Several Theories

[Triasmus]

K... I don't think I've read anything that debunks these theories or anything that these copy. I just finished WoK for the second time and I came out with a few ideas.

I don't even know how much on board i'm on with any of these theories, I'm just putting them out there as Food for Thought.

Brandon said that Tanavast is the original holder of the Shard Honor, I believe. To me that makes it sound like somebody else now holds Honor. I propose that Jezrien (or a different Herald) somehow found and "picked up" Honor after Tanavast died and before Odium was able to shatter it. That allows Jez to really be the Stormfather instead of just being called the Stormfather.

Going off of the previous idea, only it doesn't specifically have to be a Herald that picked up the Shard, I propose that when Kaladin is Stormsurfing and a voice says "Child of Tanavast. Child of Honor. Child of one long since departed." the voice is meaning three different people, or concepts maybe. Tanavast is a person. Honor could be the concept or idea of honor or the current holder of the shard. the one long since departed could be the Herald of Kaladin's Order.

"What is this, Jezrien?" Kalak asked. "Where are the others?"

"Departed." Jezrien's voice was calm, deep, regal.

When I read the stormsurfing part, I figured it could have been Cultivation or Roshar's possible third shard that spoke.

Jasnah could be in the third order. She keeps Smokestone, Ruby, and Diamond on her soulcaster. She could easily just have those ones because they're the most efficient for her to have though. That leaves the fourth for Shallan. She uses her eyes for Memories, although we don't really see her display as much Loving/Healing as other things.

I'm pretty sure I had other things, I just can't think of them now .

I welcome criticism

EDIT: use this chart for ars arcanum usage. thanks to odium for reminding me.

EDIT 2 - Forgotten Things:

Valley of Truth obviously ties in with Szeth being truthless (to me at least).

I just don't know if the valley of truth is somewhere in shinovar or if it is shinovar. I'm thinking it might be somewhere in Shinovar because Szeth thinks about it and then he thinks about Shinovar 2 paragraphs later

Nevermind, it's in the same paragraph. And that paragraph is what's making me think they might be the same.

But no. In Shinovar he'd never smelled refuse like that--pungency compounded by weeks spent marinating. He was not home. There was no place for him in the Valley of Truth.

I believe the shinovar merchant was the guy who first owned Szeth, along with anyone else who's going to read the next quote.

“You couldn’t trade me a soldier, could you?” Vstim asked as they waited.

“They cannot be sold to an outsider, I am afraid.”

“But there was that one you traded me…”

“It’s been nearly seven years!” Thresh said with a laugh. “And still you ask!”

“You don’t know what I got for him,” Vstim said. “And you gave him to me for practically nothing!”

“He was Truthless,” Thresh said, shrugging. “He wasn’t worth anything at all. You forced me to take something in trade, though to confess, I had to throw your payment into a river. I could not take money for a Truthless.”

“Well, I suppose I can’t take offense at that,” Vstim said, rubbing his chin. “But if you ever have another, let me know. Best servant I ever had. I still regret that I traded him.”

“I will remember, friend,” Thresh said. “But I do not think it likely we will have another like him.” He seemed to grow distracted. “Indeed, I should hope that we never do….”

Nightwatcher is called a boy and a girl in two different situations.

It was as if the Nightwatcher toyed with them, playing some forbidden game of chance, occasionally setting the men on his gameboard as allies, then setting them to kill one another the next day.

66% of the way through (~pg660)

"These visions are not in line wiht what I've understood about the Nightwatcher," Ranarin said. "Most consider her to be just some kind of powerful spren.

72% of the way through (~pg720)

People talk about the Nightwatcher living in the "Valley" and the only other valley we hear about is the Valley of Truth (I think).

Again, most of this is just Food for Thought.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Lantern13

[Eri she/her]

Hm... I think if Jez was the new Honor, he would talk to Dalinar and tell him something more helpful. And we wouldn't hear ”Honor is dead” as often.

And if he picked up only a part of the Shard, he would be a Splinter Sliver, and (on Reddit, IIRC) Sanderson said that he's not.

edit: Why do I always gat Slivers and Splinters mixed up? OK, on Reddint Q&A I asked the right thing, so this post still makes sense... A Splinter he probably is / has, actually.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Eri

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I think it's 99.9 percent certain that Shallan is in Order 6, the attributes for that order just fit far better then anything else. Also the attributes for order 3 don't fit Jasnah at all, in particular "obedient", which she certainly isn't, given her rejection of her society's religious expectations.

[Satsuoni he/him]

Me, I think The Shard of Honor is free now (unheld). For all we know, the face in the storm may just be another rider (possibly Jezrien). I also think that Jasnah is Smokestone, sharing one Surge with Kaladin (Sapphire) (probably Pressure), and one with Shallan(garnet) (transformation). In addition, I think that Jasnah is Dustbringer. Just IMO, of course.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

except they have to be in adjacent orders because that's the way the orders work.

[Satsuoni he/him]

except they have to be in adjacent orders because that's the way the orders work.

Well, yes. Aren't Sapphire, Smokestone and Garnet adjacent? I always assumed they were, in the upper right corner (blue for Sapphire, black for Smokestone, reddish for Garnet)?

[Odium's_Shard]

Ok I am using a nifty little chart located here for my theory.

I am going to propose that Jasnah is Betab (#7) simply because it is the only one that seems to fit her and shares Transformation with Shash. However this implies that Jasnah and Shallan now have two different unique abilities. One may by Travel? But only Transformation is shared.

