First Radiants after the Recreance

[NH2316]

I'm re-reading books 1-4 before wind and truth (currently at beginning of RoW), and one question that's been going through my mind is....how many radiants were there since the Recreance, if any at all, before the current story starts?

I've had more trouble finding a confirmed answer to the "how many, if any at all" question than I expected (searching the coppermind, forums, WoB, and in my re-read), which has only made me more intrigued.   

Of characters we've seen in the books, the first to bond a spren would seem to be Shallan/Testament.  Of course, Nale also has been around killing surgebinders for a while, starting sometime after the Recreance.  As far as I can tell, we don't have confirmation when Nale started this, but I'd guess "a while before Shallan/Testament?" Technically, even if Nale was doing it for a long time that too doesn't rule out the possibility that Shallan is the overall "First", because we don't know if any of the surgebinders Nale murdered were bonded & progressed enough to get their blade.   Which raises other questions in turn, like how "successful" was Nale at preventing radiants before Shallan?  Did he kill them all before they progressed far enough?  

 

Does anyone know the answer to this? Do people expect we could learn more in future books about Radiants before the current characters (but after the Recreance)?  

 

Note, I've made a few assumptions her, namely that "Radiant" means they've not just bound a spren but gotten their blade. While I'm still unsure on whether getting a blade is the "true" cutoff for "Radiant" vs. "Surgebinder not yet a Radiant", it seems to me from what's said about Kaladin in books 1/2 that the very earliest steps of binding a spren and surgebinding aren't considered as such.
 

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

I'm re-reading books 1-4 before wind and truth (currently at beginning of RoW), and one question that's been going through my mind is....how many radiants were there since the Recreance, if any at all, before the current story starts?

None except for Skybreakers. Only Skybreakers didn't participate in the Recreance and only this order existed after it, and kept bonding spren. There were no other Radiants appearing. Some time before the True Desolation started, spren started to feel it's coming and some decided to bond humans again. We're probably talking about several years or decades before WoK. But all of those were hunted down and killed by Nale and other Skybreakers, or they've decided to join Skybreakers instead. Keep in mind that after the Recreance spren were furious and terrified of humans. They couldn’t forgive them for killing so many of them, entire nations were wiped out (all Honorspren except for Syl were killed) and they were unwilling to trust humans again with their lives. Only something like a threat of a new Desolation convinced a few of them to bond, even if they knew humans will kill them eventually - that was the case with Testament and Pattern. 

The first Radiant to survive all of this was Shallan, who bonded the Testament years ago and she was nearly killed by a Skybreaker acolyte. The second one was Jasnah, who started to develop her bond around the time of Gavilar's assassination. Then we have Tien, Kaladin, Renarin Lift and Dalinar, others following after them, and others who didn't make it because of Nale - like Ym. But all of those new Radiants appeared shortly before or after WoK, not earlier.

It's possible that Szeth also was bonded, because in OB he mentioned that he used to hear a voice like Nightblood, which sounded like a spren to me. It makes sense because he had to know from somewhere that a new Desolation is coming and there is no better source than a spren feeling it. This bond was likely broken by Bondsmith Honorblade and spren might even get imprisoned in a gemstone. But this part about Szeth is all speculation based on one vague sentence.

 

Spoiler

LuckyJim

I've been really curious for a while about the modern Skybreakers and how they operated while in secret. To keep things short and avoid RAFO territory, what were the modern Skybreakers doing for their fourth ideal crusades? I'd imagine they must have been different from the sorts of crusades classic Skybreakers did, since their main purpose and general methodology seems to have shifted. Was it just stuff like "I will eliminate such and such radiant" or did they have other important missions that could qualify for a crusade?

Brandon Sanderson

Their crusades can actually be rather varied. They are different these days, but often involve joining and trying to help law enforcement in various countries. Watching tor Radiants was actually not often part of it, since Nale did that--and it isn't until recently that it's actually come up.

General Reddit 2021 (Jan. 1, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

The Skybreakers, are they from the old Radi-- the old Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they've still been around. Not all of them. They aren't still alive-- The ones back then are not still alive, but they have an unbroken chain. The only Order that has that. They're the only one that didn't abandon their Oaths.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Tesh (paraphrased)

How was Nale able to keep recruiting Skybreakers even after the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The spren simply didn't leave, and kept bonding Radiants.

