How much water for Aetherbinding and other questions

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I know there really isn't a great indication or answer for how much water you need to get effect X, Y, or Z. That doesn't stop me from asking opinions. Do you think the water consumed could be broken down into some form of mass conversion? We saw Twinsoul prepare to leave on the mission in TLM and he basically took a camelbak. I am curious how big you think that pack of water was? I assume he over hydrated before leaving as well as taking as much as he could carry. A big camelbak is 100oz or right around 3liters. Do you think he took a bigger pack than that? Water is also heavy and cumbersome. I am curious how much you think Twinsoul actually carried with him on that expedition? So would it be fair to gauge an Aetherbounds capabilities based on the amount of water or hydration they have available to spend? With more use does the Aetherbinding get cheaper or more expensive? And does a higher growth rate drain more hydration for the same end result than if you were to build it slowly?  Example: Would Twinsoul's 3D map drain more water if he built it faster or drain less if he drained it slower? 

How do you think this would all work across a Bendalloy Bubble? Since you are bound to Silajana through your bud or whatever does that mean that Silajana's mind is capable of communicating at different speeds across the cosmere? She is bound to multiple practitioners so would that mean that when one practitioner is under the effects of time dilation the Aether is able to function the same regardless?   

Other questions I have in regard to this: Hydration and water aren't exactly the same thing as each other. Magics in the cosmere seem to cover up some scientific inconsistencies that would otherwise harm the users. I assume that when an Aetherbound uses their powers they have some sort of magical protection from the electrolyte imbalances that could happen. But could you use some extreme hydration tricks to help out? If carbs help hold water could an Aetherbound carb load a ton to help the body retain more water? Do you think that drinking more of a saline mixture would be more beneficial to an Aetherbound than to drink plain water? If you drink a mouthful of water is that immediately available or does it need to be processed slightly more than that before it becomes useful as a fuel for Aetherbinding? 

Edited January 17 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Duxredux he/him]

Let's see... to answer your questions the first question that needs to be answered is to what extent are Aetherbound different from Aether spores? A lot of your questions are answered for spores, but we haven't seen enough Aetherbound to know.  In ToTES, the speed of growth of verdant is compared to lightning and Tress creates a climbable vine tree by flicking a drop of spit onto the emerald sea when climbing the Crow's Song. Growth rate and maximum growth possible from a single verdant spore is well documented and forms the basis for the timers on their cannonball technology after the initial burst of growth. The zephyr spore pouches used to fire cannons are also generally measured out to get at least mostly consistent shots. So, yes, mass conversion calculations for Aether spores, growth rates, etc. are already being done in-world. Most of this probably applies to Aetherbound, but I don't know to what extent. Who knows if Silajana needs extra water to speed the growth or is constantly regulating the growth rate so as to not be too explosive. It could be that the growth rate is very fast and Silajana simply takes minute portions of water at a slower rate.

No idea to what extent time dilation will affect things. I don't remember if Twinsoul ever was caught in one of Marasi's Cadmium bubbles, but I don't think he was. Presumably the communication between Aetherbound and their Prime Aether is Connection based and instantaneous on the order of tamu keks, span reeds, or Seon calls. In the case of spore eaters, the water absorbed from the host almost certainly is transported via Connection shenanigans to the prime Aether on the moon, so I'm guessing water transfer also happens as instantaneously as communication. As for speed bubbles, even Harmony wasn't able to communicate with Wayne in the extreme Duralumin-enhanced speed bubble, so there are limits even for Shards, but I'm not sure to what extent. We've seen the mind of a Shard, Aether's are brand new and while they follow Cosmere rules we've barely seen anything of them. 

As for your hydration questions, depends on how much you want to delve into the nitty gritty. The Wikipedia articles you'll probably want to look up are hypovolemia, hypervolemia, and fluid balance. You are right that hydration and water are different, and in this case I think you need to lean towards water, not hydration. Aethers react to water and unlike muscle or nervous tissue they don't need to utilize electrolytes to function or produce waste products that have to be expelled via sweat, urine, or excrement. If anything, a saline solution may hinder an Aetherbound compared to pure water. There absolutely is magic protecting someone with a Luhel bond and it's very directly stated as such when Tress almost becomes a dried husk when using Midnight spores for the first time. The degree that she had shriveled up and the speed that she was able to reinflate after drinking water were directly called out as being magically sustained in both directions, so who knows if she went beyond the bounds of conventional hypovolemic shock. Electrolyte imbalance is probably a lower concern compared to the loss of blood pressure that comes with extreme fluid loss as capillaries can no longer refill and the heart has to work overtime to try to force blood through what is basically a deflated hose. Extreme cases of hypervolemia is at more than 40% blood volume loss, which in the context of bleeding can be over 2 liters. As for extreme hydration tricks, you have to carry the water one way or another, it's not like the water in your body weighs less than water outside of your body, though granted more work may need to be done based on distance moved from your center of mass. If you compare the mechanisms of increasing water storage internally (dietary storage capacity of foods that help retain liquid or self-imposed hypervolemia) and external storage (a water bottle, stopping at a drinking fountain, camelbak, etc.) then it looks pretty clear to me that external storage is healthier, simpler, easier, and more scalable. At any rate, a spindly geriatric was doing just fine as an Aetherbound so regulating health and fluid balance as an Aetherbound is certainly feasible and probably not as complicated as it sounds like it could be. Asking if you can hold water in your mouth and access it as an Aetherbound is probably a moot point as people can pretty much chug water continuously and we know that the body can quickly reverse the extreme dehydration caused by a Luhel bond. It's not like Allomancy where someone can leech you and leave your stores drained with no metals to burn. Typical healthy humans have at least a liter or two of water they can utilize and drink back before it becomes dangerous. If you're out of water you're dead anyway. 

