Jaebedo he/him Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 (edited) Hi, so huh never done this before, i searched a bit but didn't find it discussed so i hope i'm not overstepping on someone ele's ideas. You know that theory that Shallan's mother is the herald Charanarach ? ( and that killing her may have sent her back to Braize, making her the indirect cause of the True Desolation ) I've been thinking about it and there is something i've been wondering if we were taking everyting into account. We know Chanarachresembles Shallan and that shallan has something more than other Lightweaver. Maybe it's tied to the Mistspren she may have been playing with in her childhood ( Sanderson's has confirmed that an Unmade had meddled with the Davar's affairs, maybe Sja-Anat had sent an enlightened Mistspren to shallan ? ) Notably that she can see possibilities/ potential futures. She drew Gaz as "how he could have been" i think ? And one of the sailor she drew having escaped the shipwreck. Sanderson has stated that she had a stronger connection to the Cognitive Realm than most and that she could ... i don't know, maybe peek into it ? It has been theorized that Shallan being a Herald's daughter would have given her a bit more investiture of made her special ( i don't think we know of any other cognitive shadow having a kid ) I wonder if Charanarach could be Lin Davar instead of his wife. I've read somewhere on reddit that the murder of Shallan's father is peculiar because he resists a very potent poison and even starts to recover fairly quickly before being finished off by shallan using a necklace made of Aluminum. I'm not sure we know how aluminum interacts with investiture and stormlight and stuff ( Having abandoned his/her Honorblade, Charanach would not have access to stormlight i think ) but could it be a stretch that it's actually the aluminum that killed Lin Davar ? I'll admit my evidence for Charanarach gender might be a bit weak, since it refers to something not in the text of the books. Look at Chanarach's art. We were always told that the Heralds are 5 females and 5 males, and their depiction in illustrations. Chanarach's safehand is uncovered, and she is the only female herald depicted with an unprotected safehand. Could it be that she was depicted as a woman in Vorinism because of gender roles and the obsession with symmetry ? Like she was not considered as a "real" woman because of transphobia, or something. tl;dr : the idea is that Charanarch might be transgender/ genderfluid and is actually Shallan's father, Lin Davar. One of the things i see that contradicts this idea is that people seem convinced that the herald who died the same night as Gavilar is Chanarach because she was killed by shallan. Shallan's mother would have been killed in 1167-1168 according to the Coppermind, which is much closer to Gavilar's date of death ( 1167 ) than Lin Davar's death ( 1172 ) Have i missed something ? Is this a good post or did i do something wrong ? I'm sorry if that's the case, please correct me Have a good day Edited March 2 by Jaebedo added precision about dates 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmeredoug_30 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 On 3/2/2024 at 3:38 PM, Jaebedo said: Have i missed something ? Is this a good post or did i do something wrong ? I'm sorry if that's the case, please correct me Hi, welcome to the shard! Don't worry about it, they're only theories and everyone here is a crazy tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist anyway, there are no wrong ideas. On 3/2/2024 at 3:38 PM, Jaebedo said: I'm not sure we know how aluminum interacts with investiture and stormlight and stuff Feel free to correct me, I haven't seen many WoB so he may have said otherwise somewhere, but I think the abilities of metals and their relation to investiture is only present in Allomancers and Feruchemists. Aluminium only has power in terms of the metallic arts, on Scadrial, because that is the magic system that the Scadrian shards put in place. It wouldn't necessarily have an effect on investiture on other other worlds as far as I know. On 3/2/2024 at 3:38 PM, Jaebedo said: only female herald depicted with an unprotected safehand. Could it be that she was depicted as a woman in Vorinism because of gender roles and the obsession with symmetry ? I actually really like this idea that the heralds were unbalanced and their genders may have been changed to fit with Vorin symmetry, it's definitely something I could see happening in the books, if not in this specific way. The safehand thing I would say probably another Vorin addition. I can't remember if they're mentioned in Dalinar's visions or not but I don't think safehands were a practice during the desolations? The safehands on the other four female heralds was probably added by the Vorin church so that they fit modern standards of modesty and could be seen as pious and perfect figures in the Vorin mythology. The other four female heralds are associated with what could be considered 'feminine' orders: Edgedancers, Truthwatchers, Lightweavers and Elsecallers. All are more geared towards healing, scholarship, artistry and support rather than battle. However, the Dustbringers are widely known as fighters, the artillery of the