Did Ruin do that on purpose?

[Voidlit Man he/him]

In the Way of Kings Epigraphs, Ati, the original holder of Ruin was noted to be a good person.

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Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him.

He is also noted to have fought against the intent, and has made it kinder somewhat

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Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

He seems like an all around great guy before he ascended, and slowly became corrupted by the Shard until he became the guy we see in the Mistborn books.  Did Ati, when Adonalsium was shattered, intentionally take one of the most dangerous shards to keep it out of the hands of Rayse or other more-evil conspirators, and settle with his polar opposite intentionally because he knew that it would limit the danger of the shard? 

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but it was just something I was thinking of. When Dragonsteel comes out, I would love to see the kind of person that Ati originally was.

[Leuthie]

Ati and Leras were friends. They worked together to create Scadrial and its life. I'm certain taking up opposing Shards and settling on their own planet was the plan. It would allow the friends to stay together, and give Ruin an outlet as 1 half of the creation of life, which would aid in managing a potentially problematic Shard.

However, Leras used a piece of himself to create the people of Scadrial. Ati was against creating people. This lead to a falling out between the friends. To keep Ruin from ultimately destroying his people, Preservation imprisoned Ruin. The destruction you see on Scadrial is the result of the Lord Ruler and his mistakes when he opened that prison and took up Preservation's power.

I've always wondered about that epigraph. I guess being focused on removing the people your friend created would look like something a kind and generous man would never do. Then again, Leras' creation was a betrayal of trust, and even kind and generous men can get cranky when their friend betrays them.

Edited March 3, 2024 by Leuthie

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Voidlit Man said:

He seems like an all around great guy before he ascended, and slowly became corrupted by the Shard until he became the guy we see in the Mistborn books.  Did Ati, when Adonalsium was shattered, intentionally take one of the most dangerous shards to keep it out of the hands of Rayse or other more-evil conspirators, and settle with his polar opposite intentionally because he knew that it would limit the danger of the shard? 

Rayse didn't want Ruin, he specifically asked for Odium. But I think it's likely that Ati was chosen (and he decided to pick up Ruin) because they knew he would be good at controlling Ruin. The Second Letter:

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He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

 

Spoiler

senjox

We've seen in both Secret History and RoW that a Shard's power has a will of its own and can "reject" a vessel if it's not adequate (like Preservation with Kelsier) and "tempt" if it is (like Odium with Taravangian). Does that mean that the first sixteen that Ascended needed to be fit for their respective shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. To an extent, yes. It was a little easier back then, but yes.

*Thinks for a while*

Yes. So, why am I hesitating on this? Not all of the sixteen could've taken any one of the sixteen. So not all the Vessels could take any of the sixteen. But the flexibility of which ones they could've taken, was much greater than you're perhaps anticipating right now. There were certain Shards that they had, they deliberately had a person pick up, that they thought would be a better controller of that Shard, if that makes sense. Rather than picking the person who is the best match. So, there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

 

7 hours ago, Leuthie said:

However, Leras used a piece of himself to create the people of Scadrial. Ati was against creating people.

No, they both agreed to create humans, that was their deal - they agreed to create sentient humans and Ruin was allowed to destroy them. By the time they had made that bargain they were already overwhelmed by their Shard's intnets - Ati was looking for satisfaction from destruction, Leras wanted to preserve everything.

HoA ch 53&54 epigraphs:

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The pact between Preservation and Ruin is a thing of gods, and difficult to explain in human terms. Indeed, initially, there was a stalemate between them. On one hand, each knew that only by working together could they create. On the other hand, both knew that they would never have complete satisfaction in what they created. Preservation would not be able to keep things perfect and unchanging, and Ruin would not be able to destroy completely.
Ruin, of course, eventually acquired the ability to end the world and gain the satisfaction he wanted. But, then, that wasn't originally part of the bargain.

[...]

