I think Elhokar is a radiant

[maxal she/her]

Since Wit is Hoid, and Hoid is there to meddle, if Hoid is showing sustained interest in a person it is for a specific reason--that interest is of note.  It doesn't necessarily mean that the person is good, or special, but that they have the capability of being important to Hoid's plans.  We can speculate all we want on why Hoid is showing interest (maybe it's to keep Elhokar from being worse!  Maybe it's to make sure he makes a decision poor to Roshar but good for Hoid! Who knows?), but in every other instance of Hoid showing interest in someone they had an important role to play.  This happened in Mistborn, Warbreaker, WoK, and WoR (I was Cosmere unaware when I read Elantris last and don't remember him, but I imagine that it would be the same).

 

Then again, he could have also been keeping his role as Wit to gain access to the Kholins, and Elhokar himself is unimportant to the plans.  While very possible, it just doesn't seem right to me.

 

Actually, we have a nice recent WoB claiming Hoid's interest in people means... nothing. Hoid just tells people what he believes they need to hear and yeah he does make mistake. We should not be making the mistake in placing too much importance on Hoid's behavior towrads characters.

 

 

That bolded sentence hits the nail on the head.  Everyone in his family has been more successful, arguably more important, than him--even though he was the heir to the throne and later the king.  He is the average son in a family that is incredibly above average in intelligence and skill.  And his family doesn't seem to have helped the matter any, but rather helped to encourage his immaturity.  Then, Gavilar dies and he's suddenly thrust into being the King long before he's actually prepared or ready, or before Alethkar itself is ready, and immediately has to deal with High Princes who have spent literally decades in the game of brutal politics and warfare.

 

Yes, but instead of using his family as fuel to better himself, he beats himself down for it and stubbornly refuse to see he is the problem. He blames the entire world and yet refuses to see most if not all of his issues are related to himself. He sees himself as a victim and he keeps entertaining this idea as it gives him leeway to complain and whine. This way, he can blame the entire universe for his failure and yet end up doing nothing to improve it.

 

 

Dalinar himself tells us that Elhokar managed to hold the nation together, and that's worthy of a lot in and of itself.  He's still a bad, immature king that hasn't grown up the way he should have.  And maybe he isn't, today, material worthy of being a Radiant.  This doesn't mean that he's wholly and entirely awful and without any worth or that he will always have nothing to offer.  It just means that he never grew up, because he was never forced to do so.  Growing up and maturing isn't something that just spontaneously happens--it has to be encouraged.  Birds know that there's a time when the babies have to leave the nest and fly on their own, but Elhokar has been stuck in that nest for far too long.  I think that we'll see a lot of really good changes in him after spending time with Lopen's mom.

 

 

He was put in a bad situation, I agree, but he did not man up to it. The only reason the kingdom didn't crumble apart was because he had both Dalinar and Sadeas's support. Period. It is not something he has achieved. All parties agreed a civil war was not a good idea right now and there is also the Vengeance Pact that allowed all Highprinces to get richer and richer without loosing too much resources. Nobody had anything to gain from throwing Elhokar down from his throne, nobody, until Sadeas.

 

It could be Elhokar will grow up and turn out being this amazing Radiant, however the whole issue I have with this theory is it supposed a spren has already chosen him, as he is now: incompetent, petulant, childish, immature, temperamental...

 

As for Lopen' mom, honestly, I just fail to see how a few days with another forceful person would help change him around.

 

I also absolutely fundamentally disagree with your last sentences here--Elhokar does try.  Over and over again he tries.  He consistently chooses the wrong option, or the wrong decision, or fails--but never because he's a bad person.  It's always in the heat of the moment, or due to bad advice, and we see how he is able to gradually be shown the more correct path.  He didn't just execute Kaladin, but put him in prison; a few days later, he allowed Kaladin to be released.  A bad person would have executed Kaladin out of hand, as well as anyone who spoke out against it.  He's childish, and petulant, and needs to grow the hell up--absolutely no argument.  But he's not, for instance, Sadeas (a man who remained selfish all through his years, but matured enough to get his way by being cunning, brutal, and evil.)

 

I am sorry, but no he does not try. Dalinar had to browbeat him into just letting Kaladin sit in prison. The man was willing to execute a good soldier who saved his cousins' life simply out of jealousy. And he didn't just put him in prison for a few days so he could cool down: he put him in there for WEEKS. WEEKS is how long it took him to let Kaladin go free.

 

 

Well, he did want Kaladin executed, but Dalinar stopped him. Anyone else, and Elhokar probably would not have been stopped - Dalinar is in charge, and Elhokar knows it. Of course, one could argue he was just using the argument with Dalinar as a means of testing his control, and wasn't actually interested in punishing Kaladin, but that's not what Elhokar later claims. Could be a bit of both.

 

Yes. I agree.

 

 

Overall, I wouldn't use this scene in support of the idea that Elhokar is "trying". It's not exactly a virtue for someone to try to get someone executed because you're jealous. It's something of a virtue to later apologize for it, but that's still not much of an endorsement of a character - just imagine saying "well, my friend murders people in fits of rage because he has no self-control, but at least he tries not to and apologizes after the fact - he's not as bad as <insert evil dictator here>".

 

Excusing it by saying it only happens "in the heat of the moment" is not something I can agree with, as Kaladin would still be dead after Elhokar cooled down. It was a huge reason I was apathetic about the end to Kaladin's arc - the book built up Elhokar as someone who should have been deposed and we were constantly hammered with that fact. That Dalinar was willing to keep him in charge is worrying, and he has a definite blind spot for Elhokar.

 

Exactly. Dalinar is blind to Elhokar's misgiving and this will lead to more issues. He forgives him anything despite the fact he has had people murdered simply for being petty.

 

 

At some point, you have to wonder whether Elhokar is actually trying or just has fits of insecurity which make him briefly wish he could be "better". It's suspicious that he always has an excuse - it's possible he's just a genuinely incompetent and unlucky person, but it's just as likely that he's very good at rationalizing past decisions to make it seem like he was trying to do the right thing when Dalinar yells at him for doing something wrong.

 

He has the victim complex. He sees himself as one and therefore refuse to acknowledge he is the problem. He blames it on trusting the wrong person or listening the wrong advice and fails to see it is his immaturity, his temper and his lack of leadership that is bringing the kingdom down.

 

 

(As a side note which is tangentially related: what on earth made Elhokar choose Aesudan? He married her before Gavilar's death, which seems fairly premature. She's basically as bad as he is, only she doesn't have Dalinar constantly stopping her from making decisions. I would love to have an Elhokar book, if only to see that romance(?) develop.)

 

Elhokar was 22-23 when Galivar died, so according to the Alethki society, it is normal he is married. Adolin is 22 and it is a scandal he is not married yet. Everyone begrudges Dalinar for not having chosen a wife for his son to which Dalinar's respond he wants the boy to have a say in the matter. My guess is Elhokar did not have a say: he was married to Aesudan because the alliance must have made sense. This is how most high ranked people were married.

[Slater he/him]

It's funny that nobody has brough up this comparison yet. But really if were talking about Elhokar's worthiness of being a Radiant then how has he not been compared to Dalinar yet?

 

Remember the person Dalinar was for most of his life was NOT worhty of being a Radiant, he was a brutal warlord who lived for the Thrill. More then that he was basically Gavilar's attack dog, he thought about killing his brother out of jelousy and when Gavilar first made contact with the Listeners he wanted to destroy them. What part of that past indicates that he could end up the leader of the new Radiants?

 

Not only that, but Dalinar didnt start to become a better person until Gavilar died and he read WoK. Which he did when he was in his fourties. It took something horrible happening to him to finally start to grow past being a pitless killer.

 

Basically If Dalinar can live the life he did, and be that person he used to be and then still become worthy in his fifties when most of his life is still stained with blood, and the thing that FINALLY pushed him onto the right path and to actually grow as a person only happened seven years ago then Elhokar definatly has a chance. It doesnt have to be soon (Remember there is a 10 year time skip after book five) but something tramatic enough happens to wake him up? Absolutly possible.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Slater130

[maxal she/her]

It's funny that nobody has brough up this comparison yet. But really if were talking about Elhokar's worthiness of being a Radiant then how has he not been compared to Dalinar yet?

