theSurgeOfPhysics Posted November 5, 2023 Posted November 5, 2023 (edited) Why Odium Chose Dalinar as His Original Champion: We know Odium’s plan was that he used the Thrill and molded Dalinar to become the perfect champion. I think Odium wanted Dalinar because he is the optimal vessel for Honor. If Odium broke Dalinar and made him his champion, there would be no vessel to take up Honor. It’s considered that opening the perpendicularity in that scene was Dalinar taking up a sliver of Honor and perhaps Ascending for a short moment, showing that he has the potential of being a full vessel. That is again why the contract in RoW involves Dalinar himself. Odium wants him specifically as a Fused, as it would likely be difficult/impossible to Ascend if he belongs to Odium. Rayse likely knew this and that’s why he formed the contract just prior to imploding (Odium’s vessel was cracking by the time of the contract) and allowing for Taravangian’s Ascension. Taravangian may not yet have figured out that Dalinar is a good candidate for Honor’s Vessel, and may not care, so Rayse’s contract is a way of ensuring Dalinar does not Ascend. All of this said, another champion can be chosen that destroys Dalinar’s honor and disqualifies him from being a proper vessel to contain Honor. Thoughts? Edited November 5, 2023 by theSurgeOfPhysics 1
alder24 Posted November 5, 2023 Posted November 5, 2023 9 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said: Why Odium Chose Dalinar as His Original Champion: We know Odium’s plan was that he used the Thrill and molded Dalinar to become the perfect champion. I think Odium wanted Dalinar because he is the optimal vessel for Honor. If Odium broke Dalinar and made him his champion, there would be no vessel to take up Honor. It’s considered that opening the perpendicularity in that scene was Dalinar taking up a sliver of Honor and perhaps Ascending for a short moment, showing that he has the potential of being a full vessel. That is again why the contract in RoW involves Dalinar himself. Odium wants him specifically as a Fused, as it would likely be difficult/impossible to Ascend if he belongs to Odium. Rayse likely knew this and that’s why he formed the contract just prior to imploding (Odium’s vessel was cracking by the time of the contract) and allowing for Taravangian’s Ascension. Taravangian may not yet have figured out that Dalinar is a good candidate for Honor’s Vessel, and may not care, so Rayse’s contract is a way of ensuring Dalinar does not Ascend. All of this said, another champion can be chosen that destroys Dalinar’s honor and disqualifies him from being a proper vessel to contain Honor. Thoughts? This is certainly one important factor but I think others are equally as important. First Dalinar the Blackthorn was a fearsome, bloodthirsty warrior, a monster who always wanted to fight, but at the same time he was a great tactician. This is a perfect person for Odium's future plans of conquering Cosmere. Dalinar was meant to lead the Odium's invasion of Cosmere, because he was so good at warfare. Secondly, Alethkar was historically known to harbor the best fighters on Roshar. In ancient Alethela people were training to fight to prepare for incoming Desolations, so the rest of Roshar could be at peace. Those people would be a very nice addition to Odium's army. And so it happens that Dalinar was the brother of the King, who after Gavilar's death, held the actual power over Alethkar. Even Diagram predicted that Dalinar might take the crown for himself. Blackthorn was respected. And if he were to join Odium, the rest of Alethkar would follow quickly after him, giving Odium the most powerful fighting force on Roshar, molded by the Thrill for generations. There would be no coalition against Odium. There is a reason why Alethkar was the first one to fall during the True Desolation - Odium wanted it. Dalinar was always honorable in the past, even as the Blackthorn. He always kept his promises when recruiting his elite guard, he spared the life of a child when he obtained Oathbringer and stuff like that. His Connection to Honor was there, but it didn't start to grow until Gavilar was killed, and Dalinar's fascination with The Way of Kings started. He was always meant to bond the Stormfather. And this is another reason why Odium wanted Dalinar - Dalinar would be the one to free Odium from Honor's binds, which chained Odium to Roshar. And that's probably one of the most important reasons for why Odium chose Dalinar. And the cherry on the cake was preventing Honor's potential Vessel from Ascending. Dalinar was just a perfect tool for Odium to take. 9 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said: Rayse likely knew this and that’s why he formed the contract just prior to imploding (Odium’s vessel was cracking by the time of the contract) and allowing for Taravangian’s Ascension. You want to suggest that Rayse allowed Taravangian to Ascend. No. Odium wasn't going to implode, he wasn't cracking. Rayse was enslaved by the power, but at the same time he kept pushing it to become the Shard of Passion - which brought conflict between the power and the Vessel. A dangerous conflict making Odium weak. But not that weak to implode. RoW ch 114: Quote He became the power. With it, he began to understand the cosmere on a fundamental level. He saw that his predecessor had been sliding toward oblivion for a long, long time. Weakened by his battles in the past, then deeply wounded by Honor, this being had been enslaved by the power. Failing to claim Dalinar, then losing the tower and Stormblessed, had left the being frail. Vulnerable. 1
theSurgeOfPhysics Posted November 6, 2023 Author Posted November 6, 2023 16 hours ago, alder24 said: Rayse was enslaved by the power, but at the same time he kept pushing it to become the Shard of Passion - which brought conflict between the power and the Vessel Interesting. So was Rayse’s Intent discordant with the Shard? Was Rayse trying to justify a shard of Passion over Odium, which went against the very nature of the Shard?
