Thoughts on the future society of Scadrial

[Thought]

Yup. It's specifically noted that Ruin would guide Marsh's hand when the time came to actually spike Penrod. Thus the take away: in none of the spiking cases that we see in the Mistborn series does a knowledgeable human stab someone, except in the creation of known constructs (Inquisitors, Koloss, and Kandra). It is either Ruin (who doesn't count when we're talking if Hemalurgy was known or not) or happenstance (which, admittedly, was probably crafted by Ruin, but not under his direct control).

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

Even a spike that had been left for weeks without entering someone gave Ruin pretty solid control over Penrod. We also have strong reason to suspect that a melted down spike still works (Wax's earring is made of a melted down inquisitor spike, and Harmony talks to him). I think that Ruin could have made just a few Hemalurgic piercings, and manipulated events so Alendi ended up with them.

[Guest Galavantes]

Wait, how do we know that Wax's earring was a melted down Inquisitor spike?

Also when did we decide that it was TenSoon that gave it to him? The only reference to this that I'm aware of is Wax speculation that the lady who gave it to him was actually a "faceless immortal"

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Wait, how do we know that Wax's earring was a melted down Inquisitor spike?

Also when did we decide that it was TenSoon that gave it to him? The only reference to this that I'm aware of is Wax speculation that the lady who gave it to him was actually a "faceless immortal"

Brandon told me it's part of a melted down Inquisitor spike at a signing. And I believe he said that it was TenSoon's "daughter" MeLann that gave it to him.

Edited April 5, 2012 by CrazyRioter

[Windrunner he/him]

Spook would like to have words with you.

Do you really believe that Ruin wasn't responsible for Spook's spiking? I thought there was a quote on this but I couldn't find it anywhere so it may be non-existent. Ruin is causing volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, I don't think it would be beyond his power to nudge the blade into the right angle that it would hit Spook at the right point. Inquisitors experimented for centuries to find new bind points and constructs but they failed miserably. If it was as easy as randomly stabbing a sword into someone I think they would have found a few. Anyway that point is irrelevant, as is the one about Marsh spiking Penrod. The way I see it Ruin spiked Penrod, he used Marsh as a tool. It's like blaming a gun for killing someone instead of the person who fired it. Marsh didn't need to know how to do anything with Hemalurgy he just had to be there for Ruin to use.

Also Ruin had such plans for the city, he needed an agent to destroy it, and Quellion wasn't doing it right, he was wearing it down, not burning it to the ground it as was Ruin's desire. I think that it would be too perfect for someone to acquire a spike when just when Ruin needed a new pawn. Also the fact that the manor Quellion tried to kill Spook in not only had Allomantic metal, but the correct one for this "coincidental" spike is too unlikely in my opinion. There's also the fact that the man who stabbed Spook might have been crazy. His family was being held prisoner and would be killed if he messed up. I know that would be enough to unhinge me a little bit. This guy is so nuts that he stabs his buddy to try to get to Spook. In my opinion that seems pretty insane. You can believe that it's coincidence if you so choose, but for me there are way to many coincidences for this to have all worked out. I think Ruin was behind it.

I must disagree: they obviously had no idea what they were doing, or what the process they needed to follow was. The Terris religion is far too devoted to Preservation and too opposed to Ruin to intentionally communicate with Ruin, or to intentionally kill and rip pieces of Preservation out of some people to implant in others.

I meant knew what they were doing in a different way. As in, I take this type of metal, poke someone with it here, and then stick it here in someone else. I don't believe for a second anyone actually knew what was going on. Knowing what to do is different from knowing why it works. I'm going to go back to the gun again. If you handed it to someone and explained how to fire and reload, they wouldn't need to know why it worked in order to use it.

Marsh didn't know where to stab Penrod, yet he succeeded. Presumably the same was true of Vin's mother. As for the guy who stabbed Spook, there's no indication that he either had a Spike himself or was crazy, so there is no indication that Ruin was behind it. But the take-away is, people rarely were informed of the process in the instances we see.

None of the people here needed to be informed of the process, both Vin's mother and Marsh were controlled by Ruin, and I've already voiced my opinion on Spook above. The quote I'm referring to is the same one I've already posted on the page before. In my opinion, Brandon makes it clear that these spikes are known to allow you to communicate with a deity. It seems clear to me that they had to have had some renown. I can however see how you can read it differently.

[Thought]

None of the people here needed to be informed of the process...