 

Remember the person Dalinar was for most of his life was NOT worhty of being a Radiant, he was a brutal warlord who lived for the Thrill. More then that he was basically Gavilar's attack dog, he thought about killing his brother out of jelousy and when Gavilar first made contact with the Listeners he wanted to destroy them. What part of that past indicates that he could end up the leader of the new Radiants?

 

Not only that, but Dalinar didnt start to become a better person until Gavilar died and he read WoK. Which he did when he was in his fourties. It took something horrible happening to him to finally start to grow past being a pitless killer.

 

Basically If Dalinar can live the life he did, and be that person he used to be and then still become worthy in his fifties when most of his life is still stained with blood, and the thing that FINALLY pushed him onto the right path and to actually grow as a person only happened seven years ago then Elhokar definatly has a chance. It doesnt have to be soon (Remember there is a 10 year time skip after book five) but something tramatic enough happens to wake him up? Absolutly possible.

 

I think we are not arguing about Elhokar ever changing to be Radiant worthy in the not so near future, but about whether Elhokar is worthy now as he is seeing shadows. I agree everybody deserves a chance to change and Dalinar sure took it, but currently Elhokar is not Radiant material and I doubt spending a few days with Herdazian is going to change much about it.

 

Besides, whereas I agree Dalinar's past is a bloody one, we must not forget everyone he knows treats him with respect and acknowledge him as a great man. One of his son is in complete admiration before him and his other son is willing to throw himself under a chasmfield for him. His niece calls him the "best man she has ever known" and Jasnah did know the Blackthorn. I mean, if Dalinar had been a scumbag up until 6 years ago, I doubt his entire family would see him this way. His sons would be angry at him and his niece would not praise him such. I think Dalinar may have been a terrible warlord, but he did have a heart. It is just he could not control his anger and it got the better of him, most of the time. He is said to have passion and it leaded him for most of his life, until he finally learned to temper it down.

 

Dalinar, I believe always had potential. Elhokar, I don't see it. He does not look like he has a generous heart like Dalinar or Adolin. He is just petty.

[kaellok he/him]

Actually, we have a nice recent WoB claiming Hoid's interest in people means... nothing. Hoid just tells people what he believes they need to hear and yeah he does make mistake. We should not be making the mistake in placing too much importance on Hoid's behavior towrads characters.

If you can post the relevant WoB for this, I would be very interested.  I could not find it with my quick searches.  The closest that I could find don't really say that at all.

 

 

 

I am sorry, but no he does not try. Dalinar had to browbeat him into just letting Kaladin sit in prison. The man was willing to execute a good soldier who saved his cousins' life simply out of jealousy. And he didn't just put him in prison for a few days so he could cool down: he put him in there for WEEKS. WEEKS is how long it took him to let Kaladin go free.

I am going to continue with both Dalinar and Kaladin's assessment of Elhokar that he does, in fact, try.  We absolutely do not have any good examples of this happening in text, but I'll trust their judgment.  Especially from Kaladin, as he rather hates lighteyes in general--and he recognizes this during the very moment at the greatest depth of his inner turmoil over whether to allow Elhokar to be murdered or not.

 

 

"Give me a reason why he doesn't!" Kaladin yelled, uncaring if the ardents heard.  "It might not be his fault, and he might be trying, but he's still failing."

 

It hadn't been Tien's fault.  Tien had tried.  He'd still failed.  So they'd killed him.

Kaladin fell to his knees in the water.  "Almighty, oh Almighty."

The king...

The king was Dalinar's Tien.

We'll just have to agree that we disagree on this issue. 

 

Regarding his possible Radianthood, he saw spren.  Whether they were voidspren or Odiumspren, or cryptic spren, or something else entirely, is unknown.  Based on that one facet alone, I think that it's worth looking to see if it's possible there's hidden depths to his character.  We actually don't see much of him on-screen at all, and most of that is negative, which explains why most people don't like him.  I still think he is far more Radiant-like than Szeth, because the only thing Szeth does is follow the laws of the Shin absolutely--not even those of other nations.  So the crimes of Szeth are much more numerous, and worse.  It seems increasingly like he'll find a home in the Skybreakers, though, and so I wouldn't rule Elhokar out yet--likely one of the Orders we know nothing about (he is certainly no Windrunner!)

[maxal she/her]

If you can post the relevant WoB for this, I would be very interested.  I could not find it with my quick searches.  The closest that I could find don't really say that at all.

 

Here it is: I was lazy yesterday...

 

Q: Does Wit specifically treat people differently when he knows they’re (going to) have a spren bond? (E.g. Renarin, Dalinar)

A: Yes, Wit treats people differently, but it is not because of present or nascent spren bonds. He has an opinion of what each person needs to hear. He isn’t always correct in this opinion, but he tries to give people what he thinks they need. In Dalinar’s case, he simply has too much respect for the man to be glib. In Renarin’s case, he believes that the boy has had more than enough breaking down, and is much more in need of building up

 

The way I read it is Hoid's behavior towards people is irrelevant to their pertinence in the future story. Besides, even if we end up disagreeing on the interpretation of this WoB, there is the fact we have absolutely no clue as to what Wit thinks of Elhokar. Hoid is playing Wit because it gives him an excuse to hear all the rumors and tease people. I do not think it has anything to do with Elhokar. Elhokar likes Wit, but this is irrelevant as well. Adolin likes Wit as well and it means nothing. Adolin likes a good laugh and Elhokar probably likes seeing his peers being tormented.

 

 

 

I am going to continue with both Dalinar and Kaladin's assessment of Elhokar that he does, in fact, try.  We absolutely do not have any good examples of this happening in text, but I'll trust their judgment.  Especially from Kaladin, as he rather hates lighteyes in general--and he recognizes this during the very moment at the greatest depth of his inner turmoil over whether to allow Elhokar to be murdered or not.

 

Well, we know it took weeks to calm down enough to let Kaladin go. Weeks, not days. After three days, Adolin resolved to imprison himself as well probably because talking and arguing with the king yielded no results. So for weeks, he kept being angry and jealous enough of Kal to let him rot in prison. He probably spend the whole time toying with the idea of executing Kal after all. The fact house Kohlin literally lost Adolin for weeks as well did not seem to help temper his mood.

 

So no, Elhokar does not try. Anyone that needs week to calm down after such a trivial event, anyone who feels the need to trust in prison the man who saved his cousins life is not trying. He has not try to see reason: he just remained angry until it stop making sense.

 

I do not base my opinion of Elhokar on Kaladin's views, especially not after the prison scene. I base my opinion on his actions or inaction. Kaladin is wrong in thinking Elhokar deserves death: he does not, but he sure does need to either man up or give it up. I personally disagree with Kal's comparison of Elhokar to Tien. He justifies his decision to not kill Elhokar anymore based on the Elhokar appears to have tried, just like Tien. Both situation are so different, it is laughable. Tien was an untrained boy trust into the mist of battle by a scumbag looking for a mere tactical advantage. Yeah, he tried, but really, there is nothing he could have done. Nothing. Elhokar is a grown man who should know better, who has the tools to do better, but refuses to see his own faults, refuses to take action on them and refuses to work on improving. Tien had no choices whereas Elhokar had many choices. Just look at the murder of Moash's parents... Sure he listened to a bad advice, but after months, he had the choice to revise his opinion, to realize the non-sense of this imprisonment: he could have acted despite having made the mistake of listening to a scumbag. He didn't. That is the issue with Elhokar. It is not the fact he makes mistakes, it is the fact he never tries to correct them, he never learns from them, which why I think he is not Radiant material no matter what he is seeing.

 

 

We'll just have to agree that we disagree on this issue. 

