Trusk'our he/him Posted October 21, 2023 Posted October 21, 2023 It is possible to Bond certain Awakened objects, such as Nightblood, to obtain more effects from them. Quote Warbreaker Annotations - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Brandon Sanderson Another note here is that Nightblood can sense where Vasher is. This is because Nightblood has ingested and fed off Vasher's Breaths in the past. When he does that, it connects him to someone. It's also, by the way, one of the secrets as to why Vasher doesn't get sick when holding Nightblood, even though he's a good person. It's not simply familiarity (though that is part of it). Nightblood has a built-in test. If he feeds off you and you survive, then you become somewhat immune to his powers. Quote https://wob.coppermind.net/events/509/#e16019 bubblebooy Could one negate the negative effects of wielding Nightblood with an aluminum gauntlet? Brandon Sanderson *hesitantly* This is theoretically possible, but you also wouldn't get some of the benefits. But many of the benefits are not being utilized by people who draw Nightblood. So to some of them, it would be... you wouldn't be able to notice the difference. I think that it would be possible then to form a Bond with a Hemalurgic spike that was Invested enough, had the correct Spiritweb fragments spliced into it, and perhaps that had the correct Command. This could be interesting, as the Bindpoint you place the spike in wouldn't matter so much- the Bond is what would transfer the use of powers to the Hemalurgist, not the Bindpoint hotwiring itself. This might, then, be another way to gain access to more than one power with only one spike. Basically, it's like making an artificial version of Yelig-nar, but reigned in with better Commands (hopefully. Playing with such powers is probably going to have complications at some point or another). Plus, you probably wouldn't have to bear the spike yourself, just have it nearby to gain access to its powers.
alder24 Posted October 21, 2023 Posted October 21, 2023 54 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: It is possible to Bond certain Awakened objects, such as Nightblood, to obtain more effects from them. I think that it would be possible then to form a Bond with a Hemalurgic spike that was Invested enough, had the correct Spiritweb fragments spliced into it, and perhaps that had the correct Command. This could be interesting, as the Bindpoint you place the spike in wouldn't matter so much- the Bond is what would transfer the use of powers to the Hemalurgist, not the Bindpoint hotwiring itself. This might, then, be another way to gain access to more than one power with only one spike. Basically, it's like making an artificial version of Yelig-nar, but reigned in with better Commands (hopefully. Playing with such powers is probably going to have complications at some point or another). Plus, you probably wouldn't have to bear the spike yourself, just have it nearby to gain access to its powers. I think every Hemalurgic spike is technically considered to be bonded with you - after all, its charge is merged with your spirit web, just like a spren bonded with their knight via the Nahel Bond.
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 21, 2023 Author Posted October 21, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: I think every Hemalurgic spike is technically considered to be bonded with you - after all, its charge is merged with your spirit web, just like a spren bonded with their knight via the Nahel Bond. Would it not normally be more akin to how Allomancy is part of your Spiritweb? Especially considering the fact that you can become a Savant via Hemalurgically stolen powers as you could with normal Allomancy, but Surgebinding Bonds protect the Radiant from the worst of the side effects of Savantism. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/259/#e8742 Questioner 1 Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device? Brandon Sanderson All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant. Questioner 1 So they are protected from being turned into-- Brandon Sanderson Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarification* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight]. Questioner 1 Or is that counteracted by the healing as well? Brandon Sanderson Healing doesn't have to do with it because-- in cosmere terms there's nothing wrong with your body, your spirit is actually drifting, and so it's not hurting you physically by what's happening with the magics. So it's not the healing but if you have an active bond with a spren it takes a little different path. Let's just say, in simple terms-- Questioner 1 You are not losing body parts to smoke. Brandon Sanderson Yes, you are not losing body parts to smoke. Questioner 1 What timeframe does it happen for the normal Soulcasters then? Brandon Sanderson For normal Soulcasters? It takes-- I mean, you've seen it happening in the books. We are talking [about] a process of years even decades, depending on the person. It happens to some-- Questioner 2 Depending on how often they Soulcast? Brandon Sanderson It depends on how often they Soulcast, and it depends on the person. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/373/#e12024 Questioner As far as Hemalurgy, when you give that-- when it's done to somebody, would that create a new resonance? Brandon Sanderson It's possible that it could. Though I'm gonna say, most of the time, no... Lots of things are possible, but I'll give you a "mostly no" on that one. Questioner What about savantism? Is that possible with Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it is. So, under this categorization, Hemalurgically stolen powers couldn't count as Bonds normally- you'd need to do something else to make it count as a Bond.
