Cultivation + Odium = Ashyn Magic

[Atlas333]

What I mean by the title is that I'm starting to think that the disease-based magic on Ashyn is a combination of Odium and Cultivation's magic systems.

While we don't know a lot about Ashyn to say anything definitively about the planet, here are the facts as I see them:

1. Odium was connected to the Ashynites and came with them to Roshar,

2. Cultivation has some kind of connection to the Ashynite magic system. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15171

3. Cultivation has been shown to work with Odium in recent events (i.e., the end of Rhythm of War).

 

So essentially, this would mean that the disease magic is a combination of Cultivation and Odium much like the Radiant Oaths are a combination of Cultivation and Honor. 

To me, this makes a lot of sense because I couldn't wrap my head around how one planet was connected to two shards unless they were in on it together (I suppose there is a chance that Cultivation's original magic was on Ashyn, and then Odium could have invaded potentially?? I'm not a fan of this as much because the destruction of the planet was of their own doing and not that of an invading force).

Additionally, it kind of fits with how the two shards would influence access to their magic. Diseases are something that can get worse (i.e., cultivate), but at the same time, they seem to be negatively influenced; what I mean is that I don't think cultivation's normal magic system would be so destructive which points to Odium's influence.

The application of this theory is twofold. 1. It helps us potentially understand more of the system's magic system and how the shards interact with each other. 2. Points to the conflict between the shards being more nuanced than Odium v Cultivation and Honor.

Thoughts?

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

2. Cultivation has some kind of connection to the Ashynite magic system. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15171

Some Connection? Brandon said most of Ashynite magic is Cultivation-based, that's more than some Connection. Cultivation is in the entire Rosharan system, not just on Roshar. 

7 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

3. Cultivation has been shown to work with Odium in recent events (i.e., the end of Rhythm of War).

That was against Odium. She devised a plan to kill and replace Rayse. I wouldn't call it cooperation, she killed Rayse. 

7 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

So essentially, this would mean that the disease magic is a combination of Cultivation and Odium much like the Radiant Oaths are a combination of Cultivation and Honor. 

Here is a problem with this - for Odium's magic to manifest and influence Cultivation's magic on Ashyn, he would have to seriously invest in the planet. Just being on the planet is not enough. But he avoided investing in Roshar for as long as he could because that would bind him to the system - he didn't want to be bound, he wanted to come and quickly Splinter Honor and Cultivation. Investing himself in the system to manifest his magic would not be beneficial to his mission. He wouldn't have done that. 

Moreover if he were to do that, there would be not one magic on Ashyn, but there would be more - most likely three: one being mostly of Cultivation, another mostly of Odium, the last one would be the mix of them both, as you proposed. And because Brandon stated that most of Ashynite magic is of Cultivation, and the disease magic is related to the Old Magic, I think we can assume Odium didn't do that.

Honor invested in the system long before Odium came and even if he was ignoring Ashyn, his investiture would be present there - and I think that's what the non-Cultivation magic part is on Ashyn, It's of Honor, it's the bond that happens between microbes and people that gives them power, it's the same mechanism that happens on Roshar with Spren, and that's Honor's manifestation. 

Spoiler

Argent

If a Shard wanted to affect another Shard’s magic system, would they need to Invest themselves in the world, or can they just kind of show up and do things?

Brandon Sanderson

“Affect their magic system”? What do you mean by that?

Argent

So for Roshar, let’s say additional Surges or modified Surges. For Scadrial different metals. For Nalthis--

Brandon Sanderson

That would require more than just showing up.

Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Did Odium originally have a planet he was Invested in?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium's plan always involved not getting stuck on one

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

Mistborn spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

Argent (paraphrased)

Feruchemy is the "balance" between Ruin and Preservation. Would any combination of Shards create a "balance" magic, so to speak, or are only certain Shards compatible?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Feruchemy ended up being a balance system, because of how polar Ruin and Preservation were. Any world with at least two Shards will result in a similar phenomenon. 

Argent (paraphrased)

Like Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Like Roshar. There is something like that going on there.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Paleo (paraphrased)

Are the Ashynite magic system, in which micro organisms cause diseases and bestow powers, and the Old Magic related? You could sort of see the powers and the disease as a boon and a curse. If so, does the "Old" part come from that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they are related, but the name comes from the magic actually predating spren bonds.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Vanahian

Brandon has said that the Ashynite disease-based magic was related with the Old Magic. Did he mean it in a direct way? Like this magic from Ashyn was a branch or a variety of the Old Magic system?

Brandon Sanderson

I do have to RAFO this, for the most part. Suffice it to say that the disease magic is related to a symbiotic bond between spren-like Investiture and microorganisms.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 24, 2020)

 

7 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

To me, this makes a lot of sense because I couldn't wrap my head around how one planet was connected to two shards unless they were in on it together (I suppose there is a chance that Cultivation's original magic was on Ashyn, and then Odium could have invaded potentially?? I'm not a fan of this as much because the destruction of the planet was of their own doing and not that of an invading force).

I don't see any problem with that. They are in the entire system, not just on one planet (they are mainly focused on Roshar however, but they can move around the entire system). Cultivation and Honor came to the system, invested and settled on Roshar. At one point Cultivation visited Ashyn, invested a bit there and went back to Roshar. But they are in the entire system, not just on one planet. Then Odium came, he was allowed to settle in the system, he didn't invest in it to avoid being bound to it, instead he started manipulating people like Ishar to experiment with Surges. It went really, really bad and they all escaped to Roshar. Odium came to Roshar with them. Odium's Connection to Ashyn doesn't have to be strong. He just was there. 

Truthfully, Shard "being somewhere" has no meaning in the Spiritual Realm, where they all are. The Spiritual Realm is spaceless, distance has no meaning there, there is not traveling in the Spiritual Realm, they just are.

Moreover Shard's investiture is everywhere in Cosmere, some of Odium's investiture was in Roshar before he came there - that's a result of the Shattering of Adonalsium. He could have used his investiture that was already on Ashyn to manipulate Ishar - but that's too little to influence Cultivation's magic, per WoB above. He would have to invest into the system to do that, but that would bind him to it.

Spoiler

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the Heralds/Fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

[...]

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)

Mistborn spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

[...]

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

[...]

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

 

8 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

Additionally, it kind of fits with how the two shards would influence access to their magic. Diseases are something that can get worse (i.e., cultivate), but at the same time, they seem to be negatively influenced; what I mean is that I don't think cultivation's normal magic system would be so destructive which points to Odium's influence.

This is actually very Cultivation like - for every boon there is a curse, to grow pruning is needed - that's how it's done in the Valley. Every magic system can be destructive, especially when a Dawnshard is involved. Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Pure Preservation's power was able to destroy the entire planet, even if the power was the exact opposite of Ruin.