 

Regarding his possible Radianthood, he saw spren.  Whether they were voidspren or Odiumspren, or cryptic spren, or something else entirely, is unknown.  Based on that one facet alone, I think that it's worth looking to see if it's possible there's hidden depths to his character.  We actually don't see much of him on-screen at all, and most of that is negative, which explains why most people don't like him.  I still think he is far more Radiant-like than Szeth, because the only thing Szeth does is follow the laws of the Shin absolutely--not even those of other nations.  So the crimes of Szeth are much more numerous, and worse.  It seems increasingly like he'll find a home in the Skybreakers, though, and so I wouldn't rule Elhokar out yet--likely one of the Orders we know nothing about (he is certainly no Windrunner!)

 

We can agree to disagree.

 

Sprens are not all order related. I have looked into Elhokar's character and I have found no evidence he could possibly be a Radiant. I disagree about Szeth. Szeth trapped himself into an impossible situation: he couldn't disobey to his oathstone owner and yet he couldn't disobey to the law. Szeth turn himself crazy over trying to figure it out. It is only at the end of WoR he realize he has been used: he had inklings before, but no solid confirmation.

 

Elhokar just stubbornly refuse to learn from his mistakes. There is just a limit upon justifying your mistake on circumstances... oh it was bad advice, oh I should not have been this harsh, oh I should have done this or that... All these conclusions are easy to make, after the deed is done. What is hard is correcting them and Elhokar has not raise one finger to do so, ever.

[bobsaveg he/him]

I thought Elokar might have turned into a radiant in WOK but
 

Spoiler
 
 
near the end of WOR he is talking to kaladin on page 967 and said that Kaladin made them go away, the shadows and shapes that he saw out of the corners of his eyes and in mirrors.
 
If Elokar really was becoming a radiant why would Kaladins presence make the spen that are around him go away they haven't specifically mentioned in the books that the symbol head were bad have they? I know that Jasnah  said they were dangerous but that doesn't mean evil.

[Arondell]

(As a side note which is tangentially related: what on earth made Elhokar choose Aesudan? He married her before Gavilar's death, which seems fairly premature. She's basically as bad as he is, only she doesn't have Dalinar constantly stopping her from making decisions. I would love to have an Elhokar book, if only to see that romance(?) develop.)

 

 

 

It may not have been a choice on Elhokar's part.  High level marriages are often matters of alliances and intrigue.  We do have a strong hint in the WoR prologue that Jasnah thought she might be a problem.  In Way of Kings we have a general comment from Navani that Aesudan shut her out of current court politics.  Then of course we have the Lhan interlude which gives us more insight into the hash of things Aesudon is making in Kholinar.

 

I'm not surprised Dalinar isn't getting any straight answers about the cause of the riots.  One of the minor things I'm hoping to see in the next book is a scene with Dalinar finding out about what started them.  I wonder if stormlight will come out of his ears.

[maxal she/her]

It may not have been a choice on Elhokar's part.  High level marriages are often matters of alliances and intrigue.  We do have a strong hint in the WoR prologue that Jasnah thought she might be a problem.  In Way of Kings we have a general comment from Navani that Aesudan shut her out of current court politics.  Then of course we have the Lhan interlude which gives us more insight into the hash of things Aesudon is making in Kholinar.

 

I'm not surprised Dalinar isn't getting any straight answers about the cause of the riots.  One of the minor things I'm hoping to see in the next book is a scene with Dalinar finding out about what started them.  I wonder if stormlight will come out of his ears.

 

I posted about this earlier, but I guess it got lost in the overall mayhem It appears high ranked Alethki marry young through arranged weedings made to solidify alliances. We learn this from bits and tits following Adolin's the never ending and doomed courtships. At 22, he is considered old to still be unmarried. Dalinar is being overtly criticized for not having arranged a proper weeding before. He is considered an anomaly for letting his son have a say on the matter.

 

Based on all this, it is quite normal Elhokar would be married at 22-23 with a woman not from his choosing. Aesudan must have been the daughter of a powerful ally and thought to be a good match for political reasons only. Elhokar had to do with it, just like most people of his rank. He compensated by trying to be away from home as much as possible.

 

As for Dalinar's reaction... it will be telling. I am thinking he may struggle with keeping control over the next book. Uniting instead of dividing will prove to be a more difficult task to undertake then expected, I assume.

Edited September 17, 2014 by maxal

[Dahak he/him]

Forgot to answer this one.... Wit's interest in people has nothing to do with anything. It does not mean anything special, one way or another. Besides, we know Elhokar likes Wit, not that Wit like Elhokar...

 

Wit claims to be fond of Elhokar when talking to Dalinar.

 

 

 

 

 

Aesudan must have been the daughter of a powerful ally and thought to be a good match for political reasons only.

IIRC she's Sadeas's niece.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Dahak

[maxal she/her]

Wit claims to be fond of Elhokar when talking to Dalinar.

 

 

 

 

 

IIRC she's Sadeas's niece.

 

Oh great Do you have the quotes for these?

[Arondell]

Hmmm...The only time I can recall Hoid expressing approval of Elhokar is when he leaves in the Way of Kings.

 

 

   “I must. I hope to return. I’ll do so if I’m not killed. Probably will anyway. Apologize to your nephew for me.”

   “He won’t be happy,” Dalinar said. “He’s fond of you.”

  “Yes, it’s one of his more admirable traits,” Wit said. “Alongside that of paying me, letting me eat his expensive food, and giving me opportunity to make sport of his friends. The cosmere, unfortunately, takes precedence over free food.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 751-752). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

I'm not sure that qualifies as "fond" precisely.  Maybe by implication.  I can't recall any other scene where Wit discusses Elhokar.  At the least I don't get the impression that Wit holds Elhokar in contempt.  That could just be a matter of his position though.  The Wit isn't supposed to mock the king just the king's guests.

[maxal she/her]

Hmmm...The only time I can recall Hoid expressing approval of Elhokar is when he leaves in the Way of Kings.

 

 

I'm not sure that qualifies as "fond" precisely.  Maybe by implication.  I can't recall any other scene where Wit discusses Elhokar.  At the least I don't get the impression that Wit holds Elhokar in contempt.  That could just be a matter of his position though.  The Wit isn't supposed to mock the king just the king's guests.

 

I had the same understanding, so this pretty much confirmed what I recalled.

[Dahak he/him]

Oh great Do you have the quotes for these?

 

“I must. I hope to return. I’ll do so if I’m not killed. Probably will anyway. Apologize to your nephew for me.”

“He won’t be happy,” Dalinar said. “He’s fond of you.”

“Yes, it’s one of his more admirable traits,” Wit said. “Alongside that of paying me, letting me eat his expensive food, and giving me opportunity to make sport of his friends. The cosmere, unfortunately, takes precedence over free food. Watch yourself, Dalinar. Life becomes dangerous, and you’re at the center of it.”

 

Which is as nice about anyone as Hoid ever is. I've checked and it looks like I was confusing the Queen with Elokhar's chief scribe.

[Zea mays she/her]

“I must. I hope to return. I’ll do so if I’m not killed. Probably will anyway. Apologize to your nephew for me.”

“He won’t be happy,” Dalinar said. “He’s fond of you.”

“Yes, it’s one of his more admirable traits,” Wit said. “Alongside that of paying me, letting me eat his expensive food, and giving me opportunity to make sport of his friends. The cosmere, unfortunately, takes precedence over free food. Watch yourself, Dalinar. Life becomes dangerous, and you’re at the center of it.”

Which is as nice about anyone as Hoid ever is. I've checked and it looks like I was confusing the Queen with Elokhar's chief scribe.

To me it sounds more like "damning with faint praise". Wit mentions the above as if they were Elhokar's only good points. He says nothing about Elhokar being a wise ruler or a good person. Mebbe that's just Wit being Wit.

[maxal she/her]

To me it sounds more like "damning with faint praise". Wit mentions the above as if they were Elhokar's only good points. He says nothing about Elhokar being a wise ruler or a good person. Mebbe that's just Wit being Wit.

 

I agree. I do not read it as Wit expressing a liking in Elhokar in the same way he likes Dalinar or Renarin. I do not read it as Wit disliking Elhokar. I read it as Wit being Wit, just like you said. I believe it is inconclusive in either way. Besides, based on Brandon's recent WoB, I do not believe Wit's opinion of people matter much. He is not out there to rout out Radiants even if it may have appeared as such.

