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Spren Hypothesis


Zas678

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I think this might be helpful in helping to describe a lot of the things that the Spren are, and what they do, and how they function.

There are three sorts of spren that are talked about. There's the Spren that Hesina (Kaladin's Mom) talks about, there's the spren that appear with certain cognitive/physical triggers, and then there's the Nahel Bond Spren that "bond" to receive intelligence from a human, and the human receives the ability to process Stormlight.

Hesina's Spren

“Mother, look at this,” Tien said. Late afternoon sunlight streamed through the leeside window, bathing the table.“From this side, the rock sparkles red, but from the other side, it’s green.”

“Perhaps it’s magical,” Hesina said. Chunk after chunk of longroot plunked into thewater, each with a slightly different note to the splash.

“I think it must be,” Tien said. “Or it has a spren. Do spren live in rocks?”

“Spren live in everything,” Hesina replied.

“They can’t live in everything,” Kal said, dropping a peel into the pail athis feet. He glanced out the window, watching the road that led from the town to the citylord’s mansion.

“They do,” Hesina said. “Spren appear when something changes--when fear appears, orwhen it begins to rain. They are the heart of change, and therefore the heart of all things.”

“This longroot,” Kal said, holding it up skeptically.

“Has a spren.”

“And if you slice it up?”

“Each bit has a spren. Only smaller.”

Kal frowned, looking over the long tuber. They grew in cracks in the stone wherewater collected. They tasted faintly of minerals, but were easy to grow. His family needed food that didn’t cost much, these days.

“So we eat spren,” Kal said flatly.

“No,”she said, “we eat the roots.”

“When we have to,” Tien added with a grimace.

“And the spren?” Kal pressed.

“They are freed. To return to wherever it is that spren live.”

“Do I have a spren?” Tien said, looking down at his chest.

“You have a soul, dear. You’re a person. But the pieces of your body very well may have spren living in them. Very small ones.”

Tien pinched at his skin, as if trying to pry the tiny spren out.

These Spren that Hesina describes (probably in layman's terms), seem to be similar to what Shallan sees when she travels to Shadesmar, the Cognitive Realm.

The bed, the nightstand, her sketchpad, the walls, the ceiling--everything seemed to pop, forming into tiny, dark glass spheres. She found herself in aplace with a black sky and a strange, small white sun that hung on the horizon,too far away.

Shallan screamed as she found herself in midair, falling backward in a shower of beads. Flames hovered nearby, dozens of them, perhaps hundreds. Like the tips of candles floating inthe air and moving in the wind.

She hit something. An endless darksea, except it wasn’t wet. It was made of the small beads, an entire ocean oftiny glass spheres. They surged around her, moving in an undulating swell. She gasped, flailing, trying to stay afloat.

You want me to change? a warm voice said in her mind, distinct and different from the cold whisper she hadheard earlier. It was deep and hollow and conveyed a sense of great age. Itseemed to come from her hand, and she realized she was grasping something there. One of the beads.

The movement of the ocean of glass threatened to tow her down; she kicked frantically, somehow managing to stay afloat.

I’ve been as I am for a great long time, the warm voice said. I sleep so much. I will change. Give me what you have.

“I don’t know what you mean! Please, help me!”

I will change.

She felt suddenly cold, as if the warmth were being drawn from her. She screamed as the bead in her fingers flared to sudden warmth. She dropped it just as a shift in the ocean swelltowed her under, beads rolling over one another with a soft clatter.

She fell back and hit her bed, back in her room. Beside her, the goblet on her nightstand melted, the glass becoming red liquid, dropping the three spheres inside of it to the top of thenightstand. The red liquid poured over the sides of the nightstand, splashingto the floor. Shallan pulled back, horrified.

The goblet had been changed into blood.

The spheres that Shallan sees are the spren that Hesina describes- the cognitive aspect of all things. In fact, Brandon has talked about these aspects before.

ZAS678

What is the X in Aon Mea? Is it one of the Shard-pools?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Afraid not. Aon Mea references the expanded region within which the "Elantris Effect" will create Elantrians. The X is fertile valley with a high density of life, a place with a lot of cognitive activity. (Cognitive as defined by Realmatic Theory includes the 'thoughts' of all things that exist, not just human beings. The more complex the life form, the stronger its presence on the Cognitive Realm.)

