine with their talents?

And some specific questions too:

1. Does Tapping mental speed let you multi task better? You can really only focus one one thing at a time normally, but if the processing power of your brain is boosted, does that mean you could Tap at 3x your normal amount and focus on 3 separate things? 

If so, listening in on multiple conversations simultaneously would be possible, which would be a nice pairing with A-tin.

2. Would mental speed help with visions? When accessing the SR with a duralumin/electrum burst, the end result is pretty overwhelming, so would added mental speed help process it?

3. Does mental speed make you Einstein? We know that mental speed can bring a little bit of bullet time into your grasp, but that's primarily F-steel's thing.

  Reveal hidden contents

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Alteroden

With [Feruchemical] zinc, you get mental speed. How is that any different from [Feruchemical] steel, except without [physical] speed?

Brandon Sanderson

I think of the mental speed actually turning you into... Let's say you sped up your body, and you wanted to figure out some really complex equations.

Alteroden

So it lets you have intuitive leaps.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. It basically turns you into Ken Jennings. That's how I imagine it.

Kurkistan

So it's not like bullet time?

Brandon Sanderson

No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really--

Kurkistan

That’s steel’s thing?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s kind of steel's thing. They kind of overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

However, mental speed is a bit different from an actual intelligence boost/alteration. 

SA spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016) 

Argent

Can tapping enough Feruchemical zinc allow one to match Taravangian's intellect on the day he created the Diagram? Or are the effects different somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

The effects are similar, but not exactly the same. Zinc is speed of thought specifically--while what happens to Taravangian increases multiple types of intelligence, not just raw 'processing power' so to speak.

4. So, does this mean you come to a conclusion faster, and therefore more easily?

5. If this is the case, would you be able to use F-zinc to solve complex mechanical designs and be considered a "genius"?

(Bullets added for #4 & #5)

To your musings in order:

1. Zinc shouldn't affect multitasking by my understanding; it's an acceleration effect, which can be functionally similar to a multi-threading effect, but they are two fundamentally different phenomena. In feruchemy, you get out what you put in, so if a person storing mental speed who is bad at multitasking stores, they should be faster, and still bad at multitasking, when tapping.

2. Unfortunately, I don't believe so, no. Time does not exist in the normal 4th dimensional way that human beings are used to in the SR. Accelerating one's intelligence should have no meaning during a full-blown SR breakthrough event. It would almost certainly assist with normal electrum usage and interpretation though, probably by a lot!

3. Zinc should not affect creativity. If a person who was cared for their entire life and never lifted a finger with no concept, knowledge, or experience with "fire" tapped Zinc at 1,000,000,000%, they would have no rational pathway of thought to arrive at the "novel" conclusion that rubbing sticks together fast enough could create fire no matter how fast they can think. So...a user could look like they were of genius level intellect, but they should not be able to simply dream up brand new ways of perceiving the world that they could never have conceived of eventually on their own.

4. Probably, yes, at least as I understand it. Those conclusions just might not necessarily be true for the exact same reasons noted. A crazy person tapping Zinc could probably very rapidly conclude that they themselves were perfectly sane and always were...heh...

5. I'm relatively confident that would work, yes. But they might have to be technically capable of solving it unaided in some amount of given time unaugmented if it's totally alien to their past knowledge, skills, or abilities.

Just my thoughts though, hope the opinion helps!

Edited October 28, 2024 by hwiles

[Light In the Darkness]

On 10/28/2024 at 10:34 AM, hwiles said:

But they might have to be technically capable of solving it unaided in some amount of given time unaugmented if it's totally alien to their past knowledge, skills, or abilities

I would guess that the idea about bloodmakers being able to regrow limbs is relevant here; many major problems in physics and math and all the rest have been solved by intuitive leaps stumbled on by accident. Most people, even those educated in the field, would not have been able to solve them without the same stroke of luck, which might never come to a person. I'd imagine F!zinc makes such connections much easier and encourages their happening, meaning you may be able to solve problems you couldn't before, even given unlimited time.

There is also the fact that some problems we have no frameworks for; we have to learn a lot about proteins in biochemistry and molecular biology, for example, by designing tests to see what binds to what. We need experimental knowledge in many such fields that can't be computed. F!zinc may allow such things to be computed via intuition; the subconscious brain can process a significantly higher amount of information in significantly more sophisticated ways than the conscious brain (link for support: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4061785/#:~:text=Visual search studies have shown,producing a meaningful conscious experience.). F!zinc, if it speeds this process, would allow people to potentially intuit solutions to high-complexity problems in very low amounts of time, including those for which they may have no background or formal training, though some related knowledge would be required. However, F!zinc would also enable consumption and understanding of this material at a much faster pace than usual, meaning the users would be very adaptable in problem-solving and excellent consultants. They would essentially be similar to AI models in this way, but likely more accurate due to the actual use of known facts and algorithms, just subconsciously. 

On 4/16/2024 at 2:08 PM, Trusk'our said:

3. Does mental speed make you Einstein?

Ironically, I think it would, to an extent. @hwiles I think is right when they said it shouldn't boost creativity, but Einstein's formal training was much less than many would expect, for the drastic breakthroughs he produced. F!zinc would enable intuiting the mind-games that he played to arrive at his ideas much easier, and in a way less related to the actual power, would probably speed up the ideation of the theory of relativity. In particular, they might realize that even though their mind is thinking faster, the light they perceive (which is something of a function of brain and body speed) doesn't change. By bringing even a little of this comprehension of bullet time, they might notice the apparent constancy of the speed of light, even on fast objects. Honestly, Scadrial is primed for relativity; time bubbles should have already given a few people a clue about the speed of light's importance, since everything but light seems to get bent or disrupted by passing through their boundaries. F!steel might also give a clue, since perception and speed have a similar potential for disjunction. F!zinc users would be in a prime position to notice these things, meaning it might actually be what makes someone "Einstein."

[DoctaDajman]

On 10/25/2024 at 3:42 PM, Trusk'our said:

Makes sense to me.

Using zinc might be like getting answers to "click" in your head with less conscious thought- you might not need to lay out a complex mathematical equation to determine when exactly a ball will hit a target when thrown, you can just work it out subconsciously, kind of like how Sazed was able to predict the trajectory of a thrown lantern during his confrontation with Marsh in WoA.

Adding an idea to this thread I've been pondering, how far does the real benefit of zinc go for your usual mental computations?

Like, let's say you sit a Sparker down with a difficult engineering problem and ask them to solve it, requiring them to come up with a new and creative solution. 

If they spent a week without tapping mental speed, would they make more or less progress than if they decided to instead spend 6 days storing and 1 day tapping?

Due to compression loss it seems obvious that the Sparker using their powers would actually be way less effective at their job, but we have an example in gold Feruchemy of the Investiture focusing the attribute way better than normal- Wayne spending about two weeks in bed to recover from multiple bullet wounds, a drink of poison, and an explosion, all while not suffering from scars.

And no amount of time spent healing through natural means would equal being able to regenerate your lost fingers either, which Bloodmakers can do with relative ease. 

I guess I'm just wondering, would zinc Feruchemy be similar? Maybe it would focus the attribute more, making certain tasks much, much easier, maybe even allowing cognitive breakthroughs in engineering, medicine, or Investiture better.

Just some more thoughts. 

This is a bit late but I totally think that storing would be similar to gold. A broad storage but applied to a single moment could lessen the tax on tapping.