Allomancy, Metalminds, and Identity

[Faerie Braids she/her]

Apologies if this has already been addressed elsewhere or is currently unanswerable, but in my recent reread of The Final Empire, I noticed something interesting: When Vin burns Sazed's pewtermind on page 487, she describes sensing a "faint...reserve within [her]" that is "beyond [her] grasp", and Sazed responds by saying "that's what it feels like when you try to use another Feruchemist's metals". Given that Full Feruchemists can actively store aluminum to remove this barrier of Identity, my question is: Can an Allomancer that is not a Feruchemist still gain the benefits of Feruchemy or even Compounding by burning an unkeyed metalmind?

[Lunamor she/her]

I think that compounding is possible for a non-feruchemist allomancer if they are able to burn the type of metal the metalmind is made of.

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Could an Augur Compound Health out of a goldmind if its proper owner messed with Identity in the right way?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible

General Signed Books 2014 (Jan. 22, 2014)

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Faerie Braids said:

Apologies if this has already been addressed elsewhere or is currently unanswerable, but in my recent reread of The Final Empire, I noticed something interesting: When Vin burns Sazed's pewtermind on page 487, she describes sensing a "faint...reserve within [her]" that is "beyond [her] grasp", and Sazed responds by saying "that's what it feels like when you try to use another Feruchemist's metals". Given that Full Feruchemists can actively store aluminum to remove this barrier of Identity, my question is: Can an Allomancer that is not a Feruchemist still gain the benefits of Feruchemy or even Compounding by burning an unkeyed metalmind?

Yes:

Spoiler

Kurkistan

If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?

Brandon Sanderson

If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive?

Kurkistan

Yeah, but still having Allomancy.

Brandon Sanderson

Still has Allomancy...

Kurkistan

And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual Connection to him.

Kurkistan

So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

Kurkistan

Was Paalm doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

But what an Allomancer gets from burning unkeyed metalminds can't be stored because they're not a Feruchemist. It would be just a burst of attribute.

[Faerie Braids she/her]

58 minutes ago, Lunamor said:

I think that compounding is possible for a non-feruchemist allomancer if they are able to burn the type of metal the metalmind is made of.

  Reveal hidden contents

Kurkistan

Could an Augur Compound Health out of a goldmind if its proper owner messed with Identity in the right way?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible

General Signed Books 2014 (Jan. 22, 2014)

 

 

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes:

  Reveal hidden contents

Kurkistan

If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?

Brandon Sanderson

If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive?

Kurkistan

Yeah, but still having Allomancy.

Brandon Sanderson

Still has Allomancy...

Kurkistan

And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual Connection to him.

Kurkistan

So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

Kurkistan

Was Paalm doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

But what an Allomancer gets from burning unkeyed metalminds can't be stored because they're not a Feruchemist. It would be just a burst of attribute.

That is really interesting. Thank you both for the WoBs!

[+asmodeus]

I'll just posit that logically, there are two problems here. Assume that every person has their own individual identity. Which means Vin has Vin's Identity and Sazed has Sazed's. And... assume, also, that an allomancer can't burn another feruchemist's metalminds because there will be an identity mismatch. Vin's soul will try to reach for the power in the metalmind, and the power will be rebuffed by it, and VIn's soul will recognize that it is not something that belongs to it, and it won't be able to burn it.

Now, sure, in this situation, if Sazed "blanks" his identity, somehow, whether through hemalurgy or feruchemy, the power he puts into his metalmind will not contain his signature. So, when Vin's soul tries to reach for this unkeyed power, it won't have Sazed's stamp on it, and so that won't be a problem. But, it is worth considering that it also doesn't have Vin's stamp on it, right? And I don't know if this would create any issues. Would Vin also need to be "blanked," in order for there to be a complete match? Would Sazed's need to take on Vin's identity first? Would you also possibly need to "blank" both Connection and Identity?

I'm unsure, and we don't understand medallions or purified Dor nearly enough to know what kind of purification they go through.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, asmodeus said:

I'll just posit that logically, there are two problems here. Assume that every person has their own individual identity. Which means Vin has Vin's Identity and Sazed has Sazed's. And... assume, also, that an allomancer can't burn another feruchemist's metalminds because there will be an identity mismatch. Vin's soul will try to reach for the power in the metalmind, and the power will be rebuffed by it, and VIn's soul will recognize that it is not something that belongs to it, and it won't be able to burn it.

Now, sure, in this situation, if Sazed "blanks" his identity, somehow, whether through hemalurgy or feruchemy, the power he puts into his metalmind will not contain his signature. So, when Vin's soul tries to reach for this unkeyed power, it won't have Sazed's stamp on it, and so that won't be a problem. But, it is worth considering that it also doesn't have Vin's stamp on it, right? And I don't know if this would create any issues. Would Vin also need to be "blanked," in order for there to be a complete match? Would Sazed's need to take on Vin's identity first? Would you also possibly need to "blank" both Connection and Identity?