The flames that Shallan sees are the objects (human and spren) that have a presence in the Cognitive Realm, or, in other words, are intelligent.

Everyday Spren

Spren,however, could be very elusive. Sometimes, even the most commontypes--flamespren, for instance--would refuse to appear. That made it particularly frustrating for a man who had made it his life’s work to observe, catalogue, and study every single type of spren in Roshar.

I believe (and after digging through the text and not really finding anything), that Everyday Spren are things that appear when certain cognitive or physical triggers occur. This can vary, from purely physical things, such as flamespren, which are thus more common and predictable, to more cognitive things, such as confidence spren. We see that Syl (probably) believes this about every day spren (as well as herself).

"Bindspren,” Syl said, walking upbeside his head; she was still standing in the air.

“They’re holding the rock in place.”

“Maybe. Or maybe they’re attracted to what you’ve done in affixing the stone there.”

“That’s not how it works. Is it?”

“Do rotspren cause sickness,” Syl said idly, “or are they attracted to it?”

“Everyone knows they cause it.”

“And do windspren cause the wind? Rainspren cause the rain? Flamespren cause fires?”

These Everyday Spren can be captured and utilized, if Navani's notes are right, if they are put in the proper gemstones and fed Stormlight, creating what are called fabrials.

The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it. There must be thousands of possible combinations. Once a spren is captured and the gem infused with Stormlight the fabrial can be used in machines.

Another thing- these Spren, require Stormlight. For example, in Shinovar, where there are no Highstorms (and thus no Stormlight), no Spren are noticed.

Nahel Spren

Nahel Spren are a subcategory of Everyday Spren. They have purely cognitive triggers. These include Honorspren, like Syl, who was attracted to Kaladin because of he "Protected those who couldn't protect themselves" and thus acted honorably.

See this quote, from when Kaladin almost committed suicide:

“Why?” he pled. “Why do you care?”

“Because I do,” she said, cocking her head. “I watchedyou, you know. Back in that army. You’d always find the young, untrained menand protect them, even though it put you into danger. I can remember. Justbarely, but I do.”

“I failed them. They’re dead now.”

“They would have died more quickly without you. You madeit so they had a family in the army. I remember their gratitude. It’s what drewme in the first place. You helped them.”

A note here- it's not the gratitude that drew her. It's the fact that he helped them. The young, untrained who couldn't protect themselves. In other words, Syl was attracted to Kaladin because he was already following the Second Ideal of the Knight Radiants.

They also include Symbolspren/Truthspren (I personally prefer the second, because it describes when it appears, rather than a description of the spren), who give Shallan an experience to interact with Shadesmar, the Cognitive Realm whenever she says a truth about herself.

Creatures, she said in herhead. Can you hear me?

Yes, always, a whisper came in response. Though she’d hoped to hear it, shestill jumped.

Can you return me to that place? she asked.

You need to tell me something true, it replied. The more true, the stronger our bond.

Jasnah is using a fake soulcaster, Shallan thought. I’m sure that’s a truth.

That’s not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you.Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful thebond. Tell me. Tell me. What are you?

“What am I?” Shallan whispered. “Truthfully?” It was a day for confrontation. Shefelt strangely strong, steady. Time to speak it. “I’m a murderer. I killed my father.”

Ah,the voice whispered. A powerful truth indeed. . . .

A subnote- The Nahel Bond. This bond is two part. In exchange for helping the Spren gain intelligence, the Human gains the ability to process stormlight- in being able to manipulate the Surges of Pressure and Gravity for Kaladin, and the Surge of Transformation (and something else?) for Shallan.

We see the give and take of the bond in this quote from Syl:

“I’m behind what is happening to you,” she said, voice soft. “I’m doing it.”

Kaladin frowned, stepping forward.

“It’s both of us,” she said. “But without me, nothing would be changing in you. I’m . . . taking something from you. And giving something in return. It’s the way it used towork, though I can’t remember how or when. I just know that it was.”

“I--”

“Hush,”she said. “I’m talking.”

“Sorry.”

