jons Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Hopefully no one else has posited this theory yet... But my guess is that Amaram's honorable demeanor is a ploy on his part to attract an honorspren. He's a member of the Sons of Honor, so he knows all about the Knights Radiants and all of their orders. Thoughts...? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 (edited) Welcome to the forums! I don't think spren bonding works like that. If nothing else, what Amaram did to Kaladin should have removed any chance of it happening. Maybe the Sons of Honor have corrupted knowledge or something, though, and were trying it anyways? It's an interesting idea, but I think the Sons of Honor would have done it with the less honorable spren like the Cryptics if they were trying to get Surgebinders. I think Amaram actually genuinely wishes he could be honorable. It's just that when there's hard choices to be made, he's willing to do anything to win. In a world where there were no Desolations and little conflict, he would probably be exactly as honorable as Dalinar and his reputation would be the truth. It's hard to say, though. I'm biased against Amaram, since I thought he'd be an interesting morally grey villain... turns out nope, he's literally trying to bring an apocalypse to Roshar because he's a religious fanatic. I felt really betrayed by WoR when we got some PoVs from Amaram, given that I had previously tried to (sort of) defend him and say "hey, maybe he has really good reasons for what he's doing". He's been relegated to the pile of boring villains I just want to never be mentioned again, the only other member of the pile being Sadeas. (Fortunately, Sadeas got knocked off without much ceremony. I wish it had happened earlier.) Edited September 25, 2014 by Moogle 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purelake Earthquake he/him Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 I feel like it's too early to think we can understand all about the exact motives of Sons of Honor. It seems a bit preemptive to throw them in that pile. If anything we can expect from Sanderson it's that we don't know squat about what's actually going on and anything can happen. That said, I only read it once, back when it came out, so maybe it was a lot clearer than I remembered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colby Jack he/him Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 It's hard to say, though. I'm biased against Amaram, since I thought he'd be an interesting morally grey villain... turns out nope, he's literally trying to bring an apocalypse to Roshar because he's a religious fanatic. I felt really betrayed by WoR when we got some PoVs from Amaram, given that I had previously tried to (sort of) defend him and say "hey, maybe he has really good reasons for what he's doing". He's been relegated to the pile of boring villains I just want to never be mentioned again, the only other member of the pile being Sadeas. (Fortunately, Sadeas got knocked off without much ceremony. I wish it had happened earlier.) I've been saying it from the very beginning. He should be exposed for his crimes, humiliated, and executed for the filthy traitor he is, then his body thrown out into the streets to feed starving dogs. Might even have to shoot the dogs too, just in case. Didn't get that in WoR, so I'm really looking forward to next year.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted September 25, 2014 Report Share Posted September 25, 2014 Hopefully no one else has posited this theory yet... But my guess is that Amaram's honorable demeanor is a ploy on his part to attract an honorspren. He's a member of the Sons of Honor, so he knows all about the Knights Radiants and all of their orders. Thoughts...? I think it is highly improbable Amaram will ever attract a Honorspren. Honorsprens conception of honor appears to be built around the notion of protection, ie to be honorable, you must be willing to defend/protect those who cannot and in order to make them move forward, you must be willing to take on a role of leadership. We saw all this with Kal. Kal's desire to protect people is deeply rooted within him as even as a child he kept asking how he could kill to protect. It turns out he can, if the threat is a direct one. However, he cannot commit murder to remove potential future threats. Also, as Kal was depressed and willing to end his days, it is his desire to save his fellow bridgemen that brought him out of his morosity. To do so, he had to accept the role of a leader. Windrunners two attributes are protection and leadership. Looking onto Kal's story, we can appreciate how they come into play to form a Radiant. Amaram does not exhibit any of those qualities. He believes he is acting honorably because he has a desire to gain powerful weapons to fight his foes. He is, however, the exact opposite of a Windrunner. He saw killing Kal's men as a solution to solve his dilemma over who shouldthinks hold the shards Kal won. Even if his intention were to become a mighty warrior to protect other people, it does not warranty murder. You cannot kill to protect unless it is out of self-defense or if the threat is a direct one. Removing a hypothetical one