Thoughts on KoWaT after reading Sunlit Man

[CameronUluvara she/her]

alright. Brandon said SM contained spoilers for SA5, so we know at least some of what Sigzil did happened during this next book. In RoW, Kaladin said he thought several members of Bridge 4 were close to the 4th, but were holding back out of some weird deference to him. So I'm assuming several Windrunners will have Plate almost immediately into KoWaT, and among them Sigzil. We know he has to reach the 4th before switching over to Skybreaker (if he even did switch) because he had two plates to intermingle, so this significantly shortens the timeline. He can switch/take the dawnshard at any time. 

The dawnshard leaves Wit incapable of causing physical harm to any one else. However, Wit has been gathering magic systems and is now quite powerful outside of the dawnshard power. So my theory is that something happens in KoWaT that convinces him he really needs to get involved, and he gives away the dawnshard to Sigzil so that he can interfere in the Contest of Champions. Thus, Sigzil "saved the cosmere" in Wit's perspective by helping Wit keep Todium contained.

Sigzil no longer holds the Dawnshard. He gave it away after a short time. I'm assuming he gave it to someone on Roshar. I'm also assuming that this someone is Kaladin. (Kaladin is also the other member of Bridge 4 that Brandon describes as "hoid-touched") Sigzil has been running for like, a hundred years at this point. But he briefly thinks he sees Kaladin on Canticle, which would be impossible unless Sigzil knew that Kaladin was also long-lived and had the ability to travel around because of the Dawnshard. I also think its real dumb that Kaladin would be able to do anything to help Ishar help Dalinar with his new therapy knowledge, or even by swearing the 5th ideal (which he probably knows and is probably some variation of "Sometimes I have to protect myself) but with a Dawnshard he probably could help with Ishar's Spiritual problems. 

Alternatly, Sigzil gave the Dawnshard back to Hoid or to someone else and Kaladin got spiked by the Night Brigade. I saw the theory somewhere, can't remember, that the Night Brigade must have spiked someone close to Sigzil to gain a Connection that allows them to always follow him everywhere. This also feeds into Sigzil never going back to Roshar because he's afraid the Night Brigade will hurt the people he loves. Either Kaladin got spiked a bunch and is controlled somehow, and Sigzil thought he saw Kaladin on Canticle because Kaladin has been chasing him this whole time, or they spiked and killed him, and Sigzil's just being wishful. And, if the Night Brigade killed Kaladin, then Sigzil would be in charge of the Windrunners, and in SM he talks about how some disaster happened while he was in charge of the Windrunners. And if that was just him being melodramatic about the Urithiru invasion, I'll eat my hat.

Another thing is, Sigzil doesn't seem to have abandoned his Windrunner oaths for Skybreaker oaths. I think, in KoWaT, Honor got hurt real bad, like maybe Splintered or Shattered, so bad that Windrunners don't exist anymore, because there's no more surge of Adhesion, or all the Honorspren got killed. If Sigzil had simply Recreanced his honorspren, he'd still have the Blade. But he doesn't. He only has his windspren plate and Auxiliary. I think somehow all the Windrunners got poofed and they had to go join other orders or other spren started trying to fulfill the honerspren role. In SM, we never see Auxiliary encouraging Sigzil to fulfill some ideal of justice or the law; it's always about protecting people. And he talks about highspren changing. So I think, even though Auxiliary is a highspren, he's acting kind of as Sigzil's honorspren. Another thing for this is that Sigzil never tries to use or even thinks about how useful it would be to have Division or Adhesion-he's only worried about Gravitation. Because he's still a Windrunner, not a Skybreaker, so he never had access to Division and Adhesion went poof somehow. 

 

wow I don't know if any of that makes sense. So what I'm thinking for SA5 is Sigzil swears his 4th, gains the dawnshard, Wit uses his new freedom to do something probably terrible and he "watches the world burn to get what he wants", Sigzil gives the dawnshard away, Honor is broken/Adhesion is gone/the honorspren all die(or are turned in humans via Ishar's experiments-remember, they lasted the longest), then other true spren start trying to replace the honorspren, somehow through swearing Windrunner oaths, they bond the old Windrunners to keep the order alive, Auxiliary bonds Sigzil, the Night Brigade shows up on Roshar and kills someone Sigzil loves/spikes someone Connected to him, and Sigzil starts skipping.

