Koloss-Blooded Connection to Ruin vs Preservation

[Trusk'our he/him]

I've been thinking about Koloss-blooded a lot more recently, and I had another thought regarding them; most humans on Scadrial have a greater amount of Preservation than Ruin, hence the reason Allomancy pops up occasionally. But what about Koloss-blooded? They were born of Koloss after all- creatures that have a stronger Connection to Ruin.

So, would a Koloss-blooded have a larger amount of Ruin than Preservation inside them? Could Koloss-blooded Allomancers draw from Ruin instead of Preservation? And what about Hemalurgy? Could they bear more spikes than most because their Spiritweb wouldn't reject a higher level of spikes due to not having more Preservation present to suppress their Ruin (that's a guess, not a fact btw)?

What are all of your guy's thoughts on this? I'd love to hear.

[Atlas333]

I think it's an interesting theory, and I want it to be true.

I think they could technically hold more spikes, or maybe more accurately, they can hold the same number but not suffer as many side effects (didn't Harmony place a hard limit of 4 spikes max per person? I feel like I read that at some point).

As for drawing on Ruin, we don't really know what that would look like. The mists are obviously of preservation, but we don't really have a ruin counterpart to compare to. Also, because allomancy is of preservation, all allomancers draw on preservation's power no matter what. 

So, in short, hemalurgy tolerance is the most likely but we don't have much evidence either way. 

[Voidmaker he/him]

I had a much longer comment shortened out, but I changed my mind on a few things.

1. You can't use Ruin's Investiture to power Preservation's Invested Art without severe trickery or Connection manipulation. They are the most opposite Shards, and making it fuel Allomancy would be repulsive for Ruin's Investiture because of how badly it goes against the Intent. You could most likely do it with another Invested Art or using a different Shard's Investiture, but Ruin hates Preservation and Preservation hates Ruin. They will reject each other when you try to force them together like this. Feruchemy may have more luck, but probably nothing positive will come from it. You might be able to Store faster (Ruining your body quicker, using more of Ruin's Investiture) and maybe Tap quicker (Ruining your body's natural state, using more of Ruin's Investiture, or at least going against Preservation) but that's for things already Ruin-associated and may cause a shorter limit before there's decay as more of Ruin is used. I don't think there'd be a way to make Ruin's Investiture work for Preservation's half of Feruchemy: Keeping the attribute stored safely in a Metalmind. They're far too different to work together.

2. Spike limit is unchangeable. Whether this is assumed or not, Spiking an Allomancer or a Feruchemist over a human will still run into the same limit- even though Preservation would repel Ruin (which you might think would cause more damage) and a Feruchemist has more Ruin involved (which would cause less damage but may be balanced by Preservation) but still, the average human can be spiked of natural attributes and would hit the same spike limit. There may be ways to hit the spike limit sooner than others or by using more dangerous attributes, but even humans off-world would be affected by the same spike limit before becoming a Hemalurgic Construct- even on that one super-invested planet full of super-invested people (I'll figure out spoiler thingies later so this vague description will have to do).

Ruin's Investiture can probably be used to infiltrate and be used for other Invested Arts with strange effects, either desirable or undesirable, but cannot be forced into something as unwilling to cooperate as Preservation's Allomancy or Preservation's half of Feruchemy. Hemalurgy is universal, so the spike limit is similarly universal, no matter the orientation (or lack) of investiture inside a being. Keep in mind, I'm pretty sure point 2 was never officially proven, but I believe it to be the consensus we have run with as it seems to have acted in such a way.

Also, AFAIK Allomancy pops up in genetics because.. genetics. Not at random or because of Preservation's Investiture directly, the original Allomancers took a Lerasium bead, and from there Allomancy lines spread. And on that point, I thought Preservation/Ruin was balanced in all humans. Otherwise, there'd be a lot less violence and a lot more protection among Scadrians. I'm welcome for correction on any of these points, by the way.

[Grubfriend He/Him]

3 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

hard limit of 4 spikes max per person

4 is the number of spikes before a person can be taken control of

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I've been thinking about Koloss-blooded a lot more recently, and I had another thought regarding them; most humans on Scadrial have a greater amount of Preservation than Ruin, hence the reason Allomancy pops up occasionally. But what about Koloss-blooded? They were born of Koloss after all- creatures that have a stronger Connection to Ruin.

So, would a Koloss-blooded have a larger amount of Ruin than Preservation inside them? Could Koloss-blooded Allomancers draw from Ruin instead of Preservation? And what about Hemalurgy? Could they bear more spikes than most because their Spiritweb wouldn't reject a higher level of spikes due to not having more Preservation present to suppress their Ruin (that's a guess, not a fact btw)?

