Why can Zahel see Syl but Azure cannot?

[Soulcaster05]

Spoiler

Kaladin halted a respectful distance away. Zahel didn’t look at him, but the strange ardent always seemed to know when someone was approaching. He had a surreal awareness of his surroundings. Syl took off toward him, and Kaladin carefully watched Zahel’s reaction. He can see her, Kaladin decided as Zahel carefully hung another scarf. He arranged himself so he could watch Syl from the corner of his eye. Other than Rock and Cord, Kaladin had never met a person who could see invisible spren. Did Zahel have Horneater blood? The ability was rare even among Rock’s kind—though he had said that occasionally a distant Horneater relative was born with it.

The above excerpt from Rhythm of War where Kaladin goes to Zahel for advice shows that Zahel is able to see Syl. Earlier in Oathbringer when Kaladin is in Azure's Wall Guard and Syl flits about him, Azure doesn't seem to notice the honorspren (and I am assuming she knows what they look like because she's been to Shadesmar before) flitting about close to Kaladin. Why is that?

 

So does Zahel's ability to see Syl have more to do with the fact that he's Returned? How so?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Pretty sure he can't "see" her as much as detect her Investiture presence. I think he says as much either there or elsewhere

Which would be down to his level of investiture and his experience using it while Azure doesn't have the same level of either not having a divine breath or centuries of experience more

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Soulcaster05 said:

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Kaladin halted a respectful distance away. Zahel didn’t look at him, but the strange ardent always seemed to know when someone was approaching. He had a surreal awareness of his surroundings. Syl took off toward him, and Kaladin carefully watched Zahel’s reaction. He can see her, Kaladin decided as Zahel carefully hung another scarf. He arranged himself so he could watch Syl from the corner of his eye. Other than Rock and Cord, Kaladin had never met a person who could see invisible spren. Did Zahel have Horneater blood? The ability was rare even among Rock’s kind—though he had said that occasionally a distant Horneater relative was born with it.

The above excerpt from Rhythm of War where Kaladin goes to Zahel for advice shows that Zahel is able to see Syl. Earlier in Oathbringer when Kaladin is in Azure's Wall Guard and Syl flits about him, Azure doesn't seem to notice the honorspren (and I am assuming she knows what they look like because she's been to Shadesmar before) flitting about close to Kaladin. Why is that?

 

So does Zahel's ability to see Syl have more to do with the fact that he's Returned? How so?

Zahel might hold more Breaths thus his Lifesense is stronger and he can sense Syl unlike Azure. But I doubt this would apply with something as invested as a spren, both should be able to sense Syl if they have enough Breaths to Awaken. Zahel suppresses his Divine Breath so he doesn't have access to Divine Breath granted 4th Heightening and perfect Lifesense.

Zahel might be simply paranoiac and that's why he reacts to Syl, while Azure is able to sense her but isn't concerned. It may be that Azure put her Breaths into clothes, like her cape, to be always ready to fight or to hide her invested presence from Fused.

Or Azure sensed her and that made her worry - she did dance around Kaladin when he confronted her in ch 78 and she thought Kaladin was chasing after her: 

Quote

She leaned forward. “Tell me honestly. Did you come here chasing me?”

She wasn't surprised when Kaladin revealed himself as Knight Radiant, she smiled, ch 79:

Quote

“I’m here,” Kaladin said, resting the Sylblade on his shoulder, “on orders from King Elhokar and the Blackthorn. It’s my job to save Kholinar. And it’s time you started talking to me.”
She smiled at him. “Come with me.”

She clearly knew Kaladin is hiding something and this might be because she sensed a very invested being sticking always close to him. Moreover she had bigger worries on her head - the army of Voidbringers outside of city walls. Whatever was the thing floating around Kaladin, wasn't that big of a problem compared to keeping the city from collapsing.

Overall we don't know why but there are multiple possible explanations.

[Duxredux he/him]

All of the previous stated concepts make an impact, but I think the biggest factor is the environmental difference between Zahel and Azure's circumstances. When Kaladin went to talk to Zahel the nondescript ardent just doing his job, he was isolated and doing laundry, so presumably there was less interference for his Lifesense to detect something as subtle as Syl. No people around, only Kaladin and Syl watching him. In contrast, Azure was only around Syl in overcrowded Kholinar patrolled by Secretspren, ignoring Shadesmar as Syl was corporeal there. There's a decent chance that her Lifesense was overloaded with interference caused by a city full of people watching her as the symbol of their defense and resistance against the Fused. Lifesense allows you to feel someone watching you, particularly if they are Invested - notably Vivenna identifying Vasher in Warbreaker when she first made eye contact with him in crowded T'Telir. That might explain why Azure could pick Kaladin out of a crowd as someone special but still not spot the invisible Syl.

Pretty much every factor favors Zahel except maybe current Breath count: 300 years more experience including holding 4th Heightening and beyond in his lifetime, way less interference, and greater familiarity with Roshar. Unless Azure got waaaay more Breaths in the mean time, which is possible, the maximum Heightening that Azure has held is the third Heightening which she got from Lemex. Any of those could explain why Azure never spotted Syl while Zahel did. I don't think we can give a conclusive answer to what made the difference, as nearly everything favors Zahel beyond his status as a Returned.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Duxredux

[Soulcaster05]

Thanks everyone! So in summary, Zahel is both more experienced and more heightened, and had the opportunity to be in an isolated space in the quoted excerpt. Presumably Azure could have seen Syl too but may have mistakenly thought she was just a tad more bright windspren or something. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

8 hours ago, Soulcaster05 said:

Thanks everyone! So in summary, Zahel is both more experienced and more heightened, and had the opportunity to be in an isolated space in the quoted excerpt. Presumably Azure could have seen Syl too but may have mistakenly thought she was just a tad more bright windspren or something. 

Yes and/but...

Kaladin thinks that Zahel can see her, but Zahel never confirmed that, and I don't think he can actually "see" Syl.

He senses her presence via investiture so its a different type of sensing rather than sight

[alder24]

40 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

Kaladin thinks that Zahel can see her, but Zahel never confirmed that, and I don't think he can actually "see" Syl.

He can't see her but sense her, Zahel confirmed it in RoW ch 15:

Quote

He gestured with his chin toward Syl, flying down beneath them as a ribbon of light. “She’s what I now call a Type One Invested entity. I decided that had to be the proper way to refer to them. Power that came alive on its own.”
“You can see her!” Kaladin said.
“See? No. Sense?” Zahel shrugged. “Cut off a bit of divinity and leave it alone. Eventually it comes alive."

 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

 

38 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He can't see her but sense her, Zahel confirmed it in RoW ch 15:

 

Thanks! I was looking in the wrong book for that section. It was in my mind, but I was searching OB for it!