[+Harrycrapper]

Couple issues with your timeline, though I'll admit the communities understanding of the timeline is a bit wonky. If I remember correctly, Sigzil spent a fairly significant amount of time with the Dawnshard, it wasn't just a momentary thing. He gets to the 4th ideal with both his Honor spren and Auxillary and from what I recall he spent multiple years with Aux before accidentally "killing" him with the Dawnshard. 

The other thing is that I don't think Hoid can just give up the Dawnshard and become capable of violence again. He held it for much longer than Sigzil did and was much more affected by it than him. 

[Argenti he/him]

1 hour ago, CameronUluvara said:

The dawnshard leaves Wit incapable of causing physical harm to any one else. However, Wit has been gathering magic systems and is now quite powerful outside of the dawnshard power. So my theory is that something happens in KoWaT that convinces him he really needs to get involved, and he gives away the dawnshard to Sigzil so that he can interfere in the Contest of Champions. Thus, Sigzil "saved the cosmere" in Wit's perspective by helping Wit keep Todium contained.

 

At the point of SA, Hoid does not possess the dawnshard. He released it.

[alder24]

44 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

The dawnshard leaves Wit incapable of causing physical harm to any one else. However, Wit has been gathering magic systems and is now quite powerful outside of the dawnshard power. So my theory is that something happens in KoWaT that convinces him he really needs to get involved, and he gives away the dawnshard to Sigzil so that he can interfere in the Contest of Champions. Thus, Sigzil "saved the cosmere" in Wit's perspective by helping Wit keep Todium contained.

This theory is pretty much busted because of the timeline, and the fact that Hoid is no longer a Dawnshard, he gave it up long ago. Sizgil became a Dawnshard when he was 38 years old. That seems like years into the future. In RoW Sigzil doesn't feel like being in his late 30s, he's more like in his 20s. Admitablely, I couldn't find information about Sigzil's age in SA so we don't fully know what's his current age. TSM ch 11:

Quote

“How old do you think I am?” Nomad said, amused.
“Older teens?” Confidence said.
“No, older,” Contemplation replied. “Young twenties.”
Storms. He knew that he looked a lot younger with the grey no longer appearing in his hair, but young twenties? He’d been thirty-eight when time had finally stopped tracking him, his soul bending under the Dawnshard’s influence—and that was by his planet’s accounting, which had longer years than most.

Only after he became a Dawnshard did he bond with Aux. That means that the "spoiler for SA5" is most likely referring to Sigzil's "mistake" as the leader of Windrunners (as he seems to regret his decision made as a leader and doesn't want to be put in this position again) and his decision to abandon the order for whatever reasons. TSM ch 33:

Quote

“Can’t say,” he replied. “But don’t be so eager. There are burdens to being in charge that you’re not considering. I guarantee it.”
She glanced at him. “Is that what happened to you?”
“Let’s just say that leadership didn’t agree with me.”
That’s not true, Nomad. You were a good leader.
“Aux, ‘good’ isn’t enough. Life, like measurements in science, often depends entirely on your frame of reference.”

I agree, in KoWT we will see Sigzil swearing the 4th Ideal and getting his plate, then most likely committing this "mistake" of his, and later abandoning the order of Windrunners.

58 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Sigzil no longer holds the Dawnshard. He gave it away after a short time. I'm assuming he gave it to someone on Roshar.

I don't think so. First, what does it mean that he held it for a short time? We only know he held it shorter than Hoid did. Secondly, he bonded with Aux as Dawnshard (they met in CR, possibly leaving Roshar imo), he swore 4th Ideal and broke his Oaths, before Dawnshard consumed Aux in self-defense. But they'd spent decades together before Dawnshard killed Aux. Sigzil was a Dawnshard for decades. That's a long time, but still shorter than Hoid. TSM ch 6:

Quote

Good luck with that, the knight replies with an exhaustive amount of rueful skepticism. Nomad missed the days of inflection in that voice. Aux might have started their relationship hesitant to show his true self, but after decades together, his expressiveness had grown and grown. Until that day.

 

1 hour ago, CameronUluvara said:

I'm also assuming that this someone is Kaladin. (Kaladin is also the other member of Bridge 4 that Brandon describes as "hoid-touched") Sigzil has been running for like, a hundred years at this point. But he briefly thinks he sees Kaladin on Canticle, which would be impossible unless Sigzil knew that Kaladin was also long-lived and had the ability to travel around because of the Dawnshard.

