Allomantic Grenades Advancement Ramifications

[Duxredux he/him]

I don't recall a thread on Allomantic grenades after TLM, so I'll put one here with a few thoughts.

In TLM we see some advancements in Allomantic grenade tech. Instead of getting briefly charged and then using Allomancy a few seconds after the charge, we see grenades that can hold a charge for quite some time and then be toggled on and off. Despite the drawback that the powers seem to be omnidirectionally deployed, this small development changes a lot.

We've seen the following powers used with some effectiveness. We see some applications of Marasi using a Steel grenade to some limited effect in TLM. We've seen Cadmium used quite effectively, Bendalloy, and the Set likes using the cubes for Leeching. Granted that last seems a bit iffy, as the first grenade is recovered after Irich lobs it at Marasi... and Marasi just picks it up and keeps it.

There's quite a few Allomantic powers that are rather pointless to put into a grenade until tech advancements allow them to be combined with other components. Pewter, Tin, Aluminum, Duralumin, Gold, and Electrum basically do zilch unless combined with something else. Steel, Iron, and Brass are iffy to use with minimal control, though Zinc could probably work well for riot control. Copper, Bendalloy, and Cadmium are the ones that change the least from how they are used conventionally and are some of the more useful and intuitive powers to put in a grenade.

So, why do I say this changes a lot? You've probably noticed the metal I haven't mentioned yet: Nicrosil. Every Allomancer now has Duralumin in their pocket. It's toggleable, holds a charge for a long time, and there's none of this throwing around important equipment business. Because the Allomancer retains control over their own targeting, they can now effectively use Duralumin almost as easily as Vin. You need someone to charge it periodically, but that's way easier than Hemalurgic Duralumin. 

There's also other applications of a grenade that holds a charge and is toggleable. For example, take a Steel-charged grenade, wrap it on all a sides with Aluminum and install it and the switch into a gauntlet and you have limited Iron Man repulser gauntlets. Charge your grenade with Iron instead, and you have limited Spiderman tethering. TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

Remember that Steelpush gauntlet the Scadrian used on Sigzil? Yeah, remembered it doesn't have to grant allomancy for that scenario to work, a grenade will do just fine. If the researcher also was wearing one of those weight change bands (or maybe it's built into the glove and optionally increases weight simultaneously with firing off a Steelpush) then that totally works with what we see. No new tech needed.

Era 3 with a Nicrosil protag is going to be interesting.

Edited January 26, 2024 by Duxredux
Wrong acronym, thanks alder24

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

In TLM we see some advancements in Allomantic grenade tech. Instead of getting briefly charged and then using Allomancy a few seconds after the charge, we see grenades that can hold a charge for quite some time and then be toggled on and off. Despite the drawback that the powers seem to be omnidirectionally deployed, this small development changes a lot.

The switch was already present in BoM and they also were able to work for a long time - that's how they power sliders. They simply didn't have any time to charge them for so long during the events of BoM. BoM ch 17

Quote

Marasi frowned, turning the cube. The sides had little grooves between them. She looked closer, and in the sunlight spotted something she hadn’t seen before. A tiny little knob hidden in one groove. It looked like … well, a switch. Nestled in, where it couldn’t be flipped accidentally.

 

10 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

There's quite a few Allomantic powers that are rather pointless to put into a grenade until tech advancements allow them to be combined with other components. Pewter, Tin, Aluminum, Duralumin, Gold, and Electrum basically do zilch unless combined with something else.

Aluminum or duralumin actually does a lot. Aluminum creates an area where nobody can use powers, while duralumin (and nicrosil) supercharge everyone in the area. Those powers are very useful when combined with grenades.

Spoiler

Rodrigo

What would be the difference between an aluminum and a chromium grenade, and between nicrosil and duralumin grenades?

Brandon Sanderson

We're talking specifically about the Bands of Mourning ones?

*Matt affirms*

So, what would be the difference? Aluminum would create a sort of "You can't use Allomancy in this... nearby this" most likely, yeah. Duralumin would do the opposite. You would be able to use it and then enhance someone. I haven't played with the ranges on these things yet, and so that's where we get into kind of the question mark territory. Like, right now, I haven't really given them an area of effect unless the power itself has an area of effect. Does that make sense?

But, my intent is to get to the point where it's doing things like this, right. Where you could theoretically be an Aluminum Gnat, you could charge this thing up and throw. And hey, you know, you have... the Metalborn nearby are unable to use their talents. That's convenient, right? Like, I want more of the powers to be relevant and these grenades are a way to do that.

You know, Marasi's power is not the most useful on the planet to have herself. For those who don't know, she can slow down time... well, speed up time? Awkward how... the phrasing of how you do that. But basically she can make a bubble around herself where everyone outside of it moves super fast. That's not terribly useful, right? Unless you want to age, you know, really slowly.

[...]