English Reading Series at BYU 2018 (Feb. 23, 2018)

OB ch 40:

Quote

A second group who knew the Desolations might return are the Skybreakers. Led by the ancient Herald Nalan’Elin—often simply called Nale—the Skybreakers are the only order of Radiants that did not betray its oaths during the Recreance. [...]
Nale himself is ruthless, without pity or mercy. He has spent the last two decades—perhaps much longer—dealing with anyone close to bonding a spren. Sometimes he recruited these people, bonding them to highspren and making them Skybreakers. Others he eliminated. If the person had already bonded a spren, then Nale usually went in person to dispatch them. If not, he sent a minion. [...]
Nale may also have learned, through means we do not understand, that a member of your house was close to bonding a spren.

 

33 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

Which raises other questions in turn, like how "successful" was Nale at preventing radiants before Shallan?  Did he kill them all before they progressed far enough?

I would say he was very successful because there is no mention or appearance of Surgebinders anywhere. He might have a way of telling where are the people close to forming a bond with a spren. We don't have a random Radiant coming out of the closet with the 5th Ideal already sworn because they've been bonded for 50 years or something like that. All of this is very new for both people and spren and Jasnah is the most experienced and advanced in her Oaths.

42 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

Note, I've made a few assumptions her, namely that "Radiant" means they've not just bound a spren but gotten their blade.

Then it's better to say either a Full Knight or a Radiant of the 3rd Ideal. I believe Shallan was of the 4th Ideal with Testament when she broke her bond. Jasnah seems to swear it in between OB and RoW.

[NH2316]

Thanks.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

None except for Skybreakers.

Right, I should have been clearer - I meant other than skybreakers, since they didn't participate in the Recreance.   

 

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I would say he was very successful because there is no mention or appearance of Surgebinders anywhere. He might have a way of telling where are the people close to forming a bond with a spren.

Yeah this is the part that's interesting to me...assuming he stopped all of them.... How did he know where and when to find them? Maybe the skybreakers were more integrated into society for intelligence gathering about possible radiants than I've assumed, plus or minus getting some knowledge from the Highspren via what they knew of other radiant spren movement in shadesmar.  That said, it seems like someone could likely have slipped through especially in light of the WoB you cited above (thanks for that!) suggesting that this was more of a Nale thing and the rest of the order wasn't exactly laser-focused on hunting surgebinders 24/7 like he was.  It just seems strange and intriguing - to my knowledge we don't really have an in-world mechanism yet where someone would be able to "detect" a spren bond happening just anywhere in Roshar, other than the stormfather /bondsmith, when an ideal is being sworn.  Presumably there is another way, which Nale used, and we just don't know it yet.....

 

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, NH2316 said:

Yeah this is the part that's interesting to me...assuming he stopped all of them.... How did he know where and when to find them? Maybe the skybreakers were more integrated into society for intelligence gathering about possible radiants than I've assumed, plus or minus getting some knowledge from the Highspren via what they knew of other radiant spren movement in shadesmar.  That said, it seems like someone could likely have slipped through especially in light of the WoB you cited above (thanks for that!) suggesting that this was more of a Nale thing and the rest of the order wasn't exactly laser-focused on hunting surgebinders 24/7 like he was.  It just seems strange and intriguing - to my knowledge we don't really have an in-world mechanism yet where someone would be able to "detect" a spren bond happening just anywhere in Roshar, other than the stormfather /bondsmith, when an ideal is being sworn.  Presumably there is another way, which Nale used, and we just don't know it yet.....

We don't know. We've seen his acolytes in Edgedancer novella searching for a Surgebinder there using documents and witness testimonies, but Nale already knew a Surgebinder was there and knew who it was - somehow. We've also seen him taking a testimony from a captain about Lift, but that's probably a secondary step, once he knows where to search in general. He knew there was a Surgebinder in the Davar family, he knew there was a Surgebinder in Amaram's army (Tien) and stuff like that. We don't know how at all. Mraize suggested that Nale, as a Herald, might have possessed knowledge that others can't have. It might be some kind of fabrial, or it might be some kind of use of Fortune, "telling" him more or less where and when to be, but he still needs to search for that person - something like what Hoid is using. But those are just wild guesses. OB ch 40:

Quote

Nale believed that men speaking the Words of other orders would hasten the return of the Voidbringers. We do not know how this could possibly be true, but as a Herald, Nale has access to knowledge and understanding beyond us. [...]
Nale may also have learned, through means we do not understand, that a member of your house was close to bonding a spren. [...]
From our spying upon the Skybreakers, we have records showing the only member of Amaram’s army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated.