Well, Kaladin saw Tien in a vision, Dalinar saw Nohadon etc - you can reach into SR and bring those Connections to dead people out, creating visions like this. This might be such an example. I mean by this that Sigzil thinking this was Kaladin doesn't mean Kaladin is alive. Sigzil was shocked by this thought, as it was almost impossible, which implies that Kaladin is dead by now. TSM ch 9:

Quote

That was a person standing there, wasn’t it? Holding something that glowed in his fingers, a sphere. Wearing a uniform, facing away from Nomad, looking out through the darkness.
Storms. It couldn’t be. It couldn’t.

To add more, Hoid can't Skip, despite the fact he was the same Dawnshard for longer than Sig. Not every former Dawnshard can Skip, this WoB suggest that only Sig can:

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there a specific reason as to why Hoid cannot Skip, but Nomad can?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is a specific reason for that. I'll get into it someday. Let's just say the Skipping started because of a certain event, that probably I won't write a book to talk about, but you will get an answer to that someday I hope. So it's a RAFO, but a RAFO with a little bit of a promise.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

1 hour ago, CameronUluvara said:

Alternatly, Sigzil gave the Dawnshard back to Hoid or to someone else and Kaladin got spiked by the Night Brigade. I saw the theory somewhere, can't remember, that the Night Brigade must have spiked someone close to Sigzil to gain a Connection that allows them to always follow him everywhere. This also feeds into Sigzil never going back to Roshar because he's afraid the Night Brigade will hurt the people he loves. Either Kaladin got spiked a bunch and is controlled somehow, and Sigzil thought he saw Kaladin on Canticle because Kaladin has been chasing him this whole time, or they spiked and killed him, and Sigzil's just being wishful. And, if the Night Brigade killed Kaladin, then Sigzil would be in charge of the Windrunners, and in SM he talks about how some disaster happened while he was in charge of the Windrunners. And if that was just him being melodramatic about the Urithiru invasion, I'll eat my hat.

Interesting. That's much more likely in my opinion. But Sigzil IS in charge of Windrunners as of RoW. Kaladin retired and Sig replaced him. RoW ch 15&116:

Quote

Kaladin announced that Sigzil—with whom he’d conferred earlier in the day—would take over daily administration of the Windrunners, overseeing things like supplies and recruitment. He’d be named to the rank of companylord. Skar, when he returned from leave at the Horneater Peaks, would be named company second, and would oversee and lead active Windrunner missions.

[...]

“The Ideals don’t fix us, sir,” Kaladin said. “You know that. We have to fix ourselves. Perhaps with a little help.” He saluted. “We were on the correct path with me, sir. I need to take time away from the battle. Maybe so much time that I never return to full command. I have work to do, helping men like me and Dabbid. I’d like your permission to continue.”

 

1 hour ago, CameronUluvara said:

Another thing is, Sigzil doesn't seem to have abandoned his Windrunner oaths for Skybreaker oaths. I think, in KoWaT, Honor got hurt real bad, like maybe Splintered or Shattered, so bad that Windrunners don't exist anymore, because there's no more surge of Adhesion, or all the Honorspren got killed.

I don't agree. Honor already is Splintered and Surges work just fine. They still exist, because Honor's investiture is on Roshar. If you were to take all of that investiture out of Roshar, then Surgebinding (the invested art) might cease to exist - but this didn't happen because Aux still exists and he is partially Honor. Surges won't just disappear. 

My guess is that a full truth came out about the First Desolation - when humanity arrived on Roshar - and about Honor allowing Odium to settle on Roshar. Sig seems to despise the very concept of honor and being honorable in TSM. Whatever truth was exposed it shaked his moral code, which resulted in abandoning his Oaths, or possibly even a second Recreance. Ch 40:

Quote

He clasped his hands behind his back, remembering what it felt like to wear that uniform, bear that armor, carry those oaths. “I had to ask myself, once it was all done, if honor was a sham. If it was a ruse used to make men kill one another—to let them pretend there was a purpose to it. If that concept—the very idea of an honorable soldier—was not the most pernicious evil that had ever blighted the cosmere.”

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

1 hour ago, CameronUluvara said:

If Sigzil had simply Recreanced his honorspren, he'd still have the Blade. But he doesn't.

He might have just leave it, or break the bond without killing his Honorspren (there are ways to do it before 5th Ideal, Notum said that in OB).