Edited January 18 by Duxredux

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Let's see... to answer your questions the first question that needs to be answered is to what extent are Aetherbound different from Aether spores? A lot of your questions are answered for spores, but we haven't seen enough Aetherbound to know.  In ToTES, the speed of growth of verdant is compared to lightning and Tress creates a climbable vine tree by flicking a drop of spit onto the emerald sea when climbing the Crow's Song. Growth rate and maximum growth possible from a single verdant spore is well documented and forms the basis for the timers on their cannonball technology after the initial burst of growth. The zephyr spore pouches used to fire cannons are also generally measured out to get at least mostly consistent shots. So, yes, mass conversion calculations for Aether spores, growth rates, etc. are already being done in-world. Most of this probably applies to Aetherbound, but I don't know to what extent. Who knows if Silajana needs extra water to speed the growth or is constantly regulating the growth rate so as to not be too explosive. It could be that the growth rate is very fast and Silajana simply takes minute portions of water at a slower rate.

No idea to what extent time dilation will affect things. I don't remember if Twinsoul ever was caught in one of Marasi's Cadmium bubbles, but I don't think he was. Presumably the communication between Aetherbound and their Prime Aether is Connection based and instantaneous on the order of tamu keks, span reeds, or Seon calls. In the case of spore eaters, the water absorbed from the host almost certainly is transported via Connection shenanigans to the prime Aether on the moon, so I'm guessing water transfer also happens as instantaneously as communication. As for speed bubbles, even Harmony wasn't able to communicate with Wayne in the extreme Duralumin-enhanced speed bubble, so there are limits even for Shards, but I'm not sure to what extent. We've seen the mind of a Shard, Aether's are brand new and while they follow Cosmere rules we've barely seen anything of them. 

As for your hydration questions, depends on how much you want to delve into the nitty gritty. The Wikipedia articles you'll probably want to look up are hypovolemia, hypervolemia, and fluid balance. You are right that hydration and water are different, and in this case I think you need to lean towards water, not hydration. Aethers react to water and unlike muscle or nervous tissue they don't need to utilize electrolytes to function or produce waste products that have to be expelled via sweat, urine, or excrement. If anything, a saline solution may hinder an Aetherbound compared to pure water. There absolutely is magic protecting someone with a Luhel bond and it's very directly stated as such when Tress almost becomes a dried husk when using Midnight spores for the first time. The degree that she had shriveled up and the speed that she was able to reinflate after drinking water were directly called out as being magically sustained in both directions, so who knows if she went beyond the bounds of conventional hypovolemic shock. Electrolyte imbalance is probably a lower concern compared to the loss of blood pressure that comes with extreme fluid loss as capillaries can no longer refill and the heart has to work overtime to try to force blood through what is basically a deflated hose. Extreme cases of hypervolemia is at more than 40% blood volume loss, which in the context of bleeding can be over 2 liters. As for extreme hydration tricks, you have to carry the water one way or another, it's not like the water in your body weighs less than water outside of your body, though granted more work may need to be done based on distance moved from your center of mass. If you compare the mechanisms of increasing water storage internally (dietary storage capacity of foods that help retain liquid or self-imposed hypervolemia) and external storage (a water bottle, stopping at a drinking fountain, camelbak, etc.) then it looks pretty clear to me that external storage is healthier, simpler, easier, and more scalable. At any rate, a spindly geriatric was doing just fine as an Aetherbound so regulating health and fluid balance as an Aetherbound is certainly feasible and probably not as complicated as it sounds like it could be. Asking if you can hold water in your mouth and access it as an Aetherbound is probably a moot point as people can pretty much chug water continuously and we know that the body can quickly reverse the extreme dehydration caused by a Luhel bond. It's not like Allomancy where someone can leech you and leave your stores drained with no metals to burn. Typical healthy humans have at least a liter or two of water they can utilize and drink back before it becomes dangerous. If you're out of water you're dead anyway. 

Thanks for this. Yeah I was mostly concerned with hyper/hypo-kalemia or hyper/hypo-natremia.  Had a patient with a midline getting potassium the other day and it through him into some whacky arrhythmias.  Simple enough to swap down to a much smaller vein up stream to help dilute it before it hit the heart.  But the electrolytes are spooky.  Magical protection seemed the best solution and you make a good point about an old dude being an example of aetherbinding not killing you off.  