alder24 Posted October 21, 2023 Posted October 21, 2023 22 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: Would it not normally be more akin to how Allomancy is part of your Spiritweb? Especially considering the fact that you can become a Savant via Hemalurgically stolen powers as you could with normal Allomancy, but Surgebinding Bonds protect the Radiant from the worst of the side effects of Savantism. Hide contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/259/#e8742 Questioner 1 Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device? Brandon Sanderson All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant. Questioner 1 So they are protected from being turned into-- Brandon Sanderson Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarification* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight]. Questioner 1 Or is that counteracted by the healing as well? Brandon Sanderson Healing doesn't have to do with it because-- in cosmere terms there's nothing wrong with your body, your spirit is actually drifting, and so it's not hurting you physically by what's happening with the magics. So it's not the healing but if you have an active bond with a spren it takes a little different path. Let's just say, in simple terms-- Questioner 1 You are not losing body parts to smoke. Brandon Sanderson Yes, you are not losing body parts to smoke. Questioner 1 What timeframe does it happen for the normal Soulcasters then? Brandon Sanderson For normal Soulcasters? It takes-- I mean, you've seen it happening in the books. We are talking [about] a process of years even decades, depending on the person. It happens to some-- Questioner 2 Depending on how often they Soulcast? Brandon Sanderson It depends on how often they Soulcast, and it depends on the person. Hide contents https://wob.coppermind.net/events/373/#e12024 Questioner As far as Hemalurgy, when you give that-- when it's done to somebody, would that create a new resonance? Brandon Sanderson It's possible that it could. Though I'm gonna say, most of the time, no... Lots of things are possible, but I'll give you a "mostly no" on that one. Questioner What about savantism? Is that possible with Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it is. So, under this categorization, Hemalurgically stolen powers couldn't count as Bonds normally- you'd need to do something else to make it count as a Bond. But a Radiant still can become a Savant so what's the problem? A spirit web is just a bunch of Connections, and spikes take a part of it and add it to your spirit web. Allomancy is a Connection, a bond between you and Preservation, and that's not very different from a Nahel Bond. What I tried to say is that the magic system would likely define Hemalurgy as a bond, just like a Nahel Bond, in the same way the system defines a Shardblade as already Awakened. I feel like your question doesn't make much sense from the magic point of view - can you bond something that's a part of your soul - it's already a part of your soul, already bonded with you. Spoiler Questioner Can you awaken a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson Can you Awaken a Shardblade? A Shardblade would already be defined as Awakened, by the magic systems. Questioner And what about the Plate? Brandon Sanderson Plate would already be defined as probably too heavily Invested to Awaken because it already is. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 21, 2023 Author Posted October 21, 2023 17 minutes ago, alder24 said: But a Radiant still can become a Savant so what's the problem? A spirit web is just a bunch of Connections, and spikes take a part of it and add it to your spirit web. The difference is that Surgebinding Savantism is explicitly stated as being different from normal forms of Savantism- the Bond somehow changes how it manifests in a Surgebinder and reduces the negative consequences (i.e., not turning into the essences the Radiant Soulcasts). We have received no such WoBs saying Hemalurgy protects its user from Savantism the same way, and the way the WoB that says you can become a Savant through Hemalurgic powers makes me believe that Hemalurgy Savantism is the same as regular Allomantic Savantism (that is an interpretation on my part though, and I admit that I could be jumping to conclusions). It would be pretty interesting if Hemalurgy did protect you from the worst of Savantism though. That might be another perk to Hemalurgic spikes if it's true. 17 minutes ago, alder24 said: Allomancy is a Connection, a bond between you and Preservation, and that's not very different from a Nahel Bond. And yet it's still not the same a Radiant Bond. I'm honestly not sure how it works. Maybe because a Spren's nature is already close to the essence of the Surges wielded by their Radiant, making the Connections between their Spiritwebs adapt the Radiant's Spiritweb as a whole to better handle the Investiture they use. That's just a guess though. All I know for certain is that an Allomancer's Connection to Preservation and a Surgebinder's Bond aren't the same because the information we currently have says they aren't. 25 minutes ago, alder24 said: What I tried to say is that the magic system would likely define Hemalurgy as a bond, just like a Nahel Bond, in the same way the system defines a Shardblade as already Awakened. I know what you were trying to say, I simply disagree with it; Cosmere wide effects and magics often work under the same mechanics, such as multiple forms of Lightweaving, Awakening, Bonds, etc. I'm not convinced that Allomancers or Hemalurgists wielding grafted Allomancy do Bond with their Investiture though (under normal circumstances); the information we have just doesn't support that, even though it seems like it would make sense at first glance. We need more information to know why this is the case, but from what I can tell it is the case. 32 minutes ago, alder24 said: I feel like your question doesn't make much sense from the magic point of view - can you bond something that's a part of your soul - it's already a part of your soul, already bonded with you. You can take Bonds with Hemalurgic spikes, such as from Radiants or Aviar, so Bonding another spike doesn't seem too far-fetched. Perhaps Hemalurgic spikes work differently than a piece of Spiritweb being part of the rest or acting as a Bond- maybe they count in some ways as being a part of your Spiritweb, but are still somewhat separate. That would explain why you don't pass down the Allomantic or Feruchemical powers you get from Hemalurgy and why it is still possible to take functional Bonds from other entities.
