Ashiok Posted October 12, 2014 Posted October 12, 2014 So yesterday I met brandon, and asked him if you could spike shades. He said you could do lots of stuff, but wouldn't elaborate more other than to say that Hemalurgy was what happened when you ripped out a piece of the spiritweb and tacked it on to something else. What do you guys think you could do if you spiked a shade? Also, can Hemalurgic spikes be made from metals on other planets?If so, the easiest way to kill shades hand to hand would be spiking, because it can be done with different metals. Thoughts? 3
Moogle Posted October 12, 2014 Posted October 12, 2014 Well, the idea is that the spikes 'absorb' Investiture, and I'd guess Cognitive Shadows are basically pure Investiture. So, you spike the shade, and it could be entirely drawn into the spike. Spiking someone with that could then give them the personality of the shade before they died, or their memories, or other attributes of shades - perhaps a weakness to silver, or the ability to disintegrate anything you touch? 1
Ashiok Posted October 12, 2014 Author Posted October 12, 2014 Spikes "Absorb" investiture? Explain, please. Here's what I was told by the man himself. "Spiking is ripping out a bit of the spirit web" I was thinking something along the lines of the disintegration and silver stuff. What if shades were a hive-mind? Would a spike give access to the mind?
Moogle Posted October 12, 2014 Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) Well, your spiritweb is Investiture (can provide WoB, if wanted). The idea is that the spike rips the soul, and the free-floating piece of the spirit is then absorbed into the spike, much like a gem absorbs Stormlight from a highstorm. (This is speculation, but seems pretty sound.) Similarly, a Cognitive Shadow is probably just made of Investiture (it's a "ghost" and basically the person's soul, which is made of Investiture), so you might be able to suck the whole thing into a spike, which has interesting applications. It reminds me of the hinting that Kelsier was going to come back through a spike. (Also, again to bring up an old theory: the fact that spren can be trapped in gemstones to me suggests they're maybe using Hemalurgy, since it's the same sort of mechanic. We have a WoB that says Hemalurgy has been used off-world. Roshar seems a prime candidate.) As to the hive-mind idea, I imagine you could join the hive-mind and "tune into" their sort of speak. It would probably be like spiking a listener and being able to tune into their Rhythms (though we don't know if this is possible, I'd be surprised if it weren't). Edited October 12, 2014 by Moogle 2
Fatebreaker he/him Posted October 13, 2014 Posted October 13, 2014 We of the Dark Alley firmly believe that anything and everything can be Spiked. 1
Edgedancer he/him Posted October 13, 2014 Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) I never read silence, so I have to ask, Do Shades have some kind of physical element that could substitute a bind point? Otherwise one would have to do some rule bending. Edited October 13, 2014 by Edgedancer
Oudeis he/him Posted October 13, 2014 Posted October 13, 2014 @ Moogle: You're sorta running into "all fingers are thumbs". Spikes rip off a piece of the spiritweb. We know, or at least suspect, that "spiritwebs" are made up of Investiture. However, just because a spike can absorb one sort of Investiture, it doesn't logically follow that this means it can absorb EVERY type of Investiture. In fact, the name people call them. Cognitive shadows. I don't believe it's suggested anywhere that hemalurgy affects the cognitive aspect; it seems pretty specific that it takes in the spiritual aspect. If Shades are, therefore, largely cognitive, there's little in the way of a direct link which would let us safely assume that all of a Shade can be absorbed by a spike. For a clarifying example: A spike can absorb the Investiture that makes up a spiritweb. That's like saying a square peg will fit in a square hole (and steal its allomancy). Saying that this means that hemalurgy absorbs every type of investiture is like saying that this means that a square peg will fit into any hole. It's possible that whatever sort of Investiture a Shade is comprised of is the equivalent of a "round hole", and that the square peg of hemalurgy simply doesn't fit. This is, of course, not meant to say that I think you're definitely wrong. I'm merely pointing out that there's no particular reason to assume that you're right.