Preservation's desire to create sentient life was what eventually broke the stalemate. In order to give mankind awareness and independent thought, Preservation knew that he would have to give up part of himself—his own soul—to dwell within mankind. This would leave him just a tiny bit weaker than his opposite, Ruin.
That tiny bit seemed inconsequential, compared with their total vast sums of power. However, over aeons, this tiny flaw would allow Ruin to overcome Preservation, thereby bringing an end to the world.
This, then, was their bargain. Preservation got mankind, the only creations that had more Preservation than Ruin in them, rather than a balance. Independent life that could think and feel. In exchange, Ruin was given a promise—and proof—that he could bring an end to all they had created together. It was the pact.
And Preservation eventually broke it

 

7 hours ago, Leuthie said:

the Lord Ruler and his mistakes when he opened that prison and took up Preservation's power.

Rashek had never opened Ruin's prison. He took up the power and used it and that wasn't opening it. Giving the power up without using it was opening the prison. The power had to be used. HoA ch 46 epigraphs:

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Ruin's prison, however, was fabricated of that power. Therefore, it was attuned to the power of Preservation—the very power of the Well. When that power was released and dispersed, rather than utilized, it acted as a key. The subsequent "unlocking" is what finally freed Ruin.

[Leuthie]

On 3/3/2024 at 6:31 AM, alder24 said:

 

No, they both agreed to create humans, that was their deal - they agreed to create sentient humans and Ruin was allowed to destroy them. By the time they had made that bargain they were already overwhelmed by their Shard's intnets - Ati was looking for satisfaction from destruction, Leras wanted to preserve everything.

HoA ch 53&54 epigraphs:

 

Rashek had never opened Ruin's prison. He took up the power and used it and that wasn't opening it. Giving the power up without using it was opening the prison. The power had to be used. HoA ch 46 epigraphs:

You're absolutely right. I should have looked everything up before posting because I've forgotten a lot. They both created humans. Leras' betrayal was in not allowing Ruin to complete the deal.

We still have the "good" Shard betraying the "bad" Shard, the destruction caused by someone picking up the power of Preservation and not being very good at using it. Very little of the problems on Scadrial were caused by Ruin. They were caused by Preservations trying to save humans on Scadrial from Ruin. 

I still contend that Ati did fine in his containment of Ruin and could still be considered a kind and generous man. I further contend that Ati and Leras were content with the end result, them getting their ultimate rest and both Shards being taken up by a man who was well suited to keep them in balance. And their human creations surviving and thriving.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

We still have the "good" Shard betraying the "bad" Shard, the destruction caused by someone picking up the power of Preservation and not being very good at using it. Very little of the problems on Scadrial were caused by Ruin. They were caused by Preservations trying to save humans on Scadrial from Ruin. 

Disagree. Leras used Preservation in a perfect way. He had to stop Ruin from destroying the world - that would kill everyone on the planet, he imprisoned him, seeded Terris prophecies that had layers of hidden messages to device Ruin, set up Mist to work without him and all other stuff he did. He saw he needed someone with both Ruin and Preservation to pick up Preservation and kill Ruin and another person like this to combine them together. And he achieved this. Leras was excellent at using Preservation.  Ruin killed like 99.9% of the Northern Scadrial population, that's quite a lot of damage.

11 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I still contend that Ati did fine in his containment of Ruin and could still be considered a kind and generous man.

Yes, he did fine, but he wasn't kind or generous anymore in Era 1. He had lost the struggle of wills. 

12 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I further contend that Ati and Leras were content with the end result

We don't know if Ati was content after his death. The effects of Shard's intent over its Vessel fade over time if they are separated, but in this case Ati left immediately, he gave no time for Ruin's influence to fade. He would not have been content.

Spoiler

Argent (paraphrased)

If Ati had somehow managed to give up Ruin and returned to being a regular person, would his mind have gradually reverted from its corruption by Ruin's intent, or would he always be determined to destroy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Over time Ruin's influence would fade, but Ati would remain a Sliver, so there would be some permanent effects.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

 

[Returned he/him]

I think that we just don't know enough about the Shattering to make firm guesses on this sort of topic. It's not clear to me if the sixteen knew how holding a Shard forever would affect them (though one would think that they must have had some idea). It's not clear why they chose the sixteen aspects they did when breaking apart Adonalsium's power, nor if they would have chosen the same sixteen with thousands of years' worth of observation of the fallout. We don't even know if "Ruin" is the concept they had for the Shard that Ati took up, though that seems likely too (it's what the other Shards call it). We also don't know how enthusiastic or reluctant the members of the cabal were-- per Hoid (I think? It must have been...), some of them were actively interested, others had no other choices left to them, and certainly other motivations existed, too. Maybe Ati didn't want to be involved at all, and especially not with that particular Shard.