“I’m willing to stop it, if you want,” she said. “But I would go back to being as I was before. That scares me. Floating on the wind, never remembering anything for longer than a few minutes. It’s because of this tie between us that I can think again, that I can remember what and who I am. If we end it, I lose that.”

And I believe that it's clear, throughout the course of the book, that Syl is the one that is giving Kaladin his abilities.

Another note- the Trigger of a spren, and the ability it allows its Human to have aren't unrelated. When the Truthspren talk to Shallan the first two times, they ask not for a truth, but for her identity. They ask "What are you?" when she does Soulcast the goblet, my belief is that she helps the cognitive self of the goblet to become something else than what it is.

So this still leaves a bunch of questions left unanswered. Why do the spren only appear sometimes? What about individual spren, like the one Axial the Collector collects? And why is Shallan able to feel the Truthsprenfor a brief moment?

If there's something I missed, or something you think doesn't make sense, let me know.

EDIT 2/13/12

Ah! I knew I forgot a quote.

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren.”

This quote is very important.

First off, it says that Alakavish was a Surgebinders, where Surgebinders end up being Knight Radiants.

Second, we can assume from this that at least some Surgebinders had Nahel Bond Spren.

From this quote from Jasnah:

. Suffice it to say that every Radiant’s abilities were tied to the spren.”

We can amend that to all Surgebinders having Spren (presumably Nahel Bond Spren).

Third: Not all Nahel Bond Spren are Honorspren. There's a difference, otherwise Nohaden wouldn't make the distinction.

From this, I think we can say that since not all Surgebinder spren are Honorspren, and thus the Symbolspren that Shallan sees are (probably) not Honorspren.

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I think that's a great summary of all things spren, and I agree with just about everything you said. I especially like the note about the Trigger being related to abilities, when the Truthspren ask Shallan for her identity. But if that's the case, then what is Syl taking from Kaladin in exchange for what she's giving him? As far as I can tell, she's attracted to things he's already doing, not asking him for anything else.

The other thing that I would love to know about spren is why they take on a fixed aspect when someone records their measurements. I feel like this is really important, but I can't figure out what it means. I assume it has something to do with their Cognitive aspect. And does it only apply to measurements? What else could you record about a spren that would then become fixed? Could you use this to manipulate them somehow? Is that how they get trapped in gems? And have we seen spren that are affected by this, and we just don't know it yet? Are all spren somehow affected by how people perceive them?

Hopefully you've got some thoughts on this, because it's been bugging me ever since I read the book.

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But if that's the case, then what is Syl taking from Kaladin in exchange for what she's giving him? As far as I can tell, she's attracted to things he's already doing, not asking him for anything else.

I believe that she is taking intelligence. She wasn't intelligent before she met him, and now she is. Does this mean that Kaladin is less intelligent? I don't think so. I think it's a little bit like a candle. When you have a lit candle, and you touch it to a unlit candle, the combined flame is bigger than one candle alone. Syl has all of the structuring- a personality, some memories-she just lacks the spark of awareness- that's what Kaladin gives her.

What does this mean for the Turthspren? Are they intelligent on their own? Or perhaps they have the spark of awareness, but they lack a personality. I don't know. We'll probably get more answers about them next book.

As for the measuring... I'm not sure.

Perhaps when the measuring occurs, the Cognitive aspect of the human ends up "reinforcing" the limited cognitive aspect of the Spren, thus confining it to the shape defined. I would guess that this applies to many things. Perhaps it is helping to define the spren. I don't know.

I don't think that this is what they do for fabrials, because these ardents are researchers, and would probably already know how fabrials are made.

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Thanks, Zas. Since reading in the Urithiru thread about your theory, I've been looking forward to it. I had a thought about spren that fit with what was happening in the U thread, but really didn't have anything to do with U. Anyway this does touch on one aspect of your theory, so I'll hope it fits here.

I've been thinking about the honorspren problem. The honorspren problem is that, in world, there are only references to one type of honorspren and the spren Shallan and Kaladin (both presumably on the path to radiance) experience seem quite different.

Look at the following "facts" together (please help me correct these facts, I want to fill in quotes later, too).