What are all of your guy's thoughts on this? I'd love to hear.

I don't think so, Koloss have a stronger connection to Ruin because of spikes, but this isn't something they can pass onto their child. They definitely can't have more spikes than 4 - this limit is because Ruin subservient nature in Harmony, not because individual's nature.

 

3 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

The mists are obviously of preservation, but we don't really have a ruin counterpart to compare to.

The Mists of Era 2 are both of Ruin and Preservation, not always at the same time, sometimes they appear together, sometimes alone. And there were black mist in Era 1, which was of Ruin - they were near the Well. But this is not about it - Allomancy draws directly from Preservation, the question is would Koloss blooded Allomancer draw directly from Ruin - my answer is no, because Allomancy comes from the Connection to Preservation, which they would still need.

Spoiler

Chaos

Do all three Metallic Arts still exist after the events of the book? Are Allomancy and Hemalurgy slightly degenerated now that Ruin and Preservation are dead, or does Allomancy still draw upon Preservation's power (just held with Sazed now)?

Brandon Sanderson

Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all work as they once did. However, now they are more directly affected by the presence or absence of the mists, which will slowly return to the world but not be of the extent they once were. (The mists are now an extent of Sazed's power, and where they roam, he is better able to influence things. There will also be two kinds of mists.) Note that in the future, Feruchemy powers will start to fracture and split, creating Feruchemical "Mistings."

Yes, this means that in the future series, it will be possible for a person to have one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power. It will create for some very interesting mixing of powers.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

Vegasdev

The other lake in Alendi's bumps?

Brandon Sanderson

A manifestation of Ruin's gathered consciousness, much like the dark mists in book two. The lake was still around in Vin's era, but had been moved under ground. (Note that the Well is a very similar manifestation. You've also seen one other manifestation like this....)

[...]

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

3 hours ago, Voidwatcher said:

1. You can't use Ruin's Investiture to power Preservation's Invested Art without severe trickery or Connection manipulation. They are the most opposite Shards, and making it fuel Allomancy would be repulsive for Ruin's Investiture because of how badly it goes against the Inten

Well that's what Atium does. The Metallic Arts came because of interactions of both Ruin and Preservation with each other and Scadrial. Both Shards can do it if they want, and Ruin did it to Marsh at the end of HoA. It's possible that Hemalurgically granted Allomancy already draws from Ruin instead of Preservation:

Spoiler

Czanos

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

Brandon Sanderson

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

Zantis

Let's say Lift received two Hemalurgic spikes: one for Allomantic bendalloy and one for Feruchemical bendalloy. Then she eats a bunch of pancakes, stores the nutrition in a piece of bendalloy, burns it to compound nutrition. Can that nutrition be turned into Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.  Yeah, but remember she didn't have to be-- so basically what that-- Is just a really complicated way for her to turn Allomantic Investiture-- so that it can allocate Allomantic Investiture into Stormlight. That would be a complex method of doing that. Just transferring one type of Investiture into another. It's just basically drawing from Ruin and she is then turning it into Stormlight-ish? It's a complicated thing, but that's basically what happens, just really crazy.

Zantis

Okay, so-- but it is the same sort of thing, right? *hesitant nod from Brandon* And--

Brandon Sanderson

I hope that eventually in the cosmere they will find easier ways than that.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

3 hours ago, Voidwatcher said:

Preservation's half of Feruchemy

I don't think there is anything like "Preservation's half of Feruchemy". Feruchemy is a blend of both Ruin and Preservation, and because the whole investiture in metalminds comes from you, not Shards, there would be no effect. 

3 hours ago, Voidwatcher said:

And on that point, I thought Preservation/Ruin was balanced in all humans.

Never. There was always more Preservation in people than Ruin, that's the Preservation's fragment in their soul, that's what gave them sentience. HoA ch 54:

Quote

Preservation's desire to create sentient life was what eventually broke the stalemate. In order to give mankind awareness and independent thought, Preservation knew that he would have to give up part of himself—his own soul—to dwell within mankind. This would leave him just a tiny bit weaker than his opposite, Ruin.
That tiny bit seemed inconsequential, compared with their total vast sums of power. However, over aeons, this tiny flaw would allow Ruin to overcome Preservation, thereby bringing an end to the world.
This, then, was their bargain. Preservation got mankind, the only creations that had more Preservation than Ruin in them, rather than a balance. Independent life that could think and feel. In exchange, Ruin was given a promise—and proof—that he could bring an end to all they had created together. It was the pact.
And Preservation eventually broke it.