Not really useful in combat, to be able to be like "Yeah, I'm gonna make all my enemies move really, really fast and I can't respond to them". But, she can charge up one of those grenades and toss it, it becomes real handy. For her, the grenades are more useful than the inverse, right, because speeding up someone is useful, but slowing someone down takes someone out of the battle essentially. Or a whole globe of them... globe is the wrong term, but yeah.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

13 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

So, why do I say this changes a lot? You've probably noticed the metal I haven't mentioned yet: Nicrosil. Every Allomancer now has Duralumin in their pocket. It's toggleable, holds a charge for a long time, and there's none of this throwing around important equipment business. Because the Allomancer retains control over their own targeting, they can now effectively use Duralumin almost as easily as Vin. You need someone to charge it periodically, but that's way easier than Hemalurgic Duralumin. 

Yup, but it also would supercharge everyone near you. For example let's say that in the first fight of TLM, when Marsai was fighting Set's Hemalurgist, she would have had this nicrosil/duralumin cube and used it when the Hemalurgist was tapping pewter - it would instantly make him tap all of his attribute at once, granting him practically strength for a split second. If he isn't prepared for something like this, he can't utilize this, he would just lose all of his stored attributes at once, which would be an effective, but highly dangerous tactic to get rid of someone's metalminds storage. 

18 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

TLM spoilers:

That's TSM spoilers, not TLM  

19 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

TSM spoilers:

  Hide contents

Remember that Steelpush gauntlet the Scadrian used on Sigzil? Yeah, remembered it doesn't have to grant allomancy for that scenario to work, a grenade will do just fine. If the researcher also was wearing one of those weight change bands (or maybe it's built into the glove and optionally increases weight simultaneously with firing off a Steelpush) then that totally works with what we see. No new tech needed.

 

TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

True, but nothing else around or behind Sigzil moved, this steelpush had to be targeted at his metal directly. So it's either unsealed nicrosilmind or they found a way for primer cubes to choose individual targets, which likely isn't just aluminum. 

 

[Duxredux he/him]

22 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yup, but it also would supercharge everyone near you. For example let's say that in the first fight of TLM, when Marsai was fighting Set's Hemalurgist, she would have had this nicrosil/duralumin cube and used it when the Hemalurgist was tapping pewter - it would instantly make him tap all of his attribute at once, granting him practically strength for a split second. If he isn't prepared for something like this, he can't utilize this, he would just lose all of his stored attributes at once, which would be an effective, but highly dangerous tactic to get rid of someone's metalminds storage. 

Huh. Didn't know that. That said, this area of effect issue should also be addressable with wrapping it and or you with aluminum.

[SomePog]

Kinda not connected to the orriginal discussion but does anyone else think that when we get to era 4 scadrian (or maybe all spaceships) will use an advanced form of the allomantic grenades that can utilize feruchemy and then using F-Cadmium as a oxygen supply

[Duxredux he/him]

On 1/29/2024 at 5:32 PM, SomePog said:

Kinda not connected to the orriginal discussion but does anyone else think that when we get to era 4 scadrian (or maybe all spaceships) will use an advanced form of the allomantic grenades that can utilize feruchemy and then using F-Cadmium as a oxygen supply

We know that tech that grants Feruchemical powers to objects has already been invented. Back in BoM, when the set took over the Southern Scadrian ship, they mentioned a weight changing device on the ship. Now changing a ship's weight seems pretty straightforward compared to external oxygenation, but I think they'll figure something out. Maybe they'll need to create a system that mimics a human respiratory system to oxygenate something, to just throw out an off-the-cuff possibility.

Now whatever primary method they use for atmosphere or oxygen, ettmetal primer cubes, medallions given to individual crewmembers, or a Feruchemical machine that oxygenates and pressurizes the space ship, it will likely be a question of scale, logistics, and resource efficiency. For example, knowing the energy demands of FTL and how additional mass plays into that could be quite important. Normally adding a kilo of mass to a ship that has to accelerate and decelerate to reach a destination lightyears away would add a huge energy cost. The Southern Scadrian airship runs off of Ettmetal and Allomantic Grenades have ettmetal in them as well, though I don't know the rate that they are consumed (if they are). How does Ettmetal energy density compare to the maximum density of Investiture stored in a Metalmind when every gram of extra mass will increase the cost of motion? Alternately, while F-Iron medallions can be used while sleeping, is the same for F-Cadmium which requires much more finesse and regulation than just shedding all your weight? Have they figured out how to grant more abilities per medallion, or would they be better off with a ship-wide atmosphere as opposed to individual life-support? I'm not sure, but these factors make a difference when you're talking literal rocket science. It's not just the technology itself, it's the sustainability, robustness, cost, mass, and more that play a role.

Probably not exactly what you're asking, but there will probably be technologies that technically could be used, might be reserved for an emergency, but not the main system on a space ship. Zephyr spores for example are meant to be emergency oxygen supplies, and could probably provide some emergency thrust for maneuvering, you would never be able to pack enough aboard a ship to use as the primary systems for thrust or oxygen.

Edited January 31, 2024 by Duxredux