  1. Nohadon refers to honorspren (quote in OP)
  2. Syl refers to herself as an honorspren (quote below)
  3. Syl often appears as an attractive young woman
  4. Syl apparently gives Kaladin the ability to infuse stormlight and to manipulate gravity and pressure (and maybe windriding) (quote in OP)
  5. Syl starts by playing tricks on Kaladin, then asking Kaladin about himself, then becomes a sort of companion/sidekick
  6. Syl is attracted to Kaladin by his actions (there is also a Brandon quote that I'll try to dig up)
  7. the spren that Shallan (in her drawings) and Elhokar (in the mirror) see appear alien, inhuman and frightening, with symbolheads
  8. the Shallanspren ask her for truths about herself (quote in OP)
  9. the Shallanspren allow her access to Shadesmar (which allows her to soulcast/tramsform)
  10. Shallan's other magical ability may relate to her drawings and "mental snapshots"
  11. Jasnah can also transform things, presumably using a spren, and recognizes Shallanspren

I see three theories about these spren:

  1. these are all honorspren
  2. the Shallanspren are truthspren, which are not honorspren
  3. honorspren is a generic term and the Shallanspren/truthspren are a specialized form of honorspren (truthspren honorspren) and Syl is an honorspren honorspren

I believe that the Nahel bond acts by giving spren human cognition and humans get spren abilities. But Kaladin only gets some abilities. For example, Syl can change her appearance and detect people at a distance, but Kaladin shows no abilities in those areas.

It occurs to me that these apparent differences between the spren can be reconciled. I would like to therefore propose the Only Honorspren Hypothesis in the hope that it contributes to our discussions.

Only Honorspren Hypothesis: the radiants bond with only one type of spren, the honorspren.

But the truthspren ask Shallan for truths, and give her different abilities. The difference could follow from the one thing we know to be different. Shallan has acted differently than Kaladin. I propose that the particular spren abilities honorspren provide depend on the Nahel bondee's actions. It may also be that the way the bond forms is different depending on the bondee's actions (hence the truthspren's need for truths).

The future radiant acts honorably in one of ten different flavors. An honorspren is attracted and starts stalking them and providing some ability. The honorspren needs to know and understand the bondee for the bond and the abilities to strengthen. The particular abilities provided are dependent on the actions of the bondee. Oaths follow.

???

Profit!

Just as the variable flamespren are bound by a measurement, the variable honorspren provide abilities that are bound to the measure of the bondee.

A beauty of this hypothesis is that it is easily tested. If Jasnah names the spren that she or Shallan experience as truthspren (or similar), that will be evidence. If Shallan draws Syl as a symbolhead or not, that could be proof. What Rock sees when he spends time with Shallan, Jasnah and maybe Dalinar may be evidence.

What do y'all think?

Quotes:

Chapter 67, paperback p1139

... "Perhaps not. You see, I've remembered what kind of spren I am."

"Is this the time for it, Syl?"

I bind things, Kaladin," she said, turning and meeting his eyes. "I am honorspren. Spirit of oaths. Of promises. And of nobility."

Edited by hoser
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I support the "honorspren is a generic term" hypothesis.

It's as honor is a generic term. If I challenged you to give me one definition of honor, I believe there wouldn't be much of you who could define it without referring to other more specific terms. Honor is both perceived by someone himself and by others. You have an inherent honor which can be insulted, you think about things being honorable. Others may think about you in a completely different way (Dalinar is a very good example of that).

So if honor is many things, there is lots of actions which can be taken for honorable, according to the context. This is my interpretation of the Divine Attributes. Every one of those can be interpreted as manifestation of honor.

different spren could then become honorspren according to what they do.

Syl binds things. That's what she says. We know from Kaladin's thoughts at the beginning, when he is still in his cage as a slave, that windspren are known to bind things. So does Syl even when she has already gained sentience. How strange it is, that windspren grant the powers to become a Windrunner.

Shallan's spren do different things. If every honorspren would bind things, shouldn't Shallan be on her way to become a Windrunner? No she is not, because other honorspren do other things. Like transforming goblets, bread or people.

Another different thought for you, zas:

what of the multitude of Shallanspren? Even after she Soulcasts for the first time, she keeps seeing Shallanspren, more of them. Shouldn't there be only one of them left?

