Intent of the vessel vs. Shard characteristic

[ShardbladebutwithaT]

I'm only on late 2018 shardcast, but I'm 100% current on all Cosmere works. Now before I get into my inaugural hairbrain theory, I want to establish a few things that we already know or seem to know.

Part 1:

1. Vessels can somewhat guide the shard based on personality.

2. A being can hold multiple shards at once.

3. The shard can potentially re-coalesce.

That means:

Essentially, for someone/something with unlimited patience, it could be possible to quietly wait for a while while a shard coagulates into something claimable.

Part 2

Kelsier has been Preserved for a long long time. He's essentially stuck. And if he hasn't figured out how to leave, I think he has plenty of time to do so.

Spren can be summoned across the cognitive realm to other planets, meaning something deeply connected to a certain planet can potentially leave.

Part 3

Todium happened. Nightblade is super OP and can yeet a vessel straight into the spiritual realm.

Theory:

I've long held that Kelsier is the ultimate villain of the Cosmere. Given all of the upheaval and eventual shenanigans that will occur over SA5 and MB Era3, I think Kelsier will end up holding the power of Odium. But, with him as the vessel, it's not the same Odium. We know that Rayse was a turd, and his personality emphasized certain characteristics of the shard. When Kelsier picks it up, it truly becomes passion. That same violent "kill all the nobles" passion that we've seen before. 

 

And because he's had so much longer to wander the Cosmere, and with his expanded consciousness, he has determined when and where the shattered shards will coalesce. Within a very short time, he will pick up Ambition to become Lust. Then Devotion And Dominion to become Zealotry. Within a very short time, we now have a Vessel holding 4 of the most dangerous shards.

 

With a quarter of the Shards possessed by one vessel, the Cosmere is in for some crazy rough times. 

 

Kel, of course, is going to think that he can exert his personality and use the Shards for good. But we all know how that'll turn out. 

[alder24]

9 hours ago, ShardbladebutwithaT said:

Essentially, for someone/something with unlimited patience, it could be possible to quietly wait for a while while a shard coagulates into something claimable.

Well, true, but in ~11000 years since the Shattering only Rayse had been trying to redefine Odium into Passion, and he wasn't successful. Ati on the other hand was more successful but he didn't change Ruin's intent, just focused it towards entropy. Once you pick up a Shard it becomes a battle of minds that you will eventually lose.

Spoiler

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Shards and Shard intents: Holding a Shard is a contest of willpower against the Shard that, over time, is very hard to resist.

Shards affect you over time, but your mind will not leave a permanent effect on the Shard. A holder's [Vessel's] personality, however, does get to filter the Shard's intent, so to speak. However, if that holder [Vessel] no longer held that Shard, the Shard will not continue to be filtered by that person.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

 

Spoiler

m4ge

If a Splintered Shard is somehow reformed, is it possible to change the word that expresses its Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but that's a very implausible thing depending on how... so, you're getting into some weird Cosmere stuff here. Most of the ways that these different Shards could manifest could be described differently. Odium is trying very hard to describe his Shard as something different, and there's an argument there. But it depends on if you're like actually changing it or if you just want to call it something different. You could just call Odium Hatred and it's not going to change anything, but if you wanted to change Odium to mean Passion like Odium thinks that it means, then that's more difficult.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

9 hours ago, ShardbladebutwithaT said:

Kelsier has been Preserved for a long long time. He's essentially stuck. And if he hasn't figured out how to leave, I think he has plenty of time to do so.

This is because of his nature as a Cognitive Shadow, not because he held Preservation. It's because his spirit web was infused with so much Investiture that he got tied to Scadrian system. It's really hard for Cognitive Shadows to leave their world.

Spoiler

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

9 hours ago, ShardbladebutwithaT said:

Spren can be summoned across the cognitive realm to other planets, meaning something deeply connected to a certain planet can potentially leave.

Yes but that's hard, and they don't know how to leave their system yet. Spren, like Cognitive Shadows, are pure Investiture of a Shard, they are tied to the system and can't leave. Other planets, like Braize, don't count if you're on Roshar, this is still the same star system. If spren or Cognitive Shadows want to leave, they have to mess with this Connection that ties them to their system. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Do Splinters require proximity to their Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Do they require it for what?