[Zrogezrg]

The thing is that we do not have a single entry regarding any specific skybreaker action prior to Shallan.

From what I gathered:

1. Honorspren seem all to be against bonding and only after Syl bonds Kaladin there is some change there.

2. Cryptics decide to start bonding and Shallan seems to be first one they try.

3. Stormfather Bonds Dalinar and maybe also a bit of something with somebody else shortly before (Stormlight 5 prologue), Simbling "sleeping", Nightwatcher playing with boons.

4. Inkspren think of bonding similar to assassination, Adolin hears in Lasting Integrity that the solution is to try to kill human prior to bond forming (kind of similar to what skybreakers were doing)

5. Cultivationspren similar to cryptics, decide (Ring) to bond Lift only after Cryptics and Honorspren.

6. Ashspren do not like humans.

7. Mistspren, some shananigans with Sja-anat but also no information.

8. Lightspren (Reachers) - no information to anything prior True desolation.

9. Peakspren - no relevant information

To me it is not obvious why there should be any rouge spren trying to bond prior to coming of true desolation. We know that they were as that was what Nale was dealing with. One incident per month, year, decade? No idea, we have records of only what happened near True Desolation which is when things accelerated.

Presumably, the individual spren would remember that Nale did play spoiler in their bonding, but we have no mention of that. Maybe Syl for hundreds of years was bonding humans but before she could gain more sapiens in PR her bonding target was killed and she has no recollection of that. Just a happy speculation ;).

[Duxredux]

I have a few speculative ideas for Nale's Radiant hunt. I don't really have anyway of confirming them though short of asking in a WoB.

The Heralds have a special Connection with the Radiants. Ishar comments that they all see a bit more clearly when a Radiant swears an oath and touches the Spiritual Realm. Perhaps Nale can feel and subsequently triangulate when a Radiant swears an Ideal and starts forming a Nahel bond starting from the First Ideal? Maybe his status as a 5th Oath Skybreaker increases that connection as well. Another option is that his Highspren was giving him intel in a similar fashion to Syl seeming to instinctively know where Kaladin was/would be and later which members of Bridge Four were close to progressing in their Oaths. There's a precedence for spren knowing where a bond could be sworn and presumably Nale's spren trusts him if it allowed his final oath to become The Law and it isn't just about tracking movements in Shadesmar.

The part I really don't get is why Nale didn't come hunting Kaladin, Shallan, and Jasnah. Unless... each case somehow had another proto-Radiant nearby that was confirmed to be killed and so they got missed, SA 5 preview spoilers:

Spoiler

Tien, Helaran, and Gavilar respectively? Not sure if Gavliar was close to Radiance but something clearly was going on with him.

Still hard to explain why the main series Radiants' subsequent Oaths or Truths spoken didn't alert Nale.

[NH2316]

4 hours ago, Zrogezrg said:

Maybe Syl for hundreds of years was bonding humans but before she could gain more sapiens in PR her bonding target was killed and she has no recollection of that. Just a happy speculation ;).

I love this.  The idea of a single rogue spren bonding humans again and again only to get killed by Nale every time could be a really interesting story - I'd definitely read that novella.  Brandon does seem to be interested in borderline-Sisyphean character arcs - i.e. where a hero faces challenges that border on the absurd, yet they persist anyway (a la Camus' "One must imagine Sisyphus happy").  Taln is probably the most pure Sisyphus analogue, but I think you could argue other characters have at least some of that flavor - Kaladin grappling with the somewhat impossible answer of what it means to be a protector in world where multiple parties at war each deserve protecting in their own way (also, whether violence can ever "save"),  and certainly some from other stories *spoiler*

Spoiler

....In the secret projects, Sumi is especially like this. You get hints of impossible eternal burden that bends-but-does-not-break Sigzil in Sunlit Man.   