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what of the multitude of Shallanspren? Even after she Soulcasts for the first time, she keeps seeing Shallanspren, more of them. Shouldn't there be only one of them left?

Well, perhaps the reason she continues to see these "Shallanspren" (is that what we're calling them now?) is because she is still holding within her a great and deep truth (murdering her father) and not necessarily wanting to bind with her, though one of them may be. After she confesses, we never read that she interacts, communicates, or see the spren within the last few pages of the book. It is entirely possible that after she confessed, the other spren moved on, no longer attracted to her from her great secret. I think this is more likely.

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It is entirely possible that after she confessed, the other spren moved on, no longer attracted to her from her great secret.

If true, that would bring up some interesting questions, wouldn't it? If these spren are attracted to people with dark secrets, why is one attracted to Elhokar?

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...

Shallan's spren do different things. If every honorspren would bind things, shouldn't Shallan be on her way to become a Windrunner? No she is not, because other honorspren do other things. Like transforming goblets, bread or people.

...

Telcontar,

Your interpretation may well be correct. I am afraid that in a long and winding post I was not clear.

What I was trying to say was that since Kaladin has been leading and protecting, when Syl binds to him, of her many powers his Windrunner actions allow him to harness Windrunner abilities.

Perhaps Shallan has been particularly creative and honest, so when the Nahel bond forms with the symbolspren, from it's many abilities, her Shash-order actions grant her access to Shadesmar. In Shadesmar, her interactions are directly with the goblet, and the stormlight induces it to change.

In other words, I am hypothesizing that both the symbolheads and Syl have access to Shadesmar and can manipulate pressure and gravity. The difference in the abilities gained lies in the actions taken by the bondee.

A minor point is that, as I recall it, Syl realizes that she is not a windspren. I am also saying that all the symbol/truth/Shallanspren does is grant access to Shadesmar and possibly help the stormlight go from gem to goblet. Anybody with access to Shadesmar can interact similarly. The spren is not transforming things.

from chapter 57 paperback p 992

Something occurred to Kaladin. Something, perhaps, he should have asked long ago."You're not a windspren, are you?"

She hesitated, then shook her head. "No."

"What are you, then?"

"I don't know. I bind things"

Hope this helps

Edited by hoser
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Ah! I knew I forgot a quote.

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren.”

This quote is very important.

First off, it says that Alakavish was a Surgebinders, where Surgebinders end up being Knight Radiants.

Second, we can assume from this that at least some Surgebinders had Nahel Bond Spren.

From this quote from Jasnah:

. Suffice it to say that every Radiant’s abilities were tied to the spren.”

We can amend that to all Surgebinders having Spren (presumably Nahel Bond Spren).

Third: Not all Nahel Bond Spren are Honorspren. There's a difference, otherwise Nohaden wouldn't make the distinction.

From this, I think we can say that since not all Surgebinder spren are Honorspren, the Symbolspren that Shallan sees are (probably) not Honorspren.

I'm editing the above into my original post.

As for the number, I don't know. Perhaps it isn't a one for one relationships for all the Nahel spren. Perhaps Soulcasters have several (up to ten?), one for each Essence. I'm not sure. My guess is that the Nahel Spren does not work exactly the same way for each Order, but the idea of "give and take" seems to be similar for both Syl and the Symbolspren.

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I think that's a great summary of all things spren, and I agree with just about everything you said. I especially like the note about the Trigger being related to abilities, when the Truthspren ask Shallan for her identity. But if that's the case, then what is Syl taking from Kaladin in exchange for what she's giving him? As far as I can tell, she's attracted to things he's already doing, not asking him for anything else.

The other thing that I would love to know about spren is why they take on a fixed aspect when someone records their measurements. I feel like this is really important, but I can't figure out what it means. I assume it has something to do with their Cognitive aspect. And does it only apply to measurements? What else could you record about a spren that would then become fixed? Could you use this to manipulate them somehow? Is that how they get trapped in gems? And have we seen spren that are affected by this, and we just don't know it yet? Are all spren somehow affected by how people perceive them?

Hopefully you've got some thoughts on this, because it's been bugging me ever since I read the book.

This is interesting! I never thought of it before, but someone had a theory that Nohadon changed how spren operate, thus making the Nahel bond tied to the KR ideals. Is it possible that all he had to do was write something down? Measure something, write it down, and change the very nature of the Nahel bond?