Something must have compelled the group to choose (or allow) "bad" Shardic aspects like hatred and ruin, even if that thing was mechanical necessity, and something led each person to the Shard they took. I can't be certain without knowing what goals the sixteen had, but it seems hard (for me) to believe that what they've been getting over the last six thousand years is what they wanted.

[Voidlit Man he/him]

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I think that we just don't know enough about the Shattering to make firm guesses on this sort of topic. It's not clear to me if the sixteen knew how holding a Shard forever would affect them (though one would think that they must have had some idea). It's not clear why they chose the sixteen aspects they did when breaking apart Adonalsium's power, nor if they would have chosen the same sixteen with thousands of years' worth of observation of the fallout. We don't even know if "Ruin" is the concept they had for the Shard that Ati took up, though that seems likely too (it's what the other Shards call it). We also don't know how enthusiastic or reluctant the members of the cabal were-- per Hoid (I think? It must have been...), some of them were actively interested, others had no other choices left to them, and certainly other motivations existed, too. Maybe Ati didn't want to be involved at all, and especially not with that particular Shard.

Something must have compelled the group to choose (or allow) "bad" Shardic aspects like hatred and ruin, even if that thing was mechanical necessity, and something led each person to the Shard they took. I can't be certain without knowing what goals the sixteen had, but it seems hard (for me) to believe that what they've been getting over the last six thousand years is what they wanted.

 

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Questioner

Shards. We started with fairly obvious ones, magic wise. Trying to keep this spoiler free, so: Ruin, Preservation, this kind of thing. Then we get the weird ones. Why do we have Shards that can only exist in the mind of a sentient creature? ...Like the concept of Honor can only be done when it's carried out, essentially, by a sentient creature.

Brandon Sanderson

So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality. And so I view every one of them this way. And when I wrote Mistborn we had Ruin and Preservation. They are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y. Like, you've got these two contrasts, between things changing and things not changing. And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same. And those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium.

 

The way this is phrased makes me think that some of the "primal aspects of Adonalsium" were more unpleasant, and that having bad shards couldn't really be helped. I'm not sure if the conspirators knew that before they shattered Adonalsium, or after, but it seems like at some point the members of the group realized the different attributes before they took up the shards, which is part of the reason why I think that Ati could've realized that it would be good for people if he took up that shard

Honestly, we really don't know any of the shards very well, especially before the shattering, so all of this is conjecture, but I think it would be really interesting to have some of the "plain evil" characters be shown to be kind at one point. It's possible that another shard we never met, such as Ambition, was a worse person, and that taking Ruin prevented that conspirator from taking it

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Voidlit Man said:

The way this is phrased makes me think that some of the "primal aspects of Adonalsium" were more unpleasant, and that having bad shards couldn't really be helped. I'm not sure if the conspirators knew that before they shattered Adonalsium, or after, but it seems like at some point the members of the group realized the different attributes before they took up the shards, which is part of the reason why I think that Ati could've realized that it would be good for people if he took up that shard

This WoB seems to suggest that they more or less knew what would be the outcome and have people ready to take up Shards who they thought would be the best at controlling them. And the "not all the Vessels could take any of the sixteen" implies this as well, it would have been bad if they Shatter Adonalsium and then realized there is a Shard none can take up.

Spoiler

senjox

We've seen in both Secret History and RoW that a Shard's power has a will of its own and can "reject" a vessel if it's not adequate (like Preservation with Kelsier) and "tempt" if it is (like Odium with Taravangian). Does that mean that the first sixteen that Ascended needed to be fit for their respective shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. To an extent, yes. It was a little easier back then, but yes.

*Thinks for a while*

Yes. So, why am I hesitating on this? Not all of the sixteen could've taken any one of the sixteen. So not all the Vessels could take any of the sixteen. But the flexibility of which ones they could've taken, was much greater than you're perhaps anticipating right now. There were certain Shards that they had, they deliberately had a person pick up, that they thought would be a better controller of that Shard, if that makes sense. Rather than picking the person who is the best match. So, there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Edited March 6, 2024 by alder24