is not right (for a Windrunner that is) nor is murdering to gain an advantage. In fact, I believe Amaram is the last person any Honorspren would ever approach for Radianhood. Other orders, I believe would feel the same. There is just this quality about proto-Radiants that is missing in Amaram, this strength of character that compels each and every one of them to do undertake the impossible, to cross the highest mountain in order to reach their goals. Perhaps you are right and Amaram thinks he is acting honorably enough to attract a spren. This is entirely possible, but it sure won't work. I have however, theorized Amaram will end up with one of the honorblades.... That should lead to interesting developments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 I wonder how much the sons of honor really know about the radiants. They appear to be a secret sect with a lot of secret knowledge, but it's still millennia-old second hand knowledge. they may have forgotten a number of important details, have accumulated subtle-but-deeply-misleading inaccuracies. Compare to the group sigzil was part of. they also knew a lot about radiants, but what they were trying to do would never work. putting a radiant into a deathtrap would never work to reveal his powers unless the radiant is already quite advanced. if it''s the wrong kind of radiant, the trap would kill him anyway: i think for example of the falling boulder. lift would have no way out of it. kaladin may lash himself away, but if he has that kind of freedom of movement he can roll away without problems, so he must be tied in place; in which case he can't really escape the bounds and can only stop the boulder for a short time before his stormlight runs out. So, I expect the sons of honor to have many things wrong. maybe they really are trying to attract spren, but are going about it the wrong way because of their limited knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 I've been saying it from the very beginning. He should be exposed for his crimes, humiliated, and executed for the filthy traitor he is, then his body thrown out into the streets to feed starving dogs. Might even have to shoot the dogs too, just in case. Didn't get that in WoR, so I'm really looking forward to next year.. I know it's a bit off topic, but that 'shoot the dogs too' put a smile on my face. Too much time spent @ work reading TV tropes lately... http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShootTheShaggyDog http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok he/him Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 I wonder how much the sons of honor really know about the radiants. They appear to be a secret sect with a lot of secret knowledge, but it's still millennia-old second hand knowledge. they may have forgotten a number of important details, have accumulated subtle-but-deeply-misleading inaccuracies. Compare to the group sigzil was part of. they also knew a lot about radiants, but what they were trying to do would never work. putting a radiant into a deathtrap would never work to reveal his powers unless the radiant is already quite advanced. if it''s the wrong kind of radiant, the trap would kill him anyway: i think for example of the falling boulder. lift would have no way out of it. kaladin may lash himself away, but if he has that kind of freedom of movement he can roll away without problems, so he must be tied in place; in which case he can't really escape the bounds and can only stop the boulder for a short time before his stormlight runs out. So, I expect the sons of honor to have many things wrong. maybe they really are trying to attract spren, but are going about it the wrong way because of their limited knowledge. First, I definitely don't disagree with anything you are saying. At all. At least in how it applies on Roshar. However, I think that Sigzil's group's method of trying to force Radianthood at least somewhat resembles what was done on Scadrial to make people Snap. Sure, being beaten within an inch of your life isn't quite the same thing as jumping to your death off of a cliff, but there are certain parallels. We also know that Worldhoppers have visited Roshar. Combine the two, and it's not completely out of the question that a few stories from one of these Worldhoppers got heard by Sigzil's group and horribly misheard or misremembered a few centuries ago, and further mangled through time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zea mays she/her Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 Cough*TeftwastheInvisagernotZigzil*cough. Otherwise, brilliant theorizing. Carry on. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 (edited) Welcome! The purity of only posting to start a thread is brilliant. Upvote! Hopefully no one else has posited this theory yet... But my guess is that Amaram's honorable demeanor is a ploy on his part to attract an honorspren. He's a member of the Sons of Honor, so he knows all about the Knights Radiants and all of their orders. Thoughts...? I haven't seen any signs that Amaram understands about the spren. IIRC, their theory seemed to be that bringing back the voidbringers would bring back the Radiants and the Heralds. Which is sort of true ... The spren came back because they sense the imminent Desolation. I agree that Amaram wants to be good, and is good whenever he thinks he can afford it. He does not have faith, though. Deep down, he believes that sacrifices may need to be made. He, like Mr. T., is willing to make the sacrifice of sacrificing others. So pure, but why doesn't he belch rainbows? He is working w/Restares, whom Gavilar expected to kill him. He seems to be a younger, more Alethi version of Mr. T. It is interesting that we have the Amaram of the Sons of Honor and Mr. T claiming to be inspired by Gavilar, but fundamentally believing the ends justify the means. So many questions! Gavilar was giving Amaram an important mission when Jasnah interrrupted them. Did he know that Amaram was working w/Restares? Is Restares the "not of the local species" in Tukar that the Ghostbloods were referring to? What do the Sons of Honor understand about the spren? Navani has suggested that Gavilar was not the man people thought he was. Was he also an "ends" person? There are hints that he may have started to attract a spren, possibly even the BondStormfather. He asked Dalinar not to carouse on the night he died. Jasnah asks when he became so discerning. He has the weird, possibly voidish sphere that he gives to Szeth. Who is he trying to keep it from? Where is Gavilar's heart really? Edited September 26, 2014 by hoser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted September 26, 2014 Report Share Posted September 26, 2014 I want Amaram to die like Emil Antonowsky. I can only hope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jons Posted September 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I guess I was trying to figure out why Amaram would go to so much trouble to put on this honorable facade. Is he just deluding himself with all of this honor speak? Even when he is alone with Sadeas on the battlefield, he chastises Sadeas for going after the gemhearts to undermine Dalinar's goals. Sadeas next calls him out and lets him know that he's aware that Amaram wasn't always so honorable. I'm on my third read through and it seems like each time I finish the book I am left with more questions than answers. And really, the breadth of information; names, places, events is really quite overwhelming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I guess I was trying to figure out why Amaram would go to so much trouble to put on this honorable facade. Is he just deluding himself with all of this honor speak? Even when he is alone with Sadeas on the battlefield, he chastises Sadeas for going after the gemhearts to undermine Dalinar's goals. The easiest explanation is that Amaram is honorable, at least when he can be. When he's forced to make hard choices, though, he abandons all honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 The easiest explanation is that Amaram is honorable, at least when he can be. When he's forced to make hard choices, though, he abandons all honor. So he isn't honorable. Honor isn't something that you can turn on and off - you either are, or you aren't. While there certainly is a bit of wiggle room, giving the order to kill your own men - especially since Kaladin would have given it to him if he had asked - just so that you can get a Shardblade is a strict no-no. Amaram is NOT honorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purelake Earthquake he/him Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I think Amaram, and a lot of other villains, like Taravangian especially, are supposed to be examples of putting destination before journey, 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 So he isn't honorable. Honor isn't something that you can turn on and off - you either are, or you aren't. While there certainly is a bit of wiggle room, giving the order to kill your own men - especially since Kaladin would have given it to him if he had asked - just so that you can get a Shardblade is a strict no-no. Amaram is NOT honorable. Allow me to rephrase, then: Amaram acts honorably whenever he can, and likes acting honorable, but ultimately he won't act honorably when under pressure. As jons notes, Amaram still acts honorable even in private with Sadeas, which is when you'd expect him to drop the act if he didn't like it. The conclusion I draw from that is that it's not a big act he's putting out, he's not faking it when he does it, he prefers acting honorable. He's just not willing to act honorable when he has to deal with any serious consequences. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 True, but there is a pretty large gap between being Honorable and trying to act Honorably. However, it's not even that he's dishonorable under pressure. Whenever there's even an infinitesimal chance that being honorable will adversely affect him, Amaram shifts into Bad Cop Mode. He was under no pressure when he sold Kaladin into slavery; that was just him being the douche that he is. We saw this at the duel. He was worried about getting on Sadeas' bad side and/or getting hit with a shardblade, so he did nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 He was under no pressure when he sold Kaladin into slavery; that was just him being the douche that he is. We saw this at the duel. He was worried about getting on Sadeas' bad side and/or getting hit with a shardblade, so he did nothing. Not that I wish to take Amaram's defense, but nobody stood up for the Kohlin kids. It's not just him, everyone refused to join in. The king himself refuse to take part in it or to even let his uncle borrow his blade and it was his cousins down there. I do agree it was a most unhonorable course of action for someone who claims to be so honorable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savanorn he/him Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 True, but there is a pretty large gap between being Honorable and trying to act Honorably. However, it's not even that he's dishonorable under pressure. Whenever there's even an infinitesimal chance that being honorable will adversely affect him, Amaram shifts into Bad Cop Mode. He was under no pressure when he sold Kaladin into slavery; that was just him being the douche that he is. We saw this at the duel. He was worried about getting on Sadeas' bad side and/or getting hit with a shardblade, so he did nothing. Well, to be fair, Amaram could have just killed Kaladin but he decided to leave him alive. Not that that is good, but, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Well, to be fair, Amaram could have just killed Kaladin but he decided to leave him alive. Not that that is good, but, you know. Wasn't there a quote somewhere that Amaram stated he regretted leaving Kaladin alive? Wishing you had killed someone, tends to expunge the nobility of letting someone live in my opinion Edited October 2, 2014 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 Wasn't there a quote somewhere that Amaram stated he regretted leaving Kaladin alive? Wishing you had killed someone, tends to expunge the nobility of letting someone live in my opinion yes, but that actually supports the idea. if he won't face any bad consequence for it, he prefer to act honorable. he regrets having been honorable the time it had backfired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) yes, but that actually supports the idea. if he won't face any bad consequence for it, he prefer to act honorable. he regrets having been honorable the time it had backfired thats kinda the exact definition of being dishonorable. Doing something only for ones own gain. I mean isn't that what the good guys always do in stories? No matter how many times the bad guys try to kill them, and it would make sense to just remove the problem and kill the bad guy, they don't because it is the wrong thing to do? edit: i mean how many times in stories do you see the good guy main character say "damnation i should have killed my helpless enemy because he popped up later and pointed out what a horrible person i am" Edited October 2, 2014 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) To be fair to him, when you let someone live and they start trying to get you killed (Kaladin wanted the king to let him duel Amaram, unless I'm crazy?), I imagine anyone would regret things a bit. As to "good guys" letting bad guys live, I think the prime example is Batman. I wonder how many people the Joker has killed because Batman refuses to kill him and just puts him in jails he knows the Joker is going to escape? Edited October 2, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) To be fair to him, when you let someone live and they start trying to get you killed (Kaladin wanted the king to let him duel Amaram, unless I'm crazy?), I imagine anyone would regret things a bit. As to "good guys" letting bad guys live, I think the prime example is Batman. I wonder how many people the Joker has killed because Batman refuses to kill him and just puts him in jails he knows the Joker is going to escape? Oh believe me, if I ever get super powers I know I will undoubtedly be a villian because I see the world realistically and realize the brutal truth. The "hero" in the real world can't depend on a sudden reversal at the end of the episode. Give a bad guy enough tries at taking you out, and eventually he or she WILL succeed, and when they play for keeps, they just need once. I was just pointing out from Kaladin's order's views on honor, being to protect, as well as the other orders (even though their views are slightly different) typically hold to a rather idealistic code. Prime example being one of their main tenants IS life before death. Yes someone can REGRET the problems an individual causes, but stating "i should have killed you while I had the chance" I think carries a different connotation. Though I do realize I am ad-libbing, and not direct quoting. Edited October 2, 2014 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted October 2, 2014 Report Share Posted October 2, 2014 As to "good guys" letting bad guys live, I think the prime example is Batman. I wonder how many people the Joker has killed because Batman refuses to kill him and just puts him in jails he knows the Joker is going to escape? Batman TOTALLY kills villains! http://www.cracked.com/article_20111_the-6-most-brutal-murders-committed-by-batman.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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