But if you're talking about Preservation's fragment being equal in all humans, that also isn't likely to be the case - Mistsnapping awakens the weaker people to mistings, but this never was equal in everybody, even before Rashek Ascension.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Sliding Scale of Allomantic Potential

Noblemen, despite what Spook says in this chapter, are not immune to the mistsickness. The rumor Spook is referencing does have merit, however. You see, since the mists are Snapping people and awakening the Allomantic potential within them, it will affect far fewer noblemen than skaa. Why? Because a lot of the noblemen have already Snapped. They were beaten as children to bring out the powers.

However, that won't stop all of them from being affected by the mistsickness, because the mistsickness is also awakening Allomantic potential that would otherwise be too subtle to be brought out. Pretend there's a sliding scale of Allomantic potential. 100% means you're an Allomancer—in this series, only two people have hit 100%—Vin and Elend. Buried within a lot of people, however, is enough of a touch of Preservation's power to hit, say, 50% on the relative scale of Allomantic power. These people, when beaten and made to pass through something traumatic, awaken to their Allomantic abilities.

There are a lot of people out there, however, with something more like 20% to 30%. These are the people the mists are Snapping—since the mists are, themselves, partially the power of Preservation, they can touch people and increase their Allomantic potential slightly and then bring it to the forefront.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Dec. 29, 2009)

 

31 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

4 is the number of spikes before a person can be taken control of

Yes, and also the maximum number of spikes a person can take before their soul starts rejecting new ones. This is because Ruin no longer pushes so hard on the fabric of Cosmere and is subservient to Preservation in Harmony now.  TLM Ars Arcanum:

Quote

Modern souls, however, seem to simply reject spikes of this magnitude. Further research is required, but I believe that this has something to do with the nature of Ruin’s subservience to Preservation in the current dual vessel known as Harmony. The level of corruption of a soul that was possible in ancient days is no longer viable; if too many spikes are added, souls stop gaining powers. Marsh doesn’t think this is a conscious decision on Harmony’s part.
Indeed, I think this is beyond the conscious abilities of even a Shard. Instead, I believe this is the nature of souls (read: the Invested portion of a person’s nature) and their balance with the cosmere. In the ancient days, Ruin was pushing hard on the fabric of Scadrial, leaking into spirit- webs through any method possible. Causing souls to decay faster, to accept more spikes than they should have been able to, and leaving the resulting person burdened beyond what was reasonable.
At any rate, the end result is a limit on the number of spikes a person can hold without external intervention.

 

[Voidmaker he/him]

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Well that's what Atium does. The Metallic Arts came because of interactions of both Ruin and Preservation with each other and Scadrial. Both Shards can do it if they want, and Ruin did it to Marsh at the end of HoA. It's possible that Hemalurgically granted Allomancy already draws from Ruin instead of Preservation:

Huh. Good to know, thanks.

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think there is anything like "Preservation's half of Feruchemy". Feruchemy is a blend of both Ruin and Preservation, and because the whole investiture in metalminds comes from you, not Shards, there would be no effect. 

I meant more-so Intent-wise, as a theoretical (if outside Investiture from Preservation/Ruin could affect Feruchemy, what could it affect and how kinda thing). They definitely are a proper blend and you can't separate the halves outright.

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Never. There was always more Preservation in people than Ruin, that's the Preservation's fragment in their soul, that's what gave them sentience. HoA ch 54:

But if you're talking about Preservation's fragment being equal in all humans, that also isn't likely to be the case - Mistsnapping awakens the weaker people to mistings, but this never was equal in everybody, even before Rashek Ascension.

I meant the first, but it's good to have answers for both. I'll see if I can do a series reread for Mistborn sometime soon, I could use a refresher.
Thanks for the corrections!

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Voidwatcher said:

if outside Investiture from Preservation/Ruin could affect Feruchemy, what could it affect and how kinda thing

That directly gives you attributes. That's how compounding works, it gives you attributes from an outside source instead of your body - Preservation.

Shardic intent in Matellic arts manifests not as directly as you would expect it. It's influencing the way the power is obtained - Allomancy is end-positive (power gained from the outside source), Hemalurgy is end-negative (power is lost) and Feruchemy is a blend off those two, end-neutral (power isn't gained or lost):

Spoiler

Chaos

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

 

[Voidmaker he/him]

43 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That directly gives you attributes. That's how compounding works, it gives you attributes from an outside source instead of your body - Preservation.

Shardic intent in Matellic arts manifests not as directly as you would expect it. It's influencing the way the power is obtained - Allomancy is end-positive (power gained from the outside source), Hemalurgy is end-negative (power is lost) and Feruchemy is a blend off those two, end-neutral (power isn't gained or lost):

  Reveal hidden contents

Chaos

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

 

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I somehow completely forgot about compounding. Thanks!