alder24 Posted November 6, 2023 Posted November 6, 2023 6 hours ago, theSurgeOfPhysics said: Interesting. So was Rayse’s Intent discordant with the Shard? Was Rayse trying to justify a shard of Passion over Odium, which went against the very nature of the Shard? It's not against the nature of a Shard but it was problematic, because he was pushing for a great change. It can be done, a Vessel has some influence over Shard's intent and can change it. Those problems are likely because of Rayse and how he was trying to change intent, someone else might be more successful, for Rayse it put him in a bigger conflict with the power of the Shard. This conflict was seen by Sja-Anat in her RoW interlude: Quote Odium wasn’t simply the mind that controlled the power: the Vessel. Nor was he merely that power alone: the Shard. He was both, and at times it seemed the power had desires that were counter to the purposes of the Vessel. [...] However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion. There was a weakness here. In the division between the Vessel and the Shard. Rayse isn't true to himself - part of him wants to be Passion, but the rest don't want to embrace it (he might be simply incapable because of how long he held the Shard) - thus there is a conflict. Part of the power is Passion as well, but part isn't whole Shard. At least that's my interpretation. Some WoBs on that: Spoiler yulerule So, we have Shard names; Ruin, Preservation, Harmony, Cultivation, Honor, Ambition, Autonomy, Devotion, Dominion. Those are pretty much regular English words. And then we have Odium. That's a little more Latinate. It's not-- It doesn't fit the pattern. Brandon Sanderson So I don't really look as something as Latinate or Germanic, when I'm picking the names usually. yulerule But this one is more. Even in Devotion or Dominion, their more regular English. Why? Brandon Sanderson I just look for the thing that feels right. Remember, all these words are in translation. When you read the book, they were a word in the original language of the book, that then we have translated to English. And so, don't look to much about what's Greek, what's Latin, what's Germanic. I will mix those a lot. And that's just because I'm looking for the word that has right resonance in English, that I'm writing in. You might even find Latin and Greek mixes in some of my stuff. And that's not done to be like, "Oh, you should be paying [attention]." Usually, I'm just looking for a flavor. yulerule So it's the flavor-- Because I actually did have it - they're all translations, why not <Hatred instead of Odium?> Brandon Sanderson Because Odium is cooler. It just sounds cooler. There is no answer other than "I like the word better." yulerule Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion? Brandon Sanderson He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is. yulerule His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it can influence. yulerule So the Shard's intent can-- Brandon Sanderson Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes. JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018) Spoiler m4ge If a Splintered Shard is somehow reformed, is it possible to change the word that expresses its Intent? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but that's a very implausible thing depending on how... so, you're getting into some weird Cosmere stuff here. Most of the ways that these different Shards could manifest could be described differently. Odium is trying very hard to describe his Shard as something different, and there's an argument there. But it depends on if you're like actually changing it or if you just want to call it something different. You could just call Odium Hatred and it's not going to change anything, but if you wanted to change Odium to mean Passion like Odium thinks that it means, then that's more difficult. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Spoiler Questioner In universe, all the intents and charts and names, who names them? Do they name themselves? Brandon Sanderson I have kind of imagined this is one of those things that they certainly have influence over. But obviously Odium thinks that he's named something other than what he is, and I feel like these are intrinsic things that the sixteen all knew. Like, "I am missing this part of me, it is this." And it was less "we went around and named them" more like "this is just what it is". And various Shards are resisting that, but the others are all like "No, this is what you represent". Billy Todd, Moderator Follow-up question there. Would the entity that we call Odium refer to itself as Odium when it's honest with itself? Brandon Sanderson Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. *laughter* There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. Billy Todd, Moderator So, does he genuinely believe in characterizing himself as Passion? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Part of him does. Billy Todd, Moderator Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering? Brandon Sanderson Yes. JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018) Spoiler Striker_EZ Why didn't Odium take the Investiture away from the Fused that rebelled against him at the end of Rhythm of War? At the end of Oathbringer, Odium tells one Fused that questioned him that he could take "that which gave [the Fused] life." So why didn't he do that to Leshwi and the others? Brandon Sanderson This is actually an excellent question. Odium, in his previous incarnation-- we'll see how he acts now-- part of the driving force of Odium is this kind of belief, mistaken or otherwise, that Odium represents all emotion, and strength of emotion, and basically the Passions in lore. Rebelling against him in the way that they did is actually in line with Odium's personal directives. The Vessel may not like it, in fact the power may not like it, but at the same time, there's a part of both of them that acknowledges, this is what they set in motion, and this is an appropriate use of the agency of the agents they chose. And so, unilaterally destroying those who turn against him is actually not an Odium thing. It's more an Honor thing than it would be an Odium thing. It's just not in line with how Odium acts or thinks, even though it's possible and there's threats and... That's not saying Odium wouldn't do it. But acting like Honor is not something Odium would necessarily want to do. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)
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