Anyway, a Spren who binds humans again and again despite getting killed every time would fit that mold and I think be a compelling story. I wouldn't guess Syl specifically, just because we do know a lot about her activities prior to binding Kaladin (at least compared to other spren), but could totally see it as something that's plausible within the continuity....including for most other radiant spren we now know about. I actually wouldn't count on the spren remembering each time about their prior attempts - we know that Syl doesn't remember her previous radiant until she's progressed quite far with Kaladin and regained a large portion of her Physical Realm sapience & sentience.  However, she does seem to remember the pain associated with losing a bond long before she remembers the prior radiant and details about her life before kaladin.  Maybe the same for Pattern?  Although - always has been unclear to me how much or how little Pattern knew about Testament early on.  He's super matter-of-fact all the way back in WoR that Shallan is going to kill him and the cryptic will send someone to replace him and that's mostly something they're OK with....so maybe the differences compared to honorspren means he knows more.

 

Either way though, that would make a great novella or secret history type story.

 

 

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

The part I really don't get is why Nale didn't come hunting Kaladin, Shallan, and Jasnah. Unless... each case somehow had another proto-Radiant nearby that was confirmed to be killed and so they got missed, SA 5 preview spoilers:

  Hide contents

Tien, Helaran, and Gavilar respectively? Not sure if Gavliar was close to Radiance but something clearly was going on with him.

Yeah this is the part that bothers me too.  It would seem to me that not chasing our three earliest Radiants likely eliminates Nale using a magical method of locating them (e.g. sense of Connection via spiritual realm between radiants/heralds), and moreover implies that whatever the mechanism he used it actually had a lot of flaws.....and hence he should have missed more radiants in the past (depending on how long he's been at it).  I like the "masking" idea - reminds me of how in Star Wars Jedi like Yoda hide their presence in the force by remaining close to strong wells of power (Dagobah swamp).  I could see a few issues with some of the individuals...but like you said this is pure speculation until further details which could explain the discrepancies:

 

Spoiler

Tien - definitely plausible early on.  That said, Kal doesn't start seeing Syl until after Tien dies, right? Also, why wouldn't Nale come to kill him once he was at Shattered plains and started swearing oaths (i.e. pretty far from where Tien died)?

Gavilar - This is the messiest to me. Under the assumption that whatever is going on with the stormfather (or "fake stromfather") is close enough to a bond to confuse Nale....why does Nale work with him instead of killing him in the first place?  I see a couple possibilities (rampant speculation here) -  1. Maybe he makes an exception because Gavilar could be useful.  But.... he also knows Gavilar is working with the sons of honor which seems like it would run right up against Nale's raison d'être for killing surgebinders....and also the one thing it seems like Nale would NEVER make is an exception .  2. Maybe Nale didn't start his "purge" until after Gavilars death. If so, Jasnah would have escaped too since she bonded the same night. 3. Maybe Gavilar being King prevents him from finding the legal loophole he needs to justify the murder....he does seems to need a legal pretense to kill surgebinders (Ym, attempt on Lift, etc.).  Anyway, even if one of the above is true, the parts that still don't work so well are Elhokar (he starts seeing cryptics in the Shattered Plains after his fathers death....though he doesn't say the 1st ideal until later I guess) and Renarin (starts bonding GLys presumably during WoR, though maybe the Sja-anat effect here blocks him from being detected by Nale....Renarin as a rule does not follow the rules).  So....all plausible that there's a masking thing.....just very very messy.

Helaran - This is the easiest one to believe.  He was a skybreaker acolyte so Nale definitely knew he died and that ironically would make it easier to dismiss anyone in proximity by confirmation bias.  Also, a different skybreaker acolyte died near Shallan earlier.  Plus the whole likelihood that Chanarach and maybe even Ba-ado-Mishrim were hanging around the Davar house.....MAN what a tragic family.

 

Also, I guess a masking effect wouldn't need work only by "physical" proximity....maybe it is a masking effect but it's more like masking via people close to you via Connection who were "port-radiants" then died.    That would clean up some of the above "messiness" since you have relatives in each case.  