alder24 Posted October 22, 2023 Posted October 22, 2023 12 hours ago, Trusk'our said: The difference is that Surgebinding Savantism is explicitly stated as being different from normal forms of Savantism- the Bond somehow changes how it manifests in a Surgebinder and reduces the negative consequences (i.e., not turning into the essences the Radiant Soulcasts). We have received no such WoBs saying Hemalurgy protects its user from Savantism the same way, and the way the WoB that says you can become a Savant through Hemalurgic powers makes me believe that Hemalurgy Savantism is the same as regular Allomantic Savantism (that is an interpretation on my part though, and I admit that I could be jumping to conclusions). Because Radiants have their soul merged with super-invested sapient spren, who grants them Surgebinding powers, so a spren might take the majority of Savantism changes, which won't affect a spren that much, as they have no physical body. In Hemalurgy you have a non-sapient, and also not aware piece of a soul, a tiny bit invested compared to a spren. Hemalurgy also physically changes your body - a spike won't protect you from Savantism as it's a tiny bit compared to the worth of your soul. Both Radiants and Hamalurgists can become Savants, so this doesn't matter in this discussion. 12 hours ago, Trusk'our said: And yet it's still not the same a Radiant Bond. I'm honestly not sure how it works. Well, you have a connection, filling cracks in your soul, to a sapient piece of investiture, which gives you powers via this connection. You can make it sound very similar even if they're not exactly the same. A Connection is still a Connection. 12 hours ago, Trusk'our said: You can take Bonds with Hemalurgic spikes, such as from Radiants or Aviar, so Bonding another spike doesn't seem too far-fetched. Stealing bonds from others and bonding with something that is already a part of your soul is vastly different. Can you bond with your own soul? This doesn't make sense in my opinion, that's why I think your idea isn't possible. I also think that because the piece of soul inside of a spike is not even self-aware, not to mention any sapience or sentience, you won't be able to bond it even if it's outside of your body. Can you even bond a spren that's stuck in a gemstone or fabrial?