I'm unsure, and we don't understand medallions or purified Dor nearly enough to know what kind of purification they go through.

Vin being blank while accessing a blanked metalminds would be better, but she can do it still even if she isn't blank. We see this working in BoM, every medallion is unkeyed and people who are keyed to their identities can still access them. An unkeyed metalmind can be access by any Feruchemist - Wayne used unkeyed Goldmind in BoM. Generally things and people with no identity are very susceptible to all kinds of interactions. An Allomancer should be able to burn an unkeyed metalmind and compound, even if they're themselves aren't blanked.

Spoiler

Questioner

In Mistborn, we know if someone puts their Identity into a metalmind, they can create metalminds other people can use. Would other people be able to use that aluminummind to overwrite their own Identity, or is it still tied to the creator because it was still keyed to their Identity when they were filling it?

Brandon Sanderson

So if you have no Identity and you fill a metalmind, that metalmind is full of Identity-less...

Questioner

Yeah, so anyone can use that. But can someone use your aluminummind?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooh wait a minute, so...that you filled with your Identity. So they would have to have your Identity already. 

Questioner

Ok, so you can't have two people fill Identity and effectively swap aluminumminds.

Brandon Sanderson

If you can...there are ways to make this happen but the best way to make what you're talking about happen, is to be filling your own Identity while having a blank metalmind. That is the best way, obviously. But there are other workarounds for both situations, like a blank metalmind is pretty easy to use. It's blank. But if you were blank, and using a blank, it's a little better. 

Questioner

Ok. Because you're both blank.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, and so I'll give you the mechanics of all this eventually, they're just trying to still figure it all out themselves. Because right now they're just doing things they've been told "do this" but they don't know the why's. But if you are blank and have a metalmind that has an Identity, right, that is not an impossible situation that you're in either.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

[+asmodeus]

These are all great points, except we know nothing about the process that leads to these unkeyed metalminds/medallions being made.

Until we do, sure, we have a good picture of what "unkeyed" means but we're still assuming that it is a simple removal of Identity from the person creating them. For all we know, the process could be a little bit more involved.

And for all we know, even if it's a simple removal of Identity, maybe there are further challenges to overcome.

[alder24]

50 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

These are all great points, except we know nothing about the process that leads to these unkeyed metalminds/medallions being made.

Until we do, sure, we have a good picture of what "unkeyed" means but we're still assuming that it is a simple removal of Identity from the person creating them. For all we know, the process could be a little bit more involved.

And for all we know, even if it's a simple removal of Identity, maybe there are further challenges to overcome.

We know how to make unkeyed metalminds - just blank your identity while storing. That's it. Investiture is keyed to your identity and if you don't have it, it isn't keyed, thus you're storing unkeyed investiture in metalmind - you've just made an unkeyed metalmind. Unsealed metalminds - medallions - are different, we don't know how they are made yet. In this case unkeyed metalminds matter.

[+asmodeus]

I do know the difference between unkeyed and unsealed minds, but even then, I don't remember the books or wobs ever explicitly stating the process for making even unkeyed minds. And then Identity is such a weird attribute, and the fact that it requires aluminium as well, makes it very... open, to having nuance. Add to that the fact that we don't really have distinct examples. Both the Bands and the Medallions (which both have different properties) are unsealed minds, not unkeyed ones. The only real example is the Wayne one, but again, we are not privy to the details of its creation, to the best of my knowledge.

And then there's also the problem of giving people the feruchemical ability to store Identity in the first place. Where are they getting aluminium ferrings from? Are people giving them to each other through hemalurgy (which would require bendalloy spikes, iirc)? Wouldn't that add some Identity contamination of its own? Does it even do that, or is it just not a problem? A lot of what happens in Bands of Mourning is speculation, which leaves it very open to being wrong, when we get to Era 3.

There's just lots of... details, surrounding how this is happening that while this seems simple in concept, too much around it is unknown, and when Brandon actually gets to writing it, it could be written in several different ways.

Edited February 13 by asmodeus

[alder24]

19 hours ago, asmodeus said:

I do know the difference between unkeyed and unsealed minds, but even then, I don't remember the books or wobs ever explicitly stating the process for making even unkeyed minds. And then Identity is such a weird attribute, and the fact that it requires aluminium as well, makes it very... open, to having nuance. Add to that the fact that we don't really have distinct examples. Both the Bands and the Medallions (which both have different properties) are unsealed minds, not unkeyed ones. The only real example is the Wayne one, but again, we are not privy to the details of its creation, to the best of my knowledge.