[kaellok he/him]

 Besides, based on Brandon's recent WoB, I do not believe Wit's opinion of people matter much. He is not out there to rout out Radiants even if it may have appeared as such.

I still cannot find this WoB anywhere.  Can you please provide a link, or specifically quote it?  What I was able to find from the When Worlds Collide Festival actually suggests something quite different:

 

 

Q: Does Wit specifically treat people differently when he knows they’re (going to) have a spren bond? (E.g. Renarin, Dalinar)

A: Yes, Wit treats people differently, but it is not because of present or nascent spren bonds. He has an opinion of what each person needs to hear. He isn’t always correct in this opinion, but he tries to give people what he thinks they need. In Dalinar’s case, he simply has too much respect for the man to be glib. In Renarin’s case, he believes that the boy has had more than enough being broken down, and is much more in need of being built up.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/08/brandon-sanderson-when-words-collide

Is he Radiant hunting, and can any interaction between Hoid and a character be seen as evidence that the person will be a Radiant?  Absolutely not; no one is saying that.  However, it does imply that we can look to how Hoid treats characters as an example of what he thinks they need. 

[maxal she/her]

I still cannot find this WoB anywhere.  Can you please provide a link, or specifically quote it?  What I was able to find from the When Worlds Collide Festival actually suggests something quite different:

 

Is he Radiant hunting, and can any interaction between Hoid and a character be seen as evidence that the person will be a Radiant?  Absolutely not; no one is saying that.  However, it does imply that we can look to how Hoid treats characters as an example of what he thinks they need. 

 

That's the quote I was referring too. I posted it a few posts down this thread. I agree with your last sentence. However, I fail to see how what Hoid thinks Elhokar needs is relevant to Elhokar radian potential, which is our current discussion. Besides, we have literally no clues as to what Hoid thinks of Elhokar as we have never seen a conversation between the two of them. The only time Wit mentions Elhokar is when he announces to Dalinar he is leaving. He tells Dalinar, but he has not seen fit to tell Elhokar.

 

Anyway, I think we can all agree on what Elhokar needs, with or without Hoid. However, I believe we disagree in his capacity to obtain it. I do no think he has it in him: he has been given many chances and, despite having all the tools, he failed. He was put right in front of his mistakes, he was forced to acknowledge they were mistakes and yet he refused to take actions on them, to correct them.  For me, these are the strongest evidence of his failure. Making mistakes is human, but stubbornly refusing to learn from them or to try to rectify them, is despicable. Now, if the kind of person that is not pro-active, that constantly gets angry at people he is jealous of, that refuses to correct his mistakes and that takes weeks to let a hero out of a prison becomes a Radiant, then I will admit I have completely misunderstood what Radiants are. To me, they must be greater than all, they must be role model in their respective specialty. Now, no matter how Elhokar manages to grow as a person, I do not believe he has the require character to be inspiring towards anyone.

[Sete]

He is set to become a lightweaver. His position and family will give him plenty of secrets and he lies to himself much like Shallan. His lies are about the source of his problems, and like Shallan he knows deep down who is at fault. He is primed to attract the cryptics. He might not have shown any artistic talents, but culturally be hasn't had a chance to show that kind of ability.

[kaellok he/him]

That's the quote I was referring too. I posted it a few posts down this thread. I agree with your last sentence. However, I fail to see how what Hoid thinks Elhokar needs is relevant to Elhokar radian potential, which is our current discussion. Besides, we have literally no clues as to what Hoid thinks of Elhokar as we have never seen a conversation between the two of them.

Sorry, looks like I missed your post with that before.  Hoid's thoughts on people in the story are, I think, particularly important to those of us who are at least somewhat aware of how important he is on a Cosmere level.  If Hoid had liked Sadeas, that would have significantly colored our impression of him, and in particular of Adolin's murder of him at the end of WoR.  Instead, we get a few different scenes where Hoid is particularly obnoxious towards Sadeas.  We also have at least one extended scene where Hoid is mocking the Alethi elite in general, which also helps to color our impressions of them--we see them much more poorly afterwards (this is true even for those unaware of Hoid at the time, but it is enhanced for people that pay particular attention to him.)  Your argument against Elhokar being Radiant material is entirely character-based, off of actions we have seen directly or stories we have heard from those opposed to him (which is not a bad place to be standing, at all.)  Bringing up Hoid and Hoid's interactions with Elhokar is pertinent to Elhokar's character; the WoB we have both quoted is referring to this.  Not attacking the King (verbally, of course) the way that he does with so many of the others tells us something about how Hoid views Elhokar.  Now, what that something is certainly is up for debate as he isn't very clear...

 

 

 

Anyway, I think we can all agree on what Elhokar needs, with or without Hoid. However, I believe we disagree in his capacity to obtain it. I do no think he has it in him: he has been given many chances and, despite having all the tools, he failed. He was put right in front of his mistakes, he was forced to acknowledge they were mistakes and yet he refused to take actions on them, to correct them.  For me, these are the strongest evidence of his failure. Making mistakes is human, but stubbornly refusing to learn from them or to try to rectify them, is despicable. Now, if the kind of person that is not pro-active, that constantly gets angry at people he is jealous of, that refuses to correct his mistakes and that takes weeks to let a hero out of a prison becomes a Radiant, then I will admit I have completely misunderstood what Radiants are. To me, they must be greater than all, they must be role model in their respective specialty. Now, no matter how Elhokar manages to grow as a person, I do not believe he has the require character to be inspiring towards anyone.

You keep thinking of and referring to Elhokar as a grown man, especially in other posts.  However, it's clear that while he may be the age of one, he lacks the maturity.  Why?  Because he has likely never been forced to accept the responsibility for his mistakes and choices.  When was he forced to acknowledge that he made a mistake?  Even when he imprisoned Kaladin, he was clearly acting within the full scope of the law.  Remember, Kaladin was as much in the wrong as Elhokar for that whole fiasco.  Is the law wrong and unjust?  Absolutely, but the Skybreakers wouldn't give two rats about that.  Every bad decision we've seen him make is based off of his immaturity.  If he's finally forced to grow up (which I strongly think we'll see in Book 3) then that could all slide away.  Nothing that we've seen him do is deliberately mean, cruel, despicable, etc. which is why there is absolutely the potential for him to become a Radiant still.  And I disagree absolutely with you saying Elhokar has been forced to see and acknowledge his mistakes.  I've seen the result of him being bullied by Dalinar until Elhokar gives in, but that's it--and that makes for a piss-poor learning experience.

 

Honestly, though, because we have seen so little of Elhokar on screen I have to give more weight to the opinion of other characters regarding who he is as a person.  Dalinar may not see his faults, but does see his strengths; Navani has few illusions about him; Kaladin hates him at first, and changes his mind later.  Combine the good opinion of those (and others), along with seeing the spren previously, and I definitely believe that he has the potential to become a Radiant.  It could be that that's no longer a possibility at all, since he's not seeing the spren anymore.  As far as his ability to inspire people goes, he's already done far more than you give him credit for.  He kept a nation together when it was on the brink of disintegrating.  Six years later, he still has the devotion and unquestioned loyalty of the two strongest highprinces.  Szeth has inspired nothing but fear, and seems set to continue his reign of terror; even should he become a Radiant, he does not seem likely to inspire people out of loyalty or honor, or spur them on to greater and better things.  And yet the consensus is that he is still Radiant-material.  This means that not all the Radiant Orders are the same, and the expectations for each cannot be the same either.

 

And don't forget that the common people didn't necessarily always look upon Radiants with praise and glad tidings; Dustbringers were considered equally bad as Voidbringers, after all.  And it's more than possible for a truly despicable and evil person to be honorable; since Radiants reflect attributes of Honor, there is no reason to believe that they will all be 'good' as we commonly think of it (even though all will likely be at least good-ish, since the First Ideal is a fair counter to that).

 

tl;dr: Character is important, but we only know what kind of character is important for a few of the Radian Orders.  Because Elhokar has seen spren before, something about him had attracted them even if we don't know what.  This means he could become a Radiant in the future, but almost definitely not tomorrow, since he has a lot of growing up still to do.