 

Either way, though, all the above leaves so many questions about how it worked and (at least to me) really raises doubts that whatever Nale used to find surgebinders was actually that effective....hence, leaving the door open to write in another radiant or two being in hiding until Nale gives up his hunt in oathbringer.

Edited January 13 by NH2316

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

The part I really don't get is why Nale didn't come hunting Kaladin, Shallan, and Jasnah. Unless... each case somehow had another proto-Radiant nearby that was confirmed to be killed and so they got missed, SA 5 preview spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Tien, Helaran, and Gavilar respectively? Not sure if Gavliar was close to Radiance but something clearly was going on with him.

Still hard to explain why the main series Radiants' subsequent Oaths or Truths spoken didn't alert Nale.

Good theory, makes sense. Ishar said "Everyone sees a little more clearly when a Radiant touches the Spiritual Realm" and there is ONE Radiant who constantly touches SR - Renarin. All three of them were somewhat close to Renarin location wise and this might act just like with Odium's future sight - sending ripples through SR and disrupting Nale's sensing ability. We don't know when Renarin bonded Glys but we know that this kind of bond can take years to develop, like between Syl and Kaladin. She was with him all those years ago, slowly forming the bond, the same might be true with Renarin.

1 hour ago, NH2316 said:

Spoiler

why does Nale work with him instead of killing him in the first place?

 

SA 5 prologue:

Spoiler

The very first time Nale met with Gavilar he ordered Venli to kill him. He was against Gavilar's plans.

 

1 hour ago, NH2316 said:

Spoiler

2. Maybe Nale didn't start his "purge" until after Gavilars death.

 

Mraize's letter to Shallan contradicts this and Shallan killed her mother more or less at the same time, so he already had to be working on killing Surgebinders before.

1 hour ago, NH2316 said:

Spoiler

3. Maybe Gavilar being King prevents him from finding the legal loophole he needs to justify the murder

 

RoW ch 77:

Spoiler

Quote

“I have legal jurisdiction here to act on behalf of the king,” Nale said. “I cannot, however, take specific action against him. Tonight I found reason to have him killed, but it will take me months of planning to achieve the proper legality.
“Fortunately, I have read your treaty. There is a provision allowing one party to legally break it and attack the other—should they have proof the other is conspiring against them. I know for a fact that Gavilar is planning to use this very provision to assault your people in the near future. I give you this knowledge, sworn by a Herald of the Almighty. You have proof that he is conspiring against you, and may act.
“The man who can help you is a slave for sale in the market. The person who owns him is hoping some of the king’s wealthy visitors will want to pick up new servants before the feast. You have little time remaining. The slave you want is the sole Shin man among the crowd. The gemstones your people wear as ornaments will be enough to buy him.”
“I don’t understand,” Venli said. Nale looked at Ulim on her shoulder.
“This Shin man bears Jezrien’s Blade. And he is expertly trained in its employ.” He looked back to Venli. “I judge you innocent of any crime, using provision eighty-seven of the Alethi code—pardon of a criminal who has a more vital task to perform for the good of the whole.”

 

 

 

[NH2316]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

“I have legal jurisdiction here to act on behalf of the king,” Nale said. “I cannot, however, take specific action against him. Tonight I found reason to have him killed, but it will take me months of planning to achieve the proper legality.
“Fortunately, I have read your treaty. There is a provision allowing one party to legally break it and attack the other—should they have proof the other is conspiring against them. I know for a fact that Gavilar is planning to use this very provision to assault your people in the near future. I give you this knowledge, sworn by a Herald of the Almighty. You have proof that he is conspiring against you, and may act.
“The man who can help you is a slave for sale in the market. The person who owns him is hoping some of the king’s wealthy visitors will want to pick up new servants before the feast. You have little time remaining. The slave you want is the sole Shin man among the crowd. The gemstones your people wear as ornaments will be enough to buy him.”
“I don’t understand,” Venli said. Nale looked at Ulim on her shoulder.
“This Shin man bears Jezrien’s Blade. And he is expertly trained in its employ.” He looked back to Venli. “I judge you innocent of any crime, using provision eighty-seven of the Alethi code—pardon of a criminal who has a more vital task to perform for the good of the whole.”

Right, forgot about this part.....guessing that's where the idea for Gavilar's immunity from Nale (at least directly) via being King came into my head in the first place haha