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Ah! I knew I forgot a quote.

This quote is very important.

First off, it says that Alakavish was a Surgebinders, where Surgebinders end up being Knight Radiants.

Second, we can assume from this that at least some Surgebinders had Nahel Bond Spren.

From this quote from Jasnah:

We can amend that to all Surgebinders having Spren (presumably Nahel Bond Spren).

Third: Not all Nahel Bond Spren are Honorspren. There's a difference, otherwise Nohaden wouldn't make the distinction.

From this, I think we can say that since not all Surgebinder spren are Honorspren, the Symbolspren that Shallan sees are (probably) not Honorspren.

I'm editing the above into my original post.

As for the number, I don't know. Perhaps it isn't a one for one relationships for all the Nahel spren. Perhaps Soulcasters have several (up to ten?), one for each Essence. I'm not sure. My guess is that the Nahel Spren does not work exactly the same way for each Order, but the idea of "give and take" seems to be similar for both Syl and the Symbolspren.

Excellent quote, Zas - it was what I thought of when I perused threads today and saw this "honorspren is a generic term" idea propagating around. I think that theory falls completely apart when you examine all of the spren-related info (as you did in the original post).

It seems clear that Surgebinders are a generic group, who gain powers through the Nahel bond; the Knights Radiant were a group of Surgebinders who built a structured organization around the ideals. It also seems as though the Knights Radiant may well have tapped into a way to gain additional abilities by way of the Nahel bond (e.g. Kaladin's Level Up when he speaks the 2nd Windrunner idea).

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If true, that would bring up some interesting questions, wouldn't it? If these spren are attracted to people with dark secrets, why is one attracted to Elhokar?

That would be interesting indeed. Perhaps something to do with the people Elhokar was talking to in the prologue at the party? I heard somewhere that those might be Elantrians or something. Could that be what Elhokar is trying to hide, their conversation?

Edited by Maps
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This is interesting! I never thought of it before, but someone had a theory that Nohadon changed how spren operate, thus making the Nahel bond tied to the KR ideals. Is it possible that all he had to do was write something down? Measure something, write it down, and change the very nature of the Nahel bond?

In a word, no. I can't write down that spren are 400 miles long and they suddenly become so. It must be something that is observed. The more accurate the observation, the more fixed the spren becomes.

Also, it doesn't apply to all spren- just the one you've observed.

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In a word, no. I can't write down that spren are 400 miles long and they suddenly become so. It must be something that is observed. The more accurate the observation, the more fixed the spren becomes.

Also, it doesn't apply to all spren- just the one you've observed.

Hmm...that made me think of something. It's been said in these forums that Sanderson bases some of his ideas on physics and what you describe above, if that's what you meant, is one of the strange aspects of quantum mechanics. Quantum particles seem to change depending on who is observing them.

Wouldn't use this source for a paper, but per Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics):

"In physics, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observation will make on the phenomenon being observed. This is often the result of instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner. A commonplace example is checking the pressure in an automobile tire; this is difficult to do without letting out some of the air, thus changing the pressure. This effect can be observed in many domains of physics."

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In a word, no. I can't write down that spren are 400 miles long and they suddenly become so. It must be something that is observed. The more accurate the observation, the more fixed the spren becomes.

Also, it doesn't apply to all spren- just the one you've observed.

I did say about measuring it... but if all spren are the same individual (per Syl) there is probably a way to measure one spren so that they are all bound by the same effect.

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Well, this kind of plays into the philosophical argument of 'reality is perception'. Everything about the world around us is filtered through our own experiences, ideologies, etc, and this would come into play MOST with the kind of spren that are capable of Nahel bonds, rather than physical spren like flamespren. Flamespren, rainspren, rockspren...those can be measured in quantifiable ways, but honorspren you simply can't measure quantifiably...its always going to be based on your interpretation of honor.

And that's why I think its both possible that honorspren is a generic term for all spren capable of the bond, and that Nohaden changed them to fit with the KR ideals....because it was based on how he perceived them, and honor in general. Essentially, his standards became the new bar by which honor is measured....resulting in honorspren becoming 'fixed' according to the ideals he laid down for the Knights Radiant.