[maxal she/her]

Sorry, looks like I missed your post with that before.  Hoid's thoughts on people in the story are, I think, particularly important to those of us who are at least somewhat aware of how important he is on a Cosmere level.  If Hoid had liked Sadeas, that would have significantly colored our impression of him, and in particular of Adolin's murder of him at the end of WoR.  Instead, we get a few different scenes where Hoid is particularly obnoxious towards Sadeas.  We also have at least one extended scene where Hoid is mocking the Alethi elite in general, which also helps to color our impressions of them--we see them much more poorly afterwards (this is true even for those unaware of Hoid at the time, but it is enhanced for people that pay particular attention to him.)  Your argument against Elhokar being Radiant material is entirely character-based, off of actions we have seen directly or stories we have heard from those opposed to him (which is not a bad place to be standing, at all.)  Bringing up Hoid and Hoid's interactions with Elhokar is pertinent to Elhokar's character; the WoB we have both quoted is referring to this.  Not attacking the King (verbally, of course) the way that he does with so many of the others tells us something about how Hoid views Elhokar.  Now, what that something is certainly is up for debate as he isn't very clear...

 

 

 

 

It is my understanding we have different views on Hoid's behavior towards Elhokar. You state the fact he does not openly criticizes the king is indication enough he feels positive about him. I disagree. When Hoid is using the persona of Wit, he is working for the king and his main mission is to insult the king's people. It is not his job to insult the king and I sincerely doubt any past Wit would have done the same. It is thus normal, in my understanding of what the Wit's position implies, that he does appear nice to the king. I do not see it as an indication of how Hoid feels about Elhokar as is persona of Wit demands him to be respectful towards him. See what I mean? I keep re-reading myself, but it does not sound clear to me.... I hope you can understand what I am trying to say...

 

I also tend to interpret this specific WoB as not to put too much faith in what Hoid does or say about specific characters. I may be wrong in my interpretation and I will admit to as much, but as long as I do not get proof of it, I will tend to dismiss Hoid's behavior towards any specific character as relevant.

 

 

You keep thinking of and referring to Elhokar as a grown man, especially in other posts.  However, it's clear that while he may be the age of one, he lacks the maturity.  Why?  Because he has likely never been forced to accept the responsibility for his mistakes and choices.  When was he forced to acknowledge that he made a mistake?  Even when he imprisoned Kaladin, he was clearly acting within the full scope of the law.  Remember, Kaladin was as much in the wrong as Elhokar for that whole fiasco.  Is the law wrong and unjust?  Absolutely, but the Skybreakers wouldn't give two rats about that.  Every bad decision we've seen him make is based off of his immaturity.  If he's finally forced to grow up (which I strongly think we'll see in Book 3) then that could all slide away.  Nothing that we've seen him do is deliberately mean, cruel, despicable, etc. which is why there is absolutely the potential for him to become a Radiant still.  And I disagree absolutely with you saying Elhokar has been forced to see and acknowledge his mistakes.  I've seen the result of him being bullied by Dalinar until Elhokar gives in, but that's it--and that makes for a piss-poor learning experience.

 

You keep thinking Elhokar had no opportunity in the past 6 years to acknowledge his failures. I tend to disagree. He clearly has had the opportunity to consider the wisdom of acting on impulses, it should have, at the very least, given him the drive to think some more before rendering a judgement. Even Navani does not think they can trust the king's words: she said so herself when she warned Adolin about the duel. I thus interpret that despite knowing he is bad at being king, Elhokar does not see fit to, at the very least, think on how to act. He still thinks he is entitled to act on impulses without any further thoughts. He has had 6 YEARS to think this through and he has not come up with a desire to do better? To at least try?

 

The Kaladin experience is a messy one, I'll agree, but given the circumstances shouldn't the king be more inclined to treat Kaladin positively considering he saved his COUSINS. Not strangers, but family. Or is it that Elhokar does not care about Dalinar's sons? If that is the case, then I clearly do not see what a man that does not care about his family is doing being a Radiant.

 

 

Honestly, though, because we have seen so little of Elhokar on screen I have to give more weight to the opinion of other characters regarding who he is as a person.  Dalinar may not see his faults, but does see his strengths; Navani has few illusions about him; Kaladin hates him at first, and changes his mind later.  Combine the good opinion of those (and others), along with seeing the spren previously, and I definitely believe that he has the potential to become a Radiant.  It could be that that's no longer a possibility at all, since he's not seeing the spren anymore.  As far as his ability to inspire people goes, he's already done far more than you give him credit for.  He kept a nation together when it was on the brink of disintegrating.  Six years later, he still has the devotion and unquestioned loyalty of the two strongest highprinces.  Szeth has inspired nothing but fear, and seems set to continue his reign of terror; even should he become a Radiant, he does not seem likely to inspire people out of loyalty or honor, or spur them on to greater and better things.  And yet the consensus is that he is still Radiant-material.  This means that not all the Radiant Orders are the same, and the expectations for each cannot be the same either.

 

I do not see any potential for Elhokar. I am sorry. I just don't. I see potential in Adolin, but not him. He has never shown any indication he could even remotely meet the requirement for any orders. The fact he saw sprens is not solid proof to me. They could have been anything and their reasons to be close to him could have been different than Radianhood. He is, after all, the king of a powerful nation, that in itself is sufficient to justify any attention he may get.

 

As for him holding the nation for 6 years, I disagree it is caused by any of his qualities. Following Galivar's death, the Vengeance's Pact was established. As a result, Alethki went to war with the Parshendi, as a whole, which diminishes the chances of betrayal to begin with. Now, on the Shattered Plains, all of the Highprinces got richer. All this caused by the Vengeance's Pact... Why would they over through Elhokar? He is given them reasons to raged war at low cost and collect gems. They have no reasons, no advantages. The fact Elhokar remained in position is not caused by any doing from his part, but by circumstances only. Even Dalinar admits Elhokar had little authority on his people...

 

 

 

tl;dr: Character is important, but we only know what kind of character is important for a few of the Radian Orders.  Because Elhokar has seen spren before, something about him had attracted them even if we don't know what.  This means he could become a Radiant in the future, but almost definitely not tomorrow, since he has a lot of growing up still to do.

And don't forget that the common people didn't necessarily always look upon Radiants with praise and glad tidings; Dustbringers were considered equally bad as Voidbringers, after all.  And it's more than possible for a truly despicable and evil person to be honorable; since Radiants reflect attributes of Honor, there is no reason to believe that they will all be 'good' as we commonly think of it (even though all will likely be at least good-ish, since the First Ideal is a fair counter to that).

 

It is my belief Dustbringers did what they believed was right. They acted on intuition and no one could know where they would strike, which would emphasizes the feeling of fear they inspired in people. However, I do believe they were right in what they do, the same way I believe Adolin was right in murdering Sadeas. Other people may see it differently though. Besides, I do believe brave Dustbringers may have had their followers, their own crowd of people that admired them.

 

Nobody looks up to Elhokar for nothing. He is not inspiring in any way, he never acts in a honorable or even a right way. In fact, he is quite the opposite of what a Radiant has to be.

[kaellok he/him]

It is my understanding we have different views on Hoid's behavior towards Elhokar. You state the fact he does not openly criticizes the king is indication enough he feels positive about him. I disagree. 

No.  I'm saying that with a lack of negativity from Hoid, combined with lots of positive from other characters, is a strong point in favor of his potential.  We do, certainly, seem to have a differing viewpoint on Hoid, as I feel the WoB we're both relating to says something quite different than your interpretation.

 

 

You keep thinking Elhokar had no opportunity in the past 6 years to acknowledge his failures. I tend to disagree. He clearly has had the opportunity to consider the wisdom of acting on impulses, it should have, at the very least, given him the drive to think some more before rendering a judgement. Even Navani does not think they can trust the king's words: she said so herself when she warned Adolin about the duel. I thus interpret that despite knowing he is bad at being king, Elhokar does not see fit to, at the very least, think on how to act. He still thinks he is entitled to act on impulses without any further thoughts. He has had 6 YEARS to think this through and he has not come up with a desire to do better? To at least try?

