Satsuoni he/him Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) My guess is that he isn't converting mass into energy, or making a perfect O2 H2 mix. Do you guys know what Entropy is? Well a basic description is that in the Statistical sense, things tend to go toward a more disordered state, as there are more possibilities in disordered states than a clean state. It's like a dirty room. There's about a bajillion different possibilities that will define your room as "dirty", so it is simply more likely that it will be dirty than clean. Under this definition of Entropy, it is theoretically possible that for a mixed gas of N2 and O2 in a container, all of the N2 will be on one side, and all of the O2 is on the other side. It's possible, but it's only one possibility out of a bajillion, so it's not ever going to really happen. I have once posited that Entropy in Cosmere is related to the Shardic intent within its realm of influence, and that the entropic maximum shifts (locally) with the interpretation of this Intent. And have since edit-deleted the post since nobody responded What I believe Soulcasting is, (at least Shallan's) is to "convince" the spren of an object to vibrate just a little bit differently. So it isn't so much that the Flaming Man is actually turned into Fire. It's that Jasnah has convinced the spren to vibrate just a little faster (okay, a LOT faster) so that he burns. So yes, there should be ash (or at least Smoke). Except, there wasn't, at least in the description: Jasnah’s hand sank into the man’s skin, and he froze. A second later he burned. No, he became fire. Transformed into flames in an eyeblink. Rising around Jasnah’s hand, they formed the outline of a man with head thrown back and mouth open. For just a moment, the blaze of the man’s death outshone Jasnah’s gemstones. Shallan’s scream trailed off. The figure of flames was strangely beautiful. It was gone in a moment, the fire dissipating into the night air, leaving an orange afterimage in Shallan’s eyes. I think that Brandon doesn't really Break the Laws of Thermodynamics in his books, as they're just a little bit... different. See the Iron mass/momentum thread, or the Redshift thread, where he tweaks the laws just a titch so that we can have sweet powers- so he can tell dynamic stories. I agree. Edited February 8, 2012 by Satsuoni 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortellini Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) What I believe Soulcasting is, (at least Shallan's) is to "convince" the spren of an object to vibrate just a little bit differently. So it isn't so much that the Flaming Man is actually turned into Fire. It's that Jasnah has convinced the spren to vibrate just a little faster (okay, a LOT faster) so that he burns. So yes, there should be ash (or at least Smoke). I think this is definitely a step towards an explanation. However, physically this still doesn't make sense, due to the difference in density. 80kg of gas require much more volume than 80kg of liquids and solids, so there should still be an explosion due to expansion of gasses. The real reason is much simpler and less grounded in physics, I believe: soulcasting does not follow the conversion of mass and engery. This actually reminded me of something Brandon said when I asked him about soulcasting bridges on the shattered plains into stone: He said it wouldn't be practical because the stone bridges would be heavier and collapse without additional reinforcement. It never clicked for me until now, but that very definitely means that when wood is soulcast to stone, the same piece of matter gains weight, braking the principle of conversation of mass. Jasnah's firecasting (and the lack of an explosion) shows the same: A person is soulcast into the same volume of hot gas, but not the same mass. And since there is no release of energy anywhere near what is required for E=mC2, there is no conservation of energy. There are 2 ways to make this still fit that come to my mind: one is that the interaction between the 3 realms plays a role somehow - i.e. mass or energy can shift between realms somehow. Energy seems likelier, that could be an option. The other, crazier one, is that C (the speed of light) is ridiculously low in the Cosmere. Maybe someone should ask Brandon about C in the Cosmere at a reading, I'm sure that would be an unexpected question for him Edited February 8, 2012 by Tortellini 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeshdan he/him Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think this is definitely a step towards an explanation. However, physically this still doesn't make sense, due to the difference in density. 80kg of gas require much more volume than 80kg of liquids and solids, so there should still be an explosion due to expansion of gasses. The real reason is much simpler and less grounded in physics, I believe: soulcasting does not follow the conversion of mass and engery. This actually reminded me of something Brandon said when I asked him about soulcasting bridges on the shattered plains into stone: He said it wouldn't be practical because the stone bridges would be heavier and collapse without additional reinforcement. It never clicked for me until now, but that very definitely means that when wood is soulcast to stone, the same piece of matter gains weight, braking the principle of conversation of mass. Jasnah's firecasting (and the lack of an explosion) shows the same: A person is soulcast into the same volume of hot gas, but not the same mass. And since there is no release of energy anywhere near what is required for E=mC2, there is no conservation of energy. There are 2 ways to make this still fit that come to my mind: one is that the interaction between the 3 realms plays a role somehow - i.e. mass or energy can shift between realms somehow. Energy seems likelier, that could be an option. The other, crazier one, is that C (the speed of light) is ridiculously low in the Cosmere. Maybe someone should ask Brandon about C in the Cosmere at a reading, I'm sure that would be an unexpected question for him That would explain the fire problem, but it doesn't seem to fit with the scene where Jasnah soulcasts the boulder into smoke. It is explicitly stated there that the smoke explodes out because it is far less dense than stone, which only makes sense if we conserve mass. If you can explain that, then your theory will hold. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilum he/him Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Personally, I believe that some readers are taking everything a bit too literally. It is a work of fantasy, meaning that the impossible is possible. People have spent, what seems to be hours, doing research on chemistry to prove a point, yet ignore the fact that Shardbearers summon their blades out of thin air. We call it fantasy for a reason. The mechanics don't have to translate to known physics. Stop worrying about trying to prove Sanderson flawed, and simply enjoy the works that he grants us. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geckoman Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 That would explain the fire problem, but it doesn't seem to fit with the scene where Jasnah soulcasts the boulder into smoke. It is explicitly stated there that the smoke explodes out because it is far less dense than stone, which only makes sense if we conserve mass. If you can explain that, then your theory will hold. what if when you soulcast it basically replaces each "stone" atom with a "smoke" atom. When I say atom i just mean the basic building block that makes up smoke. That could be a molecule, a set of molecules or maybe the cosmere doesn't even have the same subatomic structure as our universe . So in the instant of soulcasting the block of smoke has the same volume and the same density of particles(but not the same mass because a smoke atom has less mass), but the smoke is a gas so it will try to spread out evenly in the surrounding air. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortellini Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 That would explain the fire problem, but it doesn't seem to fit with the scene where Jasnah soulcasts the boulder into smoke. It is explicitly stated there that the smoke explodes out because it is far less dense than stone, which only makes sense if we conserve mass. If you can explain that, then your theory will hold. I think I can. The soulcast boulder could in no way preserve it's mass - let's do the math. Assuming the boulder is ~60g/mol (this is the value for silica, major component in most minerals), and is 30 Metric Tons total (volume of ~ 11 m3) , turning it into gas would yield a volume of 12 200 m3, more than 1000 times the volume of the stone. That is a medium-sized detonation, and definitely fatal for everyone in a closed space. So no conservation of mass there. The question is what exactly is Smoke, from a material point of view? Now, if smoke really is heated gas, then the simple fact that the newly created smoky air is hotter than the surroundings would cause heavy steaming to spread the smoke instantly - sort of like opening a pressure cooker. That would look pretty much like what Shallan described. Now, that was one of the nerdiest things I've ever done... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aradel he/him Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Now, that was one of the nerdiest things I've ever done... You're welcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altonahk Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 That would explain the fire problem, but it doesn't seem to fit with the scene where Jasnah soulcasts the boulder into smoke. It is explicitly stated there that the smoke explodes out because it is far less dense than stone, which only makes sense if we conserve mass. If you can explain that, then your theory will hold. The glow of flame is caused by fluorescing gas. That takes a fair amount of energy. I wonder is some of the matter was converted into energy to superheat the gas so that is would fluoresce like flame; but I'm not really sure. I'm guessing that all the molecules/atoms of the object were replaced with the molecules/atoms of the substance/reaction desired. If some were sacrificed for energy... but I'm just grasping now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 I am of the opinion that, we haven't factored in the differences from our world to that of Roshar. If Soulcasting is linked to the Cognitive, which has been said to be a go-between of the Physical and the Spiritual, and we assume that the spren of Roshar are Spiritual beings, if not some residue of Honour himself, who is more than likely to function from within the Spiritual Realm, then, surely, Soulcasting acts as a siphon within the Cognitive Realm, using the power of the Stormlight trapped in the cell (gem) to initiate active transport (where normally, naturally, particles or energy flow into the Spirit Realm ) to draw 'fire spren' as a pure Essence into the Physical Realm, and pulling the object back to the Spiritual Web. This would mean the equation (if we are going to get into this fancy stuff) would necessarily need to be balanced, meaning 80kg of spren (of which unknown quantities inhabit each cm of fire, making it possible to minute amount of fire to be produced this way), for 80kg of theif. Now, this spouts my two personal theories: 