As for honorspren being a generic term, Syl describes herself as 'binding things', but I wouldn't describe that as a fundamental description of honor...at least no more than Truth or other possible angles or facets. Binding things could be construed as a kind of loyalty, which is definitely honorable, but I see the ten facets of the Knights Radiant like Loyalty, Truth, Chivalry, etc ( just guessing as to what other Ideals might be) as all together making the full spectrum of Honor. It seems like there's an in world taxonomy system for spren, or the potential for one, with all the focus on them being measured and studied, etc, and most classification systems have multiple levels. Going by evolutionary classification tables (just as an example, not looking to start a theology debate, lol), we are said to be primates which make us cousins to apes, and in turn we are all mammals, which along with avians, etc are all vertebrates, and so on. It seems pretty plausible to me that truthspren, chivalryspren, loyaltyspren, protectionspren...could all be cousins (taxonomically speaking) and different types of honorspren, which in turn are a type of cognitivespren, not to be confused with physicalspren like rockspren or flamespren, etc.

Edited by ROSHtafARian
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I did say about measuring it... but if all spren are the same individual (per Syl) there is probably a way to measure one spren so that they are all bound by the same effect.

Seems unlikely, since measuring a flamespren only affected the particular flamespren being measured and did nothing to the flamespren right next to it. I'd assume if that spren disappeared there would be no spren bound by those measurements.

On the other hand, the interludes do like to tell us a variety of significant things in concentrated little bits. That same one told us that Ardents understand about the Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical Realms, and that know of people who are capable of visiting Shadesmar.

“I wonder if they eat in the Cognitive Realm. Is a food there what it sees itself as being? I’ll have to read and see if anyone has ever eaten while visiting Shadesmar.”
There is definitely a significance how recording things about the Spren affects the Spren itself, and I find it interesting that the Ideals are both written in Nohadon's Way of Kings, and important to the particular Orders of the Knights Radiant. (Kaladin's observation that the Stormlight worked better for him after speaking the 2nd Ideal of the Windrunners.)

In regards to original post, sounds pretty good zas678.

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OK, after reading all the above theories, here are some of my ideas:

1. Nohadon's amendment and KR. I think Nohadon did not, in fact, change the Nahel bond itself. What he did was to create Knights Radiant system of oaths using the Dawnshard, which provide a shortcut to Honor (shard) power, boosting the abilities of people who speak (and follow) the oath if they already have them, like a spike for the Allomancer who already has the corresponding metal. SO the system allowed for additional powers (and may have had something to do with Plate control), gave incentive to join (power boost), and allowed the renegades to be hunted down with relative ease.

2. I think there are Aspectspren that form Nahel bond, and, while being aspects of honor or Virtues(honor bound, honor truth, love, etc), may not demand their binder to be honorable. The Shallan's spren, in particular, seem to be more like creepy stalkers. They do not care what the truth is, as long as it is hidden (that is why I refer to them as Secretspren sometimes). You can confess to be a murderer, rapist and child eater, a liar and a cheat, and they will probably give you the same abilities. (OK, maybe not the last two)

3.I think Spren draw heavily from the quantum theory, as it is understood by Brandon himself. Thus, if we follow the analogy, spren are like the cognitive particles of the objects/ feeling that are described or perceived by sentient creatures as objects. Thus, the answer to "Do Windspren spren cause wind" would be "Yes, they do, in a way". The wind, as an "object", has its own cognitive aspect/bead or whatnot. In normal circumstances, this aspect , on physical plane, is made of "virtual spren", undetectable by humans. However, fed by Stormlight some spren become "real", energetic enough to be detected, and, once detected, fixed in some way by human perception. Once measured, the spren becomes even more fixed by coupling between cognitive aspect of measurement and the spren, limiting its options. It is quite possible that simply concentrating on the particular spren will fix it in place, but writing it down provides a fixed focus of concentration, a separate bead that constantly binds the spren. (This raises a question: do any spren (visible ones) exist where there is no one to observe them?)

For some other ideas about fabrials, please see a theory in the sig :)

Disclaimer: all of the above is just my interpretation, some supported by writing and some just a conjecture, etc, etc...

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