There are really only three general 'failures' that Elhokar demonstrates on-screen.  One, being an immature, drunken lout--like the entirety of the Alethi elite, save the Kholinars.  Two, the imprisoning of Moash's parents leading to their deaths  (Remember that the lack of punishment for Roshone is entirely Dalinar's doing as I recall).  Three, the lawful (if unjust) imprisoning of Kaladin.  We actually have greater examples of his wife's abuses of power than his own--after all, she's hosting lavish balls and wasting food when the people are starving.  What failures, exactly, does he need to be working so hard at fixing?  

 

 

 

The Kaladin experience is a messy one, I'll agree, but given the circumstances shouldn't the king be more inclined to treat Kaladin positively considering he saved his COUSINS. Not strangers, but family. Or is it that Elhokar does not care about Dalinar's sons? If that is the case, then I clearly do not see what a man that does not care about his family is doing being a Radiant.

A Skybreaker would certainly, 100% disagree with you--the Law applies to everyone, equally, period.  Special exceptions for people that you happen to like doesn't seem to be very Radiant-like.  Hell, half of Kaladin's problems in WoR are because he likes Moash, and Moash wants to commit murder, so Kaladin refuses to do anything about it.  

 

 

 

I do not see any potential for Elhokar. I am sorry. I just don't. I see potential in Adolin, but not him. He has never shown any indication he could even remotely meet the requirement for any orders. The fact he saw sprens is not solid proof to me. They could have been anything and their reasons to be close to him could have been different than Radianhood. He is, after all, the king of a powerful nation, that in itself is sufficient to justify any attention he may get.

That's fine--other characters, in-book, that have dealings with Elhokar on a daily basis do.  Some spren did, as well.  In order for there to be a bond, you have to attract a spren; you can only attract a spren by acting in ways that interest them.  You can't attract creative spren (creation spren? I forget now) by riding horses, and you don't attract painspren by drawing flowers.  You would attract an Honorspren by wanting to protect those who cannot protect themselves, but you would push them away by actively planning to murder an innocent.  Something that Elhokar did attracted spren's notice.  We can debate what it was, or why, but that fact will remain.

 

Dalinar is the one who argues that Elhokar held their people together as a nation.  Whether he has authority over them that is respected is a completely separate matter.

 

 

It is my belief Dustbringers did what they believed was right. They acted on intuition and no one could know where they would strike, which would emphasizes the feeling of fear they inspired in people. However, I do believe they were right in what they do, the same way I believe Adolin was right in murdering Sadeas. Other people may see it differently though. Besides, I do believe brave Dustbringers may have had their followers, their own crowd of people that admired them.

 

 

Nobody looks up to Elhokar for nothing. He is not inspiring in any way, he never acts in a honorable or even a right way. In fact, he is quite the opposite of what a Radiant has to be.

But the Dustbringers were feared; feared in the much the same way that the armies of the enemy bent on the utter annihilation of the planet were feared.  That's very telling.  Radiants don't have to be inspiring.  Radiants don't have to be good.  They don't have to inspire hope and good will and happy fuzzy thoughts in others.  Some of them do; some of them do so very well.  The fact that Elhokar is definitely not currently fit to be on of the Orders we're aware of means exactly nothing.  The huge lack of screen-time with Elhokar means that we haven't seen much of him at all, which is why I rely on the opinions of characters in the books.  Is he petty?  Sure.  Drunk?  Yup.  Does he deliberately do evil or bad things without regard of the consequences?  No, not even a little bit.  He's just an immature brat that needs to grow up, but never did before because bad parents didn't force him to do so.

 

Even the little that we've seen of him shows that he is more than capable of this change, and getting him around people that don't give a fig about his rank will do him tremendous good.  Coincidentally, that's just where he happens to be right now--in the loving company of Lopen's family.  Szeth, on the other hand, knowingly did evil just because it was easier.  He broke laws in order to keep to tradition, and destabilized much of the world in doing so.  Yet, you seem okay with him being a Radiant but not Elhokar.  This...this is the biggest reason why I keep coming back to the discussion.  In every, single, dimension possible, Elhokar has the superior moral fiber to Szeth, and demonstrates better judgment.  

 

Regardless, it's always nice having discussions with you, because you tend to feel strongly, back up your points with evidence, and I've seen you change your opinion a few times when convinced that you were wrong.  I don't think it's going to happen this time, though, which is fine 

[maxal she/her]

No.  I'm saying that with a lack of negativity from Hoid, combined with lots of positive from other characters, is a strong point in favor of his potential.  We do, certainly, seem to have a differing viewpoint on Hoid, as I feel the WoB we're both relating to says something quite different than your interpretation.

 

Yeah. I notice we don't seem to agree on this specific WoB's signification. I think our differences lay in the fact I do not consider Hoid's lack of negativity as a positive sign: I see it as irrelevant as Hoid is not in a position to criticize the king the one time he mentions him in a conversation. As for positive comments from other characters, do you have quotes for this? For the only character I recall talking of Elhokar in a favorable way is Dalinar. However, we do know Dalinar is not being fair when judging Elhokar nor is he being objective. He tends to see only virtues in him and forgive him all of his misgivings... I have always felt Dalinar feels so guilty about Galivar's death he has over compensated in blind love for Elhokar. I therefore tend to not take his positive review of Elhokar as facts. I tend to believe Navani's critics of her own son is more accurate. She clearly loves him, but she also clearly does not think much of him as a king.

 

 

There are really only three general 'failures' that Elhokar demonstrates on-screen.  One, being an immature, drunken lout--like the entirety of the Alethi elite, save the Kholinars.  Two, the imprisoning of Moash's parents leading to their deaths  (Remember that the lack of punishment for Roshone is entirely Dalinar's doing as I recall).  Three, the lawful (if unjust) imprisoning of Kaladin.  We actually have greater examples of his wife's abuses of power than his own--after all, she's hosting lavish balls and wasting food when the people are starving.  What failures, exactly, does he need to be working so hard at fixing?  

 

He is temperamental. He leads judgement based on impulsivity and anger.

 

During the chasmfield hunt, he acted like a complete fool as he was trying to prove to everyone how worthy he was: turned out he got 50 men killed because of is pettiness. I disagree all the Alethki elite are drunken louts... we have met many that weren't and most highprinces seemed quite in control of themselves.

 

The Roshone incident... Elhokar pleaded to Dalinar that he should be allowed to walk free. Daliner being Dalinar thought pity and compassion was a good think and he let Elhokar have his way as he always do. I agree the final decision appears to have been Dalinar's. However, if Elhokar had not asked for leniency, Roshone would not have gotten it from Dalinar. I cannot therefore solely blame Dalinar: he is guilty of blinding his eyes when it comes to his nephew, but he is not guilty of coming with the idea.

 

During the 4 on 1 duel, he acted, again, impulsively. Adolin just went through this horrible duel where he nearly got killed only so he could get a chance to fight (and kill) Sadeas. Elhokar knew about the plan: he even liked it. Navani's warns Adolin her son could change his idea as he is too temperamental and unpredictable. How is it his mother thinks so readily he may sabotage THE plan the whole family has come up with to deal with Sadeas? It must be because Elhokar cannot be trusted, he must be because he is so prone to pettiness and anger you just can't trust him... This is, by far, one of the worst reviews we have had and it comes from the one person who must know him best: his mother. Turns out she was right. He did sabotaged Adolin's efforts. And why? Because Kal spoke out of place? He completely forgot about the most important thing at hand to deal with the least important one, in the worst possible way. Dalinar tried to talk him out of it: he explained to him quite clearly why he should show leniency and yet Elhokar is not able to let go... What does that tell about the man?

 

He needs to work on not rendering judgements when angry, he needs to work on THINKING before saying anything, he needs to work on listening to advice when given instead of keeping him enthralled in his anger, he needs to KEEP his word instead of letting other events distract him from more important matters, he needs to work on all of these things to become a better person and as long as he doesn't, I will feel he is not deserving to be a Radiant.

 

A Skybreaker would certainly, 100% disagree with you--the Law applies to everyone, equally, period.  Special exceptions for people that you happen to like doesn't seem to be very Radiant-like.  Hell, half of Kaladin's problems in WoR are because he likes Moash, and Moash wants to commit murder, so Kaladin refuses to do anything about it. 