[Eri she/her]

For all we know, the face in the storm may just be another rider (possibly Jezrien).

That's a really good idea, so simple yet I didn't even think about it.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Well, yes. Aren't Sapphire, Smokestone and Garnet adjacent? I always assumed they were, in the upper right corner (blue for Sapphire, black for Smokestone, reddish for Garnet)?

no, Garnet is order 6, the red order adjacent to Smokestone is Ruby.

Edited January 5, 2012 by CrazyRioter

[Satsuoni he/him]

That's a really good idea, so simple yet I didn't even think about it.

Thank you.

Well, Kaladin did perceive himself as storm. So how would another storm look like to him? And it seems a nice way to get a lot of information at once... So I thought, why not?

Ah, adjacent by numbers? Are you sure they are ordered that way? What about central ones?

[EDIT] OK, color me surprised. I may be wrong. BTW, what was the typo in the Ars Arcanum? Something with learned/giving belonging to another number.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Satsuoni

[CrazyRioter she/her]

the attributes for orders 2 and 5 were switched.

[Satsuoni he/him]

the attributes for orders 2 and 5 were switched.

That really throws me off.. Thank you. Hm.. maybe Shallan is Ruby. Or we may all be wrong, and Brandon has thrown a few schools of red herrings at us, and is laughing himself silly.

[Odium's_Shard]

Use this chart from Stormblessed. Completely up-to-date and with additional (welcome) information.

[Aiken Frost he/him]

Why Shallan and Jasnah couldn't be from the same order?

[Satsuoni he/him]

Why Shallan and Jasnah couldn't be from the same order?

They can, but the following makes it unlikely:

Jasnah held up a hand. “These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.” She tapped the desk softly. “Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe. I had assumed that you… But no, that obviously wouldn’t make sense. I see now.”

[Odium's_Shard]

Also, they're personalities don't match up, and we don't know how Jasnah's Nahel bond with whatever spren it is works. Does she use truthspren too? Doesn't relate with that quote. There isn't enough information about Jasnah to make a conclusion. Shallan however, is almost definitely in Shash #6.

[Triasmus]

I decided them for those orders because Shallan uses eyes with her memories and I explained how ruby was in the middle of the three stones jasnah uses. and thanks for linking in the chart, that was one of things things i forgot to put in the first post. Will edit it in now. good possible other stormsurfer theory. I like it.

[Tortellini]

One thing that supports the idea of Shallan and Jasnah being in different orders is that they are actually going to Shadesmar in different ways - remember that Shallan somehow actually disappeared and physically went to Shadesmar, which really surprised Jasnah. Jasnah did not cross physically to Shadesmar and does not even know that's possible.

[Triasmus]

I'm in the boat of Shallan's Memories being attached to her radiantness. I'm also in the boat that thinks that Jasnah's stormlight bolt isn't truly soulcasting (although it might be, since it was still soulcasting that was done when it hit the criminals). And why would the author put the two soulcasters we currently know in the same order, when he (like everyone else) wants to show off what he created. And we don't know if Shallan physically went to shadesmar. Jasnah was surprised that Shallan could go in the first place and that Shallan woud be stupid enough to go with such a small bribe, but to an outside observer it could easily look like both Shallan and Jasnah just going into a trance-like state.

[Odium's_Shard]

Personally, I am also in this boat. Let's assume that Shallan is in #6 (Shash) and Jasnah is #7 (Betab). The Surge they obviously share is Transformation. So, it is feasible that the unique Surge for Shash is related to these Memories, and Betab's unique Surge is related to Jasnah's bolts. However, these bolts commit Soulcasting, so this is unlikely.

This would mean that:

Shash's Surges: Transformation, Memory

Betab's Surges: Transformation, Lightning?

[Triasmus]

I'm editing my main post with more things, just typing this down here because this is where people will look.

EDIT: sorry, I should have written this post after I edited my original. It took me longer than I thought it would. It's now edited.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Lantern13

[Odium's_Shard]

About your recent edit.

I like this disparity between the Nightwatcher's gender, but this could simply be explained by the fact that it is genderless, as a spren (if that's what it is), or that people don't really know much about it, like how Brandon made us think there were only Ten Metals in The Final Empire.

About the Valley being Shinovar, I don't think so. I think it is where the Stone Shamans live. He seems to have lived there, or perhaps 'studied' there? He seems to have been given a "cursed" Blade, which makes me think this is some boon/curse mix from the Nightwatcher, meaning that she/he/it would probably live in this Valley too.

EDIT: Noticed the gender association as 'her' in my post and so changed it to her/him/it because of the gender hiatus issue.

EDIT 2: Made 'those people Szeth said would retrieve his Blade' into 'the Stone Shamans' for clarity.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Odium's_Shard

[Triasmus]

Szeth said that the Stone Shamans would retrieve his Blade if he died.

[Odium's_Shard]

I will edit that in to add clarity.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Me, I think The Shard of Honor is free now (unheld). For all we know, the face in the storm may just be another rider (possibly Jezrien). I also think that Jasnah is Smokestone, sharing one Surge with Kaladin (Sapphire) (probably Pressure), and one with Shallan(garnet) (transformation). In addition, I think that Jasnah is Dustbringer. Just IMO, of course.

A friend of mine agrees that the Dustbringers are Order 2 and share Pressure with the Windrunners. He also thinks the second Dustbringer surge is Heat, which fits with the third Order's focus on fire.