While it wasn't explicitly stated, there is enough to be quite certain that this is the case. BoM ch 3:

Quote

“Each man or woman has a Spiritual aspect, a piece of themselves that exists in another Realm entirely. You might call it your soul. Your Investiture is keyed to your soul—indeed, it might be a part of your soul, much as your blood is a part of your body.”
“So if a person could store their Identity,” Marasi said, “as Waxillium does with his weight…”
“They’d be without it for a time,” VenDell said. “A blank slate, so to speak.”
“So they could use anyone’s metalmind?” Marasi asked.
“Possibly,” VenDell said. [...]
“Some have been experimenting with your idea,” VenDell said, “and early results are promising. However, having a Feruchemist who can use anyone’s metalminds is intriguing, but not particularly life-changing. Our society is strewn with individuals who have extraordinary abilities—this would simply be one more variety. No, what interests me is the opposite, Miss Colms. What if a Feruchemist were to divest himself of all Identity, then fill another metalmind with an attribute. Say, strength. What would it do?”
“Create an unkeyed metalmind?” Marasi asked. “One that another Feruchemist could access?”
“Possibly,”

Investiture you're using is keyed to your identity. If you blank your identity, your investiture is also blanked. Storing it in a metalmind makes an unkeyed metalmind, because that investiture is blank, not keyed to anyone. That's a general rule. 

Spoiler

Djarskublar

*inaudible* [I asked if it would be possible to recall Breaths from an object that you had not placed there if the Awakener who did place them there had no Identity at the time.]

Brandon Sanderson

So, this is a very detailed, specific question, if you didn't hear it. It's dealing with the idea of Investiture and Identity, and things like this. If you can unkey the magic with Identity, for almost any case, it's going to make it much easier for other people to use. That's gonna be a blanket statement through the cosmere. If you can blank your Identity, it's at least gonna be able to be used by someone else with a blank Identity. Sometimes it's keyed, so the blank will not work with somebody who is themselves keyed. But if you can blank and they can blank, you can almost always guarantee the magic will be able to be used.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Mojonero

If someone without Identity Awakened an object, would anyone be able to recall the Breath? Would they need to have any breath to recall it, or could it be done by anyone at all?

Brandon Sanderson

If you could blank Identity + Awaken, yes, anyone could get it back.

(Requires intent)

RoW Release Party (Nov. 17, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

In Mistborn, we know if someone puts their Identity into a metalmind, they can create metalminds other people can use. Would other people be able to use that aluminummind to overwrite their own Identity, or is it still tied to the creator because it was still keyed to their Identity when they were filling it?

Brandon Sanderson

So if you have no Identity and you fill a metalmind, that metalmind is full of Identity-less...

Questioner

Yeah, so anyone can use that. But can someone use your aluminummind?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooh wait a minute, so...that you filled with your Identity. So they would have to have your Identity already. 

Questioner

Ok, so you can't have two people fill Identity and effectively swap aluminumminds.

Brandon Sanderson

If you can...there are ways to make this happen but the best way to make what you're talking about happen, is to be filling your own Identity while having a blank metalmind. That is the best way, obviously. But there are other workarounds for both situations, like a blank metalmind is pretty easy to use. It's blank. But if you were blank, and using a blank, it's a little better. 

Questioner

Ok. Because you're both blank.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, and so I'll give you the mechanics of all this eventually, they're just trying to still figure it all out themselves. Because right now they're just doing things they've been told "do this" but they don't know the why's. But if you are blank and have a metalmind that has an Identity, right, that is not an impossible situation that you're in either.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

If a Feruchemist using an aluminum metalmind stored their Identity to zero, then filled a coppermind with all of their knowledge, would another Feruchemist with an identity set to zero be able to access the first Feruchemist's coppermind?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm not going to tell you a definite yes or no, this is something that needs to be saved for future books, but you are thinking along the correct lines about how Identity works regarding Feruchemists.

JordanCon 2014 (April 11, 2014)

 

19 hours ago, asmodeus said:

And then there's also the problem of giving people the feruchemical ability to store Identity in the first place. Where are they getting aluminium ferrings from? Are people giving them to each other through hemalurgy (which would require bendalloy spikes, iirc)? Wouldn't that add some Identity contamination of its own? Does it even do that, or is it just not a problem? A lot of what happens in Bands of Mourning is speculation, which leaves it very open to being wrong, when we get to Era 3.

Malwish needed just one aluminum Ferring to create one F-aluminum medallion and kickstart their entire process. Just one. You can create medallions with Mistings and Ferrings alone. Hemalurgy just makes it easier. Per WoB above, a blanked Ferring can still access a metalmind that is keyed, but it's just harder.

Spoiler

Yata

If you have 32 Misting and Ferring, every kind possible, without using Hemalurgy, you can craft a medallion? Without the aftermath of the--

Brandon Sanderson

So could you craft a medallion... without-- oh. That should be possible, but this is one of the things where I have to dig out the notes and double-check myself. But this should be possible.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)