 

Honestly, I am unsure what the law says about Kaladin, so I will not comment on it. I am not saying Kaladin is perfect, but he is striving to protect people which is his first attribute. He makes mistake, Moash was one, but he corrected it. Elhokar, on the other hand, does not work hard to enforce any attribute and he yet have to raise one finger to correct any of his mistakes. That is the main reason I cannot see him as a Radiant: he is not exhibiting any attributes, he is not remarkable in anything. Radiants all have this one thing in common: they live and breath by their first attribute, even in their worst moments and all are remarkable in at least one area.

 

I have not seen this in Elhokar and there is nothing from any character perspective we have of him that leads me to believe it may be the case.

 

 

 

Dalinar is the one who argues that Elhokar held their people together as a nation.  Whether he has authority over them that is respected is a completely separate matter.

 

Can we honestly take Dalinar's opinion for granted when it comes to Elhokar? We know he is biased, we know he has a tendency to blind his eyes towards his misgivings and he has shown himself prone to positively enhance all of his actions, even if it was undeserving... His little talk to Navani where he praises Elhokar so much is telling: Navani clearly does not agree and as his mother, I would think she must know best.

 

 

That's fine--other characters, in-book, that have dealings with Elhokar on a daily basis do.  Some spren did, as well.  In order for there to be a bond, you have to attract a spren; you can only attract a spren by acting in ways that interest them.  You can't attract creative spren (creation spren? I forget now) by riding horses, and you don't attract painspren by drawing flowers.  You would attract an Honorspren by wanting to protect those who cannot protect themselves, but you would push them away by actively planning to murder an innocent.  Something that Elhokar did attracted spren's notice.  We can debate what it was, or why, but that fact will remain.

 

We are not sure what he is seeing! We cannot conclude those sprens are there to bond him! There could other reasons for sprens to show interest in Elhokar and given he is the weak king of a powerful nation, I would think the desire to take him over must be strong by enemy factions. His position is sufficient enough to warranty attention, I however doubt those sprens are around him for good reasons. I do believe they are either there to study him and learn about him as again, he is a king, or they are up to no good and believe they can easily corrupt him.

 

As I said, there is nothing in Elhokar behavior that suggests Radiants. Nothing. Based on this, I am forced to conclude whatever he is seeing is not order related.

 

 

 

But the Dustbringers were feared; feared in the much the same way that the armies of the enemy bent on the utter annihilation of the planet were feared.  That's very telling.  Radiants don't have to be inspiring.  Radiants don't have to be good.  They don't have to inspire hope and good will and happy fuzzy thoughts in others.  Some of them do; some of them do so very well.  The fact that Elhokar is definitely not currently fit to be on of the Orders we're aware of means exactly nothing.  The huge lack of screen-time with Elhokar means that we haven't seen much of him at all, which is why I rely on the opinions of characters in the books.  Is he petty?  Sure.  Drunk?  Yup.  Does he deliberately do evil or bad things without regard of the consequences?  No, not even a little bit.  He's just an immature brat that needs to grow up, but never did before because bad parents didn't force him to do so.

 

Truth is, we don't know a lot about the Dustbringers and since they will most likely never get a flashback book: we are bond to find little. Sadly Yeah, they were feared, but we are unsure as to why it was the case. I believe their specific powers must have made them fierce on the battlefield, which scared people away. We know their name and their chosen color (red) have caused people to unjustly associated them to the Voidbringers. However, I would not go as far as saying nobody admired them. They were warriors and no doubt they won many battles, no doubt they saved many lifes: those people would have been great full. I also believe they were the ones to do the right thing, at all costs, even if it cost them and there must people who admired this, who found their courage inspiring. They do have "brave" as their first attribute, some of them must have come out as true heroes. I agree this is not the vision the writer of Words of Radiance chose to express, but I sincerely think we are missing quite a few pieces.

 

I believe Radiants, as a whole, must have been inspiring people and yeah, some more than others, but I do believe all these people came from different order. One generation may venerates a great Windrunner and the one after a great Lightweaver and the next one, perhaps a great Dustbringer. We honestly do not know, but I keep thinking being made a Radiant imply a greater than life responsibility and that any chosen one must have this capacity to become this inspiring person within their specific attributes/talent.

 

 

Even the little that we've seen of him shows that he is more than capable of this change, and getting him around people that don't give a fig about his rank will do him tremendous good.  Coincidentally, that's just where he happens to be right now--in the loving company of Lopen's family.  Szeth, on the other hand, knowingly did evil just because it was easier.  He broke laws in order to keep to tradition, and destabilized much of the world in doing so.  Yet, you seem okay with him being a Radiant but not Elhokar.  This...this is the biggest reason why I keep coming back to the discussion.  In every, single, dimension possible, Elhokar has the superior moral fiber to Szeth, and demonstrates better judgment.  

 

Regardless, it's always nice having discussions with you, because you tend to feel strongly, back up your points with evidence, and I've seen you change your opinion a few times when convinced that you were wrong.  I don't think it's going to happen this time, though, which is fine 

 

I have changed my opinion of Szeth. I used to think as you do, so I will certainly no fault you in this. I am not entirely sure he is 100% Radiant material. However, he does exhibit the one thing that is missing to Elhokar: he lives and breaths by a first attribute, justice. All his actions are tainted by his desire to be just in the same way all of Kaladin's actions are tainted by his desire to protect. The Moash incident was in fact Kaladin trying to protect Moash. If I look at all Radiants attributes, there are none I can readily associate to Elhokar.

 

I like talking with you as well    I feel we can disagree and yet discuss our respective opinions without getting angry at each other. This is refreshing as not all of these discussions end the same way.  I do take all other arguments in hand and I do think some more on my side and yeah I have changed my mind on a few things...   I think you may have made me change my mind on several things... However, I don't think I'll readily change my mind on Elhokar... Not now anyway, but we never know. Nothing is ever impossible and we have a saying here: "Only fools never change their minds".

[flinn]

 Maxal, I think you took a real disliking to Elhokar and because you dislike him you see a lot of his actions even worse than intended. He seems to be a really confused young man who is following greatness and, so far, is not great himself. I believe he is experiencing what a lot of other sons of great men dealt with throughout history. 

 No doubt he has been seeing spren and it may have been for the past 6 years. You might be paranoid as well if you were seeing things out of the corner of your eyes with no explanation for them. Either something is there, or he is crazy. Which do you think he chooses? Oh, and he is right, there really is something there, just not assassins. 

 Also, you speak of talk to his council for help. He has been. Unfortunately, who is his council? High Lords that are doing everything they can to fight for power with each other. Any advice he gets is not advice at all but positioning for power. He is not a good king. 

 

 Look at Renarin* for instance. He hasn't handled his interaction with spren well at all. If Renarin was the king while going through what he has been, how well do you think he would do?

Edited September 28, 2014 by flinn

[sun tzaro]

 

 Szeth, on the other hand, knowingly did evil just because it was easier.  He broke laws in order to keep to tradition, and destabilized much of the world in doing so.  Yet, you seem okay with him being a Radiant but not Elhokar.  This...this is the biggest reason why I keep coming back to the discussion.  In every, single, dimension possible, Elhokar has the superior moral fiber to Szeth, and demonstrates better judgment.  

 

Urghhh, I strongly disagree with this.  I don't think that Szeth made the easy choices. In fact, I feel that we've been shown the exact opposite in the books - Szeth hates himself for what he has done, and at the end of WoR he's pretty much on the brink of insanity. As Szeth himself says in his conversation with Nalan, he has destroyed himself.

 

Yet Szeth followed the Shinovar tradition - Shinovar law - because that's what he believed was the right and honorable thing to do.

 

If we are defining morals as what a person believes is right (I was introduced to this definition by moogle, over here http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/17226-theory-to-explain-darknesss-actions/page-3), then Szeth's moral fiber probably surpasses that of anyone who we've seen so far. 

 

 

 

As for Maxal, I think you are operating under two assumptions that I believe are incorrect.