It sounds like a conventional camelbak with just about 3liters of storage can double or more the typical capacities of an aetherbound good to know.  

Come to think of it I don't think I remember Twinsoul ever even needing to drink from that.  He did pretty minor things with his power and then skipped straight to purified dor for the Aetherbinding Finale.  

 

[Treamayne]

It may not be Aethers, but is almost definitely a Luhel Bond, so you may also be able to cross reference White Sand (spoilering this since it tends to be the most common "didn't read" Cosmere work at this point):

Spoiler

White Sand shows that, for most Mastering, the water loss is felt first in the Vitreous Humor, as Kenton mentions a few times that "his eyes burning and feeling dry" is the first noticible sign of overmastery.

So, to me, this implies that a measured constant rate of consumption pulls from all cells of the body, but not from undigested water. Stable Sand Mastery is simply using Sand at a rate that the body can replace the fluids through digestion before damage is done to any body systems. When the mastery rate exceeds the water processing rate, dehydration begins and the sand master must consume more water or break from mastering sand until the body "equalizes."

 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

It may not be Aethers, but is almost definitely a Luhel Bond, so you may also be able to cross reference White Sand (spoilering this since it tends to be the most common "didn't read" Cosmere work at this point):

  Hide contents

White Sand shows that, for most Mastering, the water loss is felt first in the Vitreous Humor, as Kenton mentions a few times that "his eyes burning and feeling dry" is the first noticible sign of overmastery.

So, to me, this implies that a measured constant rate of consumption pulls from all cells of the body, but not from undigested water. Stable Sand Mastery is simply using Sand at a rate that the body can replace the fluids through digestion before damage is done to any body systems. When the mastery rate exceeds the water processing rate, dehydration begins and the sand master must consume more water or break from mastering sand until the body "equalizes."

 

Ah okay. This paints a better picture in my head and I am going to go with it given the comparisons and theories that it may actually be more related to aethers.  

So your stable rate is how fast the cells replenish the water.  

This makes me think that F bendalloy would probably help well and that the hydration is from the cells not just the water of the body.  The excess electrolytes are likely taken care of via the magic or they are used up at the same time as the water. 

I feel like healing in the cosmere would likely fix the dehydration from killing you while still not fixing the hydration issue itself. Like being strangled... you are alive and living but until you breath the gold would have to be used constantly. That does leave me curious if you were to consume a large amount of water and then used some healing as a severely dehydrated person... would the gold speed up the whole osmosis process with the available water and make it available for more use faster?  

I haven't read anything on Sandmasters but please don't be shy with the spoilers. Same with Tress. I don't have the time to read more... just faster to ask the shard for the mechanics.  It seems like water applied to aether spores causes an effect. Does pouring water directly onto white sand do anything or is it only through the mastery? Potentially showing a difference in spores vs aetherbound style usage. 

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Does pouring water directly onto white sand do anything or is it only through the mastery? Potentially showing a difference in spores vs aetherbound style usage. 

There is definitely a difference, I'll try to explain, though it may be easier to read the Coppermind Arcanum entries from Khrissalla's Journal (starting here).

White Sand Spoilers:

Spoiler

• Unlike Aethers, White Sand stores investiture and uses the water provided by the Luhel Bond to convert stored Investiture into potential or kinetic energy (whereas Aether Spores convert Investiture via water catalyst into Mass)
  • Technically, it's not the sand at all, but a microrgansim (microflora algae) that lives on the sand that both stores investiture and forms Luhel Bonds
• Physical Water (as opposed to water shared through the Bond) on Sand that has stored investiture will release all of that investiture, undirected (appears as an opalescent light - think of it like Duralumin Mastery) - during the Bond, it's the sand master's will that directs how that release is expressed and how quickly. 
  • Note the similarity in that a Spore given water without a bond expresses all of it's investiture into mass immediately and undirected - but with a bond it can be directed and controlled in size and speed
• Overmastery seems to be the same (very similar) in that if you go too far into dehydration you die, but if you go far enough and survive you will have made your capacity for the Luhel bond stronger and be able to control more Sand - and, like Feruchemy - the investiture also provides the capacity to use it. 
  • Kenton notes that at 5 ribbons his "mind expands making it easier to have multiple appendages each doing different things" much like Tress dehydrating and finding it easier to form and control the bond with Midnight (my theory is that the Overmastery with Midnight is why she was also finally able to sense the bond in other aethers as well - more attuned through overmastery)  

All of that together is why my theory for Bone Spores is:

Spoiler

Autonomy purposefully crafted the White Sand Algea based on how Aethers work, trying to make a similar process that does not need a Prime Aether. Millenia later, stories of White Sand made their way to Lumar and, because they function so similarly, became the legends of the "Bone Spore." Because Lumarians have no context for spores "changing colors" the legends disagree on if it is white or black.