Radiants, with great destructive power due to their surges. The Vorin church might not depict Chanarach with a covered safehand because the role of her order in the desolations was too 'masculine'. I doubt it would happen with Chanarach, as you mentioned, it would fit better if Chanarach were Shallan's mother, but I could see the gender of one of the other female heralds being mistaken. It would definitely cause further conflict within Vorinism, which could be interesting, they've been clinging on for a while now, perhaps it would be the final blow in the downfall of the Vorin church? Not to mention, we know that the Reshi king is trans, his radiant healing, 'healing' his body to match his spiritual perception of himself. It might be possible that something similar occured with a herald, or maybe the Vorin church just changed it for themselves, we don't know. It would be funny if the herald's depictions were just artistic choices and the hand had no relevance lmao Personally, I don't see Lin being Chanarach, otherwise it would be suspicious that his wife was the one connected to the Skybreakers and trying to kill Shallan instead of him. Unless his wife got the connections through him, but then Lin probably would have helped his wife kill Shallan due to his heraldic madness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 On 3/2/2024 at 4:38 PM, Jaebedo said: tl;dr : the idea is that Charanarch might be transgender/ genderfluid and is actually Shallan's father, Lin Davar. I don't think so. This is a little wild theory, there isn't much to support it, just as there isn't much to prove it's wrong. One possible explanation for the lack of cover on Chana's safehand is that she is meant to represent underage people or is depicted as an underage girl for some reason - young girls don't have to wear them. But it's weird because she isn't the youngest of all Heralds, Ash is. Those images are meant to depict Heralds as they are somewhat currently viewed by the Vorin church - so even if she was a transgender, they would still depict her with a covered hand, especially if they misgendered Chana for symmetry's sake. If they view Chana as a woman, they should still cover her safehand. Therefore I think the fact that Chana is depicted without her safehand covered isn't related to her being trans. Spoiler Blightsong Who drew [the Oathbringer endpapers]? Are they in-world art? Brandon Sanderson These are in world paintings done by the Oilsworn, one of the people Shallan studied when practicing her art. The actual paintings were done by the Oilsworn's real-world counterpart, Dan Dos Santos, who did the cover of Warbreaker. There are two more pieces in the back, done by someone else, which are also in-world art pieces. They're all part of a larger theme, and are equally gorgeous. Phantine I assume these are paintings of heralds, then? Brandon Sanderson These two [in the front of the book] are Ishar and Ash. The back two are Jezrien and Vedel. ConvolutedBoy Ash is so much more...shiny than I expected, but I guess that's Lightweaving for you. I love the space background too. Brandon Sanderson Remember, these are in-world artifacts. So this is how someone painted her from their imagination, based on lore. These are Rosharan versions of the paintings of the prophets along the top of the Sistine Chapel. General Reddit 2017 (Oct. 20, 2017) 1 hour ago, cosmeredoug_30 said: Feel free to correct me, I haven't seen many WoB so he may have said otherwise somewhere, but I think the abilities of metals and their relation to investiture is only present in Allomancers and Feruchemists. Aluminium only has power in terms of the metallic arts, on Scadrial, because that is the magic system that the Scadrian shards put in place. It wouldn't necessarily have an effect on investiture on other other worlds as far as I know. No, aluminum has a Cosmere-wide property of blocking investiture. You've seen Azure using the room with aluminum layered walls to hide Soulcasting from Odium spren. You've seen Rushu in Dawnshard and RoW using this discovery to create fabrials with aluminum, stopping them from working in that direction. You've seen Fused using aluminum spears to block Shardblades, you've seen Nightblood's sheath blocking Nightblood. Aluminum in general in Cosmere blocks investiture and that's outside of Metallic Arts. Spoiler [...] Brandon Sanderson Aluminum has some weird properties on all of the magic systems, not just Allomancy. It does not have the same effect, but aluminum has some bizarre effects. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Spoiler Bridge4AM (paraphrased) What would happen if you tried to cut aluminum with a shardblade? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) A shardblade would not cut aluminum. Footnote: This contradicts a previous WoB where Brandon said shardblades could cut aluminum. This contradiction is addressed here. An Evening with Brandon Sanderson (Feb. 1, 2017) Spoiler FirstRyder Could Aluminum be used to protect a Surgebinder from a larkin? Brandon Sanderson Yes. havoc_mayhem Would a larkin be able to steal Stormlight from a surgebinder wearing Shardplate? Any comments on whether Shardplate or aluminium would be more effective protection? Brandon Sanderson Getting through both would be relatively equal--with the problem being that Shardplate is powered by investiture, which the larkin could feed on. So aluminum is better in that specific case. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016) Spoiler Questioner So, we know that things can be Soulcast into aluminum. But can aluminum itself be Soulcast into something else? Brandon Sanderson It resists all forms of Investiture trying to change it to things. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) Spoiler Questioner If you had aluminum or silver, could someone using Gravitation or Adhesion, could they throw that? Or would they be unable to infuse it with Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Yes, they would be unable to. Footnote: Silver does not seem to have the same Investiture-blocking properties as aluminum. Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017) 1 hour ago, cosmeredoug_30 said: The safehand thing I would say probably another Vorin addition. I can't remember if they're mentioned in Dalinar's visions or not but I don't think safehands were a practice during the desolations? Yes, that's true. But the images are as Vorinism currently views Heralds, so an explose safehand is out of norm. 1 hour ago, cosmeredoug_30 said: The other four female heralds are associated with what could be considered 'feminine' orders: Edgedancers, Truthwatchers, Lightweavers and Elsecallers. All are more geared towards healing, scholarship, artistry and support rather than battle. However, the Dustbringers are widely known as fighters, the artillery of the Radiants, with great destructive power due to their surges. The Vorin church might not depict Chanarach with a covered safehand because the role of her order in the desolations was too 'masculine'. That's an interesting and possible explanation. However even by Vorin teaching, all heralds were fighters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmeredoug_30 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 24 minutes ago, alder24 said: she is meant to represent underage people or is depicted as an underage girl for some reason Is this mentioned in the books or was it a WoB? I feel like it would be really weird to depict her or any of the heralds as underage, considering the Vorin church wants to portray them as mythical leaders and generals during the desolations. Portraying one of the heralds as a child would be a weird move on Vorinism's part. I know Ash is quite young but I always thought of her as being 19 or maybe her early 20s, is she younger? 33 minutes ago, alder24 said: No, aluminum has a Cosmere-wide property of blocking investiture. Somehow I didn't clock this. And apparently I've forgotten the whole plot of RoW lmao. To be honest I always thought the metal Hoid gave to Azure and Nightblood's sheath were just some sort of weird god metal but this makes so much more sense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 32 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said: Is this mentioned in the books or was it a WoB? No, it's a "theory." It's one possible, speculative explanation. It's not confirmed or said in books or WoBs, it only uses the tradition of young girls not covering their safehands to reach this speculation. 34 minutes ago, cosmeredoug_30 said: I feel like it would be really weird to depict her or any of the heralds as underage, considering the Vorin church wants to portray them as mythical leaders and generals during the desolations. Portraying one of the heralds as a child would be a weird move on Vorinism's part. I know Ash is quite young but I always thought of her as being 19 or maybe her early 20s, is she younger? Depicted as or represent underage. She clearly looks adult so she might represent them rather than being depicted as underage. Ash is potentially the only Herald that was born on Roshar, rest was born on Ashyn. They look the same as when they stopped aging. Spoiler Willshaper Wallar ...Were the Heralds alive for the human exodus from Ashyn? Brandon Sanderson Yes. They were not Heralds then, but they all made that trip. I believe. My timeline-- You can't nail me down on that one, because it's possible that Ash was born after, but I don't think so. Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018) Spoiler Questioner I have a bit of a problem with the first Desolation timeline. I'm wondering how old were the Heralds when they became Heralds. Brandon Sanderson The age that you would see them as when you met them. They basically are the age they look. When they became Heralds, they are the age that they appeared. Questioner So they were like in their younger middle age? Brandon Sanderson Some of them. I mean Ishar is older. Questioner So that means that the entire timeline of the first Desolation happened within a single lifetime? Brandon Sanderson A lot of the ancient chronologies are wrong and you won't get the actual answers until the Heralds themselves explain it in their flashback sequences in the back five. Questioner You've said that the Heralds came over from Ashyn. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Okay. How old were they then? Brandon Sanderson Younger than they were when they became Heralds. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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