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 22, 2023 Author Posted October 22, 2023 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Because Radiants have their soul merged with super-invested sapient spren, who grants them Surgebinding powers, so a spren might take the majority of Savantism changes, which won't affect a spren that much, as they have no physical body. In Hemalurgy you have a non-sapient, and also not aware piece of a soul, a tiny bit invested compared to a spren. Hemalurgy also physically changes your body - a spike won't protect you from Savantism as it's a tiny bit compared to the worth of your soul. Interesting. I could see that being the case for Radiants, though the fact that Allomancers don't have a similar protection despite being Connected to one of the most highly Invested beings in the Cosmere makes me think that there's more separating an Allomancer's powers from a Surgebinder's Bond. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Both Radiants and Hamalurgists can become Savants, so this doesn't matter in this discussion. I respectfully disagree with this statement; while they can both become Savants, there is a notable difference between the ways it manifests in both, meaning that there must be a difference between the mechanics of a Bond and an Allomancer's powers. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Well, you have a connection, filling cracks in your soul, to a sapient piece of investiture, which gives you powers via this connection. You can make it sound very similar even if they're not exactly the same. A Connection is still a Connection. True, a Connection is still a Connection, so there must be a difference in other factors at play. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Stealing bonds from others and bonding with something that is already a part of your soul is vastly different. Can you bond with your own soul? This doesn't make sense in my opinion, that's why I think your idea isn't possible. It's kind of part of your Spiritweb- there's still something that's separating it, otherwise the examples I gave before don't really make a lot of sense (I suppose there could be other explanations, but I can't think of any at the moment). I suppose that if you couldn't find a way to directly Bond it you could let someone else Bond it and you then steal their Bond with another spike, though the very fact that you can retain a stolen Bond by taking a part of someone else's Spiritweb should mean that you could Bond the spike directly- otherwise it wouldn't matter that you took another person's chunk of Spiritweb that held a Spren Bond and stapled it on to yourself if it counted enough as your own Spiritweb that it couldn't hold a Bond. I think the reason Hemlaurgists stealing Bonds would need to spike both the Spren and the Radiant is because the Spren has agency and isn't going to like the Hemalurgist stealing their friend's Spiritweb. As for why you don't just spike the Spren and make it Bond yourself, maybe it just doesn't hold enough sapience on its own normally to do that (in which case, you'd need to Invest it a lot more and let it gain a greater semblance of life). Or maybe you're right and you'd just need to have two spikes, one to hold the power and one to Connect it to you. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: I also think that because the piece of soul inside of a spike is not even self-aware, not to mention any sapience or sentience, you won't be able to bond it even if it's outside of your body. I was thinking along the lines of making the Spike more aware, similar to the Malwish medallions, and giving it a Command specifically to let you Bond it (I don't think I mentioned that part. Sorry, my bad). The other option (if that fails) is to Invest the spike a lot more (via Awakening or repeated spiking of congruent Identity donors), allowing it to gain a semblance of sapience through sheer Investiture. It's not really efficient, but if you were already powerful and had the resources to do so it might be worth it to eliminate the need for more spikes. In any case, I think that the creation of a Bondable spike is going to be much harder than making most, but the payoff could be a lot more too- I do wonder that if you were to be capable of making a spike that could be Bonded if you could gain access to all Metalborn powers with it.
alder24 Posted October 22, 2023 Posted October 22, 2023 14 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I was thinking along the lines of making the Spike more aware, similar to the Malwish medallions, and giving it a Command specifically to let you Bond it (I don't think I mentioned that part. Sorry, my bad). The other option (if that fails) is to Invest the spike a lot more (via Awakening or repeated spiking of congruent Identity donors), allowing it to gain a semblance of sapience through sheer Investiture. It's not really efficient, but if you were already powerful and had the resources to do so it might be worth it to eliminate the need for more spikes. That's more possible, and you might be able to form a proper Nahel Bond, which would require you to spike yourself (to merge two souls) for it to work. But truthfully I don't think it would give you that much - the power you gain should be more or less the same (unless you investing the spike to sapience somehow expanded this part of the spiritweb, which might be possible), and at best you would have a talking companion, possibly with Ruinous personality. 18 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I do wonder that if you were to be capable of making a spike that could be Bonded if you could gain access to all Metalborn powers with it. No. You get access to only what's coded in spike's spirit web - that's only what you've stolen. You don't get much from bonding Nightblood.
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 22, 2023 Author Posted October 22, 2023 3 hours ago, alder24 said: That's more possible, and you might be able to form a proper Nahel Bond, which would require you to spike yourself (to merge two souls) for it to work. But truthfully I don't think it would give you that much - the power you gain should be more or less the same (unless you investing the spike to sapience somehow expanded this part of the spiritweb, which might be possible), and at best you would have a talking companion, possibly with Ruinous personality. Yeah, a "Spren" of Ruin would probably be like Nightblood in its goals; destroy everything or destroy X thing specified at time of creation. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: No. You get access to only what's coded in spike's spirit web - that's only what you've stolen. You don't get much from bonding Nightblood. Makes sense, but what if you charged all 32 powers into an Atium spike and then Bonded it? It can potentially hold any power- it's real limitation would be the fact that you could only place it in a single Bindpoint, but Bonding it would negate that limitation. As an added bonus, it's already decently Invested so forming a self-aware piece of Investiture with it should be easier. Harder to pull off, and not something that could be created on a large scale, but it could be very powerful for a few individuals.
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