 

1. A person must "deserve" to be a KR to become one.

 

Now, I can see how you arrived at this conclusion. Kaladin's past deeds certainly were worthy of a Windrunner, as can be said of Szeth and the Skybreakers. We don't know much about the Elsecallers, but Jasnah is accomplished enough to assume that she probably deserved the title too.

 

But what about Shallan and Lift?  

 

Shallan got her sketchbook after she had killed her mother with Pattern. She was just a child when Pattern bonded with her - she had accomplished virtually nothing. And yet now, I'm sure we all agree that she has done a pretty solid job as a Lightweaver. 

 

Lift was a petty thief. A likeable one, yes, but deserving of becoming an Edgedancer? No. In fact, we know that Lift only became a KR because Wyndle was told to choose her because of the abilities Lift gained after visiting the Nightwatcher. Hardly a decision based on Lift's own personal merit.

 

2. KRs must be inspirational and honorable. 

 

I think that what Syl believes has impacted your conception of the KRs as a whole a little too strongly.

 

Sure, the Windrunners are honorable. The Bondsmiths are inspirational. But the rest of the orders? You seem to see the KRs as a force of good, who exist for the primary purpose of leading men into action, but I don't think that's the case. Sure, you could argue that the KRs all operate according to the first Oath - but we've only seen a Windrunner's interpretation of the first Oath. What about all of the other orders?

 

 

 

"I saved him," Lift said. "I did something good, didn't I?"

"Goodness is irrelevant," Darkness said. His shardblade dropped into his fingers.

 

The original KRs were led by the Heralds, and this Herald doesn't even believe in goodness. 

 

And the Spren, from which the KR's power is derived? 

 

The Stormfather resents humans. Pattern doesn't seem too concerned with the ideals of honor. We don't know much about Ivory, but his first encounter with Jasnah certainly didn't involve him protesting the assassination she was planning. 

 

I don't think the KRs don't exist to be good, or even honorable. They exist to fight the Voidbringers, and each fills a different niche. 

 

 

As a side comment, I think you're being a little too harsh on Elkohar. It took Dalinar over 40 years to develop a conscience. I think Elkohar still deserves a little more time. 

 

We also wouldn't have seen Elkohar break down in front of Kaladin if that wasn't going to relevant to Elkohar's character development at a later point. I think Elkohar will change - although I do hope that surgebinding isn't necessarily involved, because, like many, I think we already have more than enough Kholin Radiants. 

Edited October 4, 2014 by sun tzaro

[maxal she/her]

As for Maxal, I think you are operating under two assumptions that I believe are incorrect.

 

1. A person must "deserve" to be a KR to become one.

 

Now, I can see how you arrived at this conclusion. Kaladin's past deeds certainly were worthy of a Windrunner, as can be said of Szeth and the Skybreakers. We don't know much about the Elsecallers, but Jasnah is accomplished enough to assume that she probably deserved the title too.

 

But what about Shallan and Lift?  

 

Shallan got her sketchbook after she had killed her mother with Pattern. She was just a child when Pattern bonded with her - she had accomplished virtually nothing. And yet now, I'm sure we all agree that she has done a pretty solid job as a Lightweaver. 

 

Lift was a petty thief. A likeable one, yes, but deserving of becoming an Edgedancer? No. In fact, we know that Lift only became a KR because Wyndle was told to choose her because of the abilities Lift gained after visiting the Nightwatcher. Hardly a decision based on Lift's own personal merit.

 

I do think Radiants must be worthy of their respective orders and as each orders are looking for different attributes, they end up complementing themselves. Now this worthiness is different for each knights.

 

You bring up Shallan and you make a good point. I have however a different view on the matter. Cryptics seem to be after people of great artistic talent able to use their art to create "lies", which I interpret as illusion. Lightweaver's first attribute is "creative". Young Shallan already was a talented artist. The sketchbook she received was hardly her first... Helaran pointed out he wanted her to resume drawing, implying she has been drawing before, with enough talent for Helaran to claim she had the potential to be really good at it. it is safe to assume little Shallan expressed above the average artistic skills and used it to aptly create perfect lies, probably an image of a happy family.... It is not beyond a child of 10 to do this.

 

Lift, I do agree, is a different matter. Edgedancers are frivolous and as a result I believe their sprens are... frivolous. Windle was clearly more interested in the profession his knight would be occupying as opposed to its persona, which is what matters most. it may be why his "mother" forced him to bind Lift. It could be the "mother" always chose the future knight for Edgedancers sprens as it could be they are poor at choosing by themselves. As for Lift herself, we do not know much about her, but she has shown great loving when she risked her life to safe the life of a boy she hardly knew. It must be something in her that prompt the Nightwatcher to chose her. We don't know enough, but I wouldn't claim Lift is undeserving as saving Gwak proved she was.

 

What bothers me with Elhokar is the fact he is not exhibiting any of the said attribute in an active manner... All the Radiants we know have one thing in common: their attributes literally burst out of them. Kaladin protects, Shallan draws, Dalinar is pious beyond any common sense, etc. I see Adolin being the same as them, but Elhokar? He just does not fit the mold.

 

2. KRs must be inspirational and honorable. 

 

I think that what Syl believes has impacted your conception of the KRs as a whole a little too strongly.

 

Sure, the Windrunners are honorable. The Bondsmiths are inspirational. But the rest of the orders? You seem to see the KRs as a force of good, who exist for the primary purpose of leading men into action, but I don't think that's the case. Sure, you could argue that the KRs all operate according to the first Oath - but we've only seen a Windrunner's interpretation of the first Oath. What about all of the other orders?

 

 

They must be inspirational, not necessarily honorable. You can be inspirational without being all too honorable. Jasnah is not honorable, but she can inspire people by her wisdom and her arguments. Shallan does not care about honor, but her skills are an inspiration to those close to her. Kaladin and Dalinar are honorable, true, but I do not see it as a mandatory condition to be a knight, but you need to have a strong enough persona to bring people together around you. I see all the orders managing as much, in their own respective way.

 

Elhokar is not inspirational. Nobody looks up to him and wants to emulate him. He makes a poor impression on anyone who meets him. Give him surges and he'll still be the same.

 

 

The original KRs were led by the Heralds, and this Herald doesn't even believe in goodness. 

 

And the Spren, from which the KR's power is derived? 

 

The Stormfather resents humans. Pattern doesn't seem too concerned with the ideals of honor. We don't know much about Ivory, but his first encounter with Jasnah certainly didn't involve him protesting the assassination she was planning. 

 

I don't think the KRs don't exist to be good, or even honorable. They exist to fight the Voidbringers, and each fills a different niche. 

 

 

As a side comment, I think you're being a little too harsh on Elkohar. It took Dalinar over 40 years to develop a conscience. I think Elkohar still deserves a little more time. 

 

We also wouldn't have seen Elkohar break down in front of Kaladin if that wasn't going to relevant to Elkohar's character development at a later point. I think Elkohar will change - although I do hope that surgebinding isn't necessarily involved, because, like many, I think we already have more than enough Kholin Radiants. 

 

I don't think we should take Nalan's reaction as an indication... Case can be made the man has gotten insane. So I do not put much weight to this particular quote.

 

As I said, not all orders are honorable, but they certainly all are inspirational, in their own personal way. Lightweavers have little honor in them, so it is logical they wouldn't care much about it. Bondsmith and Skybreakers have a lot of honor, so they care a lot about it.

 

I think the task of the Radiants was to fight the Voidbringers and to inspire humanity to fight as a group, to better themselves, to acheive something greater then their own person.

 

Could Elhokar change in the next 10 to 40 years to truly become Radiant worthy? Yes, of course. Everyone deserves the chance to change. However, I think you are missing the main point of my argumentation... I never said Elhokar could never become this person, I am saying he is NOT this person, right now which is why I just cannot fathom why an order related spren would show any interest in him as he is NOW. Dalinar would have NEVER attracted a spren 10 years ago. He had to change to mirror the Bondsmiths ideals to do so, the same way Elhokar will have to change to mirror one of the order's ideals to attract a spren. It has not happened yet. Elhokar has not changed yet. The sprens he is seeing must thus be something else then Radiant related.