1) The gem's power/Stormlight activates the Cognitiive Aspect as a siphon, replacing (technically, swapping) object>Essence in a balanced equation. This would explain why the goblet Shallan turned into Blood pleaded with her to 'free' it back into the Spiritual Realm, as it hated the idea of being trapped in the Physical. Blood was thus drawn from the Spiritual to replace it, using the power and type (garnet) of the gem. This theory about being free in a Spiritual sense, and the Physical being a curse, has a strange Buddhist/Nirvana feel to it. 2) [science] If we instead disregard this and talk about pulling pure fire out of mid-air, perhaps the energy of the gem used (as it is clear as gem's power is necessary) dampens the power output, or 'tucks it away' with a sheet of Stormlight in the Cognitive Realm. Perhaps this is the great ball of energy that resides above the 'sea of gems' in Shadesmar. Collected energy. [/scienceyTwistedImaginationVision] That's my two-cents. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telcontar Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 1) The gem's power/Stormlight activates the Cognitiive Aspect as a siphon, replacing (technically, swapping) object>Essence in a balanced equation. This would explain why the goblet Shallan turned into Blood pleaded with her to 'free' it back into the Spiritual Realm, as it hated the idea of being trapped in the Physical. Blood was thus drawn from the Spiritual to replace it, using the power and type (garnet) of the gem. This theory about being free in a Spiritual sense, and the Physical being a curse, has a strange Buddhist/Nirvana feel to it. Thank you, I've alway had trouble with what the goblets spirit/spren said to Shallan. It has so much the feel of wanting to change, to get free. this gives a good explanation for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikomis he/him Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Bad pun alert! Would that make the theif an "Adam" Bomb Hate to make an offtopic but, I remembered this joke and... http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/04/feds-shutter-online-narcotics-store-that-used-tor-to-hide-its-tracks.ars Operation Adam Bomb is actually a thing!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lil_literalist he/him Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 So, I propose one of these two ideas: 1) Soulcasting for fire transforms the object into a red-burning fuel-air mixture with a low ignition temperature but high burn temperature. 2) Brandon Sanderson didn't do a great deal of research on the chemical nature of fire and treated it as a Classical Elementalist would. Fire never really gets an accurate, scientific, approach in fantasy, so I have learned to deal with it. Personally, I agree with number 2. Sanderson has well-thought-out rules for all of his magic. However, those don't necessarily have to line up with the laws of nature as we know them in this world. What we need to do is figure out how the system works inside Sanderson's mind. I think this is definitely a step towards an explanation. However, physically this still doesn't make sense, due to the difference in density. 80kg of gas require much more volume than 80kg of liquids and solids, so there should still be an explosion due to expansion of gasses. The real reason is much simpler and less grounded in physics, I believe: soulcasting does not follow the conversion of mass and engery. This actually reminded me of something Brandon said when I asked him about soulcasting bridges on the shattered plains into stone: He said it wouldn't be practical because the stone bridges would be heavier and collapse without additional reinforcement. It never clicked for me until now, but that very definitely means that when wood is soulcast to stone, the same piece of matter gains weight, braking the principle of conversation of mass. Jasnah's firecasting (and the lack of an explosion) shows the same: A person is soulcast into the same volume of hot gas, but not the same mass. And since there is no release of energy anywhere near what is required for E=mC2, there is no conservation of energy. There are 2 ways to make this still fit that come to my mind: one is that the interaction between the 3 realms plays a role somehow - i.e. mass or energy can shift between realms somehow. Energy seems likelier, that could be an option. The other, crazier one, is that C (the speed of light) is ridiculously low in the Cosmere. Maybe someone should ask Brandon about C in the Cosmere at a reading, I'm sure that would be an unexpected question for him I'm liking this, and I think it needs to be emphasized that when something is soulcast, the resulting material occupies the same volume. Now, what happens when you soulcast something (just focusing on the 10 elements)? Whatever you just soulcast is changed into a completely pure form of that element. Purer, in fact, than you might find naturally occurring in the world. Smoke is quickly dissipated in air, but is it not possible that a pure form of smoke is far thicker than what you would find coming off of a wood fire? So much thicker, in fact, that it would actually explode outward? Does the density of the material that you began with actually matter for the end product? Probably. I just can't picture smoke being soulcast out of a volume of air and exploding outward in the same way that the smoke from the stone did. However, we do know that buildings can be soulcast out of air (although this might just be rumor) and that grain is easiest or best to soulcast from small boulders. Any thoughts on this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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