Moogle Posted October 13, 2014 Posted October 13, 2014 @Outis I think you're being a little bit too skeptical on this one. Cognitive Shadows are "ghosts", and happen when the person refuses to go into the light (by WoB). They'd probably still have the same (or at least a similar) spiritweb as a regular human. If you can steal a regular human's spiritweb, you should therefore be able to steal a Cognitive Shadow's spiritweb. They're not entirely in the Cognitive, after all, no more than a human is entirely in the Physical. It's not confirmed by any means, but I think the evidence points more towards it being possible than not. If I had to give my confidence level on this one, I'd go for 75%.
Oudeis he/him Posted October 13, 2014 Posted October 13, 2014 Yet even then, no spike has ever stolen 100% of a living human's spiritweb. That we know of, it steals one trait, allomantic, Feruchemical, or fundamental. (Or other arcane). That i know of, there's no concrete support for the idea that more than a scrap is taken. In fact, there's WoB that Hemallurgy staples a "scrap" of spiritweb, and we know it's possible to survive theft, something presumably impossible if it left you with no spiritweb. In light of these facts, my confidence is much lower than yours.
echaozh he/him Posted October 18, 2014 Posted October 18, 2014 (Also, again to bring up an old theory: the fact that spren can be trapped in gemstones to me suggests they're maybe using Hemalurgy, since it's the same sort of mechanic. We have a WoB that says Hemalurgy has been used off-world. Roshar seems a prime candidate.) Actually, what if you stab a person with Nightblood in the right place? Can you spike with Nightblood? I think it is the prime candidate for spiking off Scadrial. As to the shades, I think Nightblood can devour them all. The planet is like a buffet house for the sentient sword.
Oudeis he/him Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 As to the shades, I think Nightblood can devour them all. The planet is like a buffet house for the sentient sword. Based on no evidence, I am now going to flat-out state that Nightblood's presence in the Forests of Hell would make every Shade near him frenzy instantly. 5
killersquirrel59 he/him Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Doesn't a spike need to touch the blood? Cognitive Shadows have no physical presence and thus no blood.
Moogle Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Doesn't a spike need to touch the blood? Cognitive Shadows have no physical presence and thus no blood. When being stuck in someone with a body, yes. The blood acts as an interface to the Spiritual. I don't know that it has to touch blood when you're an actual ghost and your spirit is in plain sight.
Oudeis he/him Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Do you have WoB that what we are seeing in the physical realm is a direct link from the spiritual, or are you simply guessing?
Moogle Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) Do you have WoB that what we are seeing in the physical realm is a direct link from the spiritual, or are you simply guessing? There's this one: Q: At the end of the trilogy Sazed communicates with Kelsier so there is something going on with an afterlife. Is it uniform across the cosmere? A: What is happening there is not actually technically an afterlife, well it kind of is, it is what we call a cognitive shadow its when your spirit is not moving on yet. So there is a Beyond but there is a-- basically it is what we would call in our world a ghost, and there are actually magic systems based around that. Actually the story I have coming out in George R.R. Martin’s next anthology is a ghost story involving this same--yes it is cosmere based. Yes, that would be consistent, they don’t all have the same mythology regarding it. But it would be consistent, what happened with Kelsier could have happened on any of the planets. I'm not sure what else a ghost would be. Your spiritweb is still around, because that's your soul. You don't have a body. Seems quite reasonable that what we see with Cognitive Shadows is more of the Spiritual and Cognitive than Physical. Edited October 23, 2014 by Moogle 2
Moogle Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 I'm new-ish, so what is a shade? They're from the short story Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell.
Weewah Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 I wonder if the shades in silence come from allover the cosmere rather than just the one world?
WeiryWriter he/him Posted November 6, 2014 Posted November 6, 2014 Is that a short story of his? Yes, it can be found in the Dangerous Women anthology edited by George R.R. Martin and Gardner Dezois.
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