Exactly.

No one was informed of the process. Hemalurgy was used but it was, shall we say, "unknown."

Your entire stance is based on the assumption that because Alendi's piercings were hemalurgic spikes, the art of hemalurgy was "known" prior to Rashek's ascension. Yet, as you've demonstrated, use in no way necessitates knowledge.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Thought

[Odium's_Shard]

I do believe that the exact reason that Hemalurgy allows Ruin to talk to the victim is because it 'warps' their soul and spiritual defense. Presumably, this happens in insane people too. So all the spike has to do is drive them insane or warp their soul. Surely, a spike that just taps any bind point, and any receiving point (such as heart, as seen with Spook, or eye, etc.) without it being in the right order to grant power, would still allow Ruin to talk to them? They could simply 'happenstance' a Hemalurgic construct this way, ie, somebody stabbed in heart/eye (regular ooccurence), and the dagger is then stabbed into someones shoulder.

The blade doesn't need to snap. Some of the metal might just rub off. Or the cut is imbued with metal trace, etc. You have created a Ruin Oracle.

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

My point is that Alendi's piercings were likely renowned religious artifacts handed down for generations. It is entirely possible they were created slowly over hundreds of years by Ruin managing to manipulate insane people/chance into creating spikes.

While I do believe that some Hemalurgy took place, and that there may have even been a few people who knew "stick spike here, then here", I think that the overwhelming majority of people did not have an sort of knowledge about spiking folks. I'm fairly certain that the only significance most people attached to spikes of any kind (usually piercings) was based on cultural and religious traditions that may have had ancient roots in Hemalurgic practices carried out by people under the direct influence of Ruin.

Food for thought: What if there is some cultural tradition in many ancient Scadrian societies of making piercings out of the weapons you kill your enemies with? If this continues over hundreds of years, people will most likely end up making a few Hemalurgic spikes. These people will eventually correlate their "religious experiences" with their piercings, and bam: religious significance is attached to piercings, all without people really having a knowledge of Hemalurgy.

[Odium's_Shard]

So this still goes back to the 'Vin using "luck"' -> 'Vin purposefully/accidentally using Allomancy' argument. Was she actually just doing it instinctively? Or was Ruin there, behind her, telling her to do it through the spike. If he was subtle enough, it could sound just like her own conscience, just like these people with earring pre-Ascension might have presumed.

Maybe Ruin was behind all her actions? Maybe he wasn't truly defeated, but, in spite of Zas's 'future sight theorem' created a complex and over-arching plan on a scale far higher than even Preservation's, and in his death, set up the potential for the end of all mankind, like maybe teaching the southern peoples how Hemalurgy worked in completion, and then 'tucking away' a piece of his self and his power that held sway over these particular constructs and their controls in a Well, and himself chose a Champion, who would go to the Well and rise up with an army of Southern Inquisitors/constructs?

It would be... unexpected. So Harmony may not have inherited all of Ruin's power, but at the last second he created a Well. We know Ruin could have, because in the first drafts of Mistborn WoA, Vin actually travels to Ruin's Shardpool.

[Windrunner he/him]

Exactly.

No one was informed of the process. Hemalurgy was used but it was, shall we say, "unknown."

Your entire stance is based on the assumption that because Alendi's piercings were hemalurgic spikes, the art of hemalurgy was "known" prior to Rashek's ascension. Yet, as you've demonstrated, use in no way necessitates knowledge.

Well neither does it disprove that they knew, I find it the more likely possibility. Most if not all (I can't remember why Zane spiked himself) of Ruin's spikings occurred after he escaped. I don't understand why the people of the Final Empire not knowing about Hemalurgy matters in relation to the people of Classical Scadrial, because Ruin couldn't control any of them so they had to have knowledge to make spikes. At least that's the way I see it.

Hmm, do you have a Google+ (or whatever it's called) account. One of us could post a question for Brandon there about this to see if he'd answer about it during the hangout. If you don't just let me know and I'll do it. I was already intending to ask some questions anyway.

[Voidus]

Hmm, do you have a Google+ (or whatever it's called) account. One of us could post a question for Brandon there about this to see if he'd answer about it during the hangout. If you don't just let me know and I'll do it. I was already intending to ask some questions anyway.

I just finished transcribing that, I really wish we'd had some more Mistborn questions, if only because we get a new Stormlight book much sooner than a new Mistborn novel