Questioner

Function--

Brandon Sanderson

Function. It's very hard for most Splinters to leave the realm where they were Splintered, but this gets into tricky stuff because the Shard mostly occupies the Spiritual Realm, but what do you mean by the Shard? Because the essence of the Shard is in the Physical Realm, it's all across the cosmere, and things like this. Usually once something is Splintered it is difficult for them to leave that area, so yes.

Questioner

And in the system--

Brandon Sanderson

You see it with the-- I would call most Cognitive Shadows a Splinter in some ways. And you see it when Kelsier tries to leave, right. And spren would have the same trouble, and seons would have the same trouble. But at the same time is that a proximity to the Shard? Kind of. Things get very wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey when you start dealing with the nature of the Spiritual Realm in the cosmere. 

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

 

9 hours ago, ShardbladebutwithaT said:

Todium happened. Nightblade is super OP and can yeet a vessel straight into the spiritual realm.

Nightblood didn't yeet a Vessel into the Spiritual Realm (he already was there), he consumed Rayse entirely. Rayse is gone, his spirit web got eaten by Nightblood.

 

9 hours ago, ShardbladebutwithaT said:

I've long held that Kelsier is the ultimate villain of the Cosmere. Given all of the upheaval and eventual shenanigans that will occur over SA5 and MB Era3, I think Kelsier will end up holding the power of Odium. But, with him as the vessel, it's not the same Odium. We know that Rayse was a turd, and his personality emphasized certain characteristics of the shard. When Kelsier picks it up, it truly becomes passion. That same violent "kill all the nobles" passion that we've seen before. 

Truthfully he might have some Connection to Odium, and Brandon said he would be as dangerous as Odium.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Iceblade44

if Kelsier were to take the shard Odium, how terrifying and dangerous would he be?

Brandon Sanderson

I could see Kelsier being very dangerous with Odium. His hatred of certain groups of people would lead him down bad paths.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 7, 2016)

 

But remember Kelsier changed because of Vin. She showed him that not every noble was bad, and even if he hated the idea of Elend becoming a king, he eventually grew to like him. Kelsier isn't the same as we saw him early in TFE.

However Kelsier as Odium would have the same problem as with Preservation - he lacks Connection to the Physical Realm, he has no body, he is just a shadow of a person - this would make it hard for him to control the Shard and use its power to its full potential. SH 6.4:

Quote

"Look at you, Kelsier! You haven’t form or shape. You’re not alive, you’re an idea. A memory of a man holding the power will never be as potent as a real one with ties to all three Realms.”

Unless Kelsier gets a permanent Connection to PR (a spike isn't that) he won't be very good at being any Shard. 

10 hours ago, ShardbladebutwithaT said:

And because he's had so much longer to wander the Cosmere, and with his expanded consciousness, he has determined when and where the shattered shards will coalesce.

No. He can't predict where Shards will get Splintered and where they will appear. That doesn't work like that. He doesn't have any future sight. He is a Sliver, he held a Shard, his mind WAS expanded, but isn't anymore. 

Keep in mind, the longer a Cognitive Shadow lives, the more mentally unstable they become. Just look at Heralds or Fused. Kelsier living for thousands of years will end up like them unless he figures something out, like Hoid did. An insane Shardholder sounds really bad.

Spoiler

celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain Cognitive Shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a Cognitive Shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are Cognitive Shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a Cognitive Shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Sept. 8, 2020)

 

10 hours ago, ShardbladebutwithaT said:

Within a very short time, he will pick up Ambition to become Lust. Then Devotion And Dominion to become Zealotry. Within a very short time, we now have a Vessel holding 4 of the most dangerous shards.

You can't just go around and pick up multiple Shards, not to mention Splintered Shards in CR. Look what it took for Sazed to pick up both Shards - he needed specific Connections to both of them and detailed understanding of their nature when they're combined. Kelsier wasn't suitable for Preservation, he was lacking both Connection and understanding, he needed Ire's device to Ascend, and even with this the Shard was opposing him. It's hard to Ascend to multiple Shards. And it's really hard to unite Splintered Shards, so hard that nobody ever did this. Odium pushed Devotion and Dominion into CR specifically to prevent someone from Ascending to those Shards - it's even harder to Ascend to those Shards. And we don't know how Ambition ended up, but we can expect Odium did something to her to prevent Ascension. So while theoretically it's possible, it's really, really hard.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium locked the Selish Shards in the Cognitive Realm to keep them from achieving sentience or someone Ascending.

Footnote: taken from General Q&A
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

 

Overall that's an interesting idea, Kelsier as Odium alone sounds terrifying.