Nature of Allomancy

[Turos]

1. Ever wondered what would happen if two people in a fight burned atium and one of them closed their eyes?

2. What about an Iron or Steel misting targeting electrified metal?

3. What if an Inquisitor's spikes become electrically charged? Do they become altered or strengthened/weakened?

4. Does the temperature of ingested metal affect Allomancy? (Or worn metal for Feruchemy's sake?)

5. Is there a way to focus really hard on a piece of Steel and burn out the Iron in it, leaving plain carbon in your gut?

6. Can molten metal be affected by Allomancy? If so, how would it react?

7. If I melted the end of a piece of steel to the end of a piece of copper, would Iron and Steel burners see two blue lines from the fused result?

Who knows...

Edited December 24, 2011 by Turos

[Zas678]

Okay, lets tackle this,

1. Well atium is more of a cognitive sight (like Iron/Steel) than a physical sight. You can see this because Inquisitors can burn atium just fine.

2. Nothing (I think). They can still push off of it just fine.

3. Nothing (I think). Unless electricity exists in the spiritual or cognitive realm, where it seems the Feruchemal stores are kept.

4. I don't think so (other than it would probably hurt- a lot). For the second, we see that Sazed uses some old metals for his Kandra prison escape.

5. I don't think so. It seems like you can only burn the metal that's in your stomach. You can't decide to just burn one of two metals that's alloyed together. Like Wax says: When you alloy two metals together, you don't just get a combination of the two metals; you get an entirely new metal.

6. I'd guess that you can Push and Pull on molten metals just as easily as you can normal metals. The molecular structure is the same after all.

7. I'm... not sure. My guess would be that your body would still register it as one piece of metal. Unless you're a constant burner (like Spook in the last book), like the Inquisitors are. The Inquisitors can see metal in everything, and can see the colors that are in everything. That means that they can tell really well the differences in metal concentrations.

[Turos]

1. Very good point!

3. Ah, ok, don't know much bout those factors in the cosmere. Makes sense to me.

2. Well, pushing and pulling seem tied right into the physical realm. I suppose being electrically charged doesn't really change the electron count so much as it simply excites them, from what I understand. That said, I agree.

4. Ha ha, sorry, ya I meant temperature change in metal worn by the feruchemist as well, not the actual wear-and-tear of the metal. My bad for vague wording xD This ties along with the whole electric charge idea really. I guess I'm actually curious about the physical variances of metal having an effect on allomancy or not.

5. I suppose none of them are ever shown thinking about this. I got the idea from the fact that heating up a piece of steel, like in a forge for blacksmithing, for an excessive length of time can cause the steel to shed the carbon and return to being iron. The other half of my reasoning ties directly to Marsh's ability to look deeper into the allomantic vibrations to specify which metals were being used, and Vin's enhanced seeking able to detect through clouds.

Hmm, here's a thought on why it doesn't work. The mistborn trilogy mentions having to get alloys mixed exactly right. If that is the case, then they apparently can not overcome foul alloys by burning select traces in it.

6. I figured the same as well. What gets me curious is based on my perception of push/pull mechanics. It all is based on the pusher/puller's center of gravity. Would that not be the same for the pushed/pulled metal? It's center of gravity should also be the counter point, I assume. If that's true, then one could not choose to pull on the end of a solid metal pole, but have to deal with the center of its mass. Makes things tricky. Also, if this is true, it would seem to be very difficult to determine the outcome of pulling/pushing liquid metal as the mass could easily break apart, changing the center of gravity of what remains. I also assume that the push/pull would choose to focus only on the largest chunk of what breaks apart. Maybe that's false, however, and the line would instead split into several lines, one per blob.

This second idea actually seems more likely to me, as a mistborn could push or pull multiple objects about at once. That being my current rationale, I believe the blobs would naturally reduce to a proper size to be maintained easily by their unique liquid surface tension. 'Course, this all fluctuates as the liquid cools down unevenly.

7. I see what you mean about the Inquisitors' ability to see form from the blue lines. It makes sense that a degree of focus or ability would be necessary to distinguish the separation between tightly fused metals, but how tight must that fusion be for the detection to blend to a single piece of metal from the point of view of an average misting of different periods of time. Can't really explain this one with what we got so far, leastwise from what I have recognized.

Thanks for sharing your insight, Zas! Always fun to debate useless info xD

EDIT: Ooo! What about how Vin could target spots on TLR's tower to push/pull on? I guess it was made of multiple plates of metal though, at least that's most likely...

Edited December 24, 2011 by Turos

[ulyssessword]

6. Kelsier pushed/pulled on multiple points on the same piece of metal when he spun the meta bar(s) in front of the archers at the end of the first book. It is not simply to the centre of mass of the targeted metal, at least not necessarily.

[Musicspren]

I think that this should address number 6. It's not perfectly canon, as it was deleted, but I'm guessing it still applies:

"That's not water," Elend said slowly.

Vin nodded. The lake rippled slowly in the wind, though at these temperatures, water would have been frozen. It was also the wrong color: a deep, ashen black that reflected the light of a sinking sun. "It's metal," she whispered.

Elend frowned. "Liquid metal?"

Vin nodded. "I can see it, with iron. Blue lines, streaking out to it. [...] "

Note that lines is plural, so she could presumably pull/push on different points of the metal (not just its center of mass). I wonder if that's the way with all pieces of metal; the book describes thicker lines for larger sources, but what if those are actually collections of small lines to individual points on the piece of metal, bundled so closely together that they form a single meta-line?

[Turos]

6. Kelsier pushed/pulled on multiple points on the same piece of metal when he spun the meta bar(s) in front of the archers at the end of the first book. It is not simply to the centre of mass of the targeted metal, at least not necessarily.

Ah, nice! I really need to reread Mistborn xD

Note that lines is plural, so she could presumably pull/push on different points of the metal (not just its center of mass). I wonder if that's the way with all pieces of metal; the book describes thicker lines for larger sources, but what if those are actually collections of small lines to individual points on the piece of metal, bundled so closely together that they form a single meta-line?

So then, maybe it is a deal with concentration? The more concentrated the metal, the more concentration needed to see the various lines, perhaps? Hence why Inquisitors can see the lines so spread out all of the time, due to their advanced metal sense?

[Odium's_Shard]

A big question that I want definitively answered is:

1) Does anybody know all the affects of duralumin on all of the basic and higher metals (not the God Metals), such as cadium, bendalloy, gold, chronium, etc. because for things like chronium (dissipates all currently burned metals in another person, interesting ability) there seems to either be an ON or OFF, ie, burning it a tiny bit seems to have the same effectiveness as burning it all at once.

2) Does anybody know ANYTHING about what Lerasium does if burned and not just ingested. Could there be a Lerasium Mistings, like the Seer is for Atium? And here's my point: if simply ingesting the lerasium bead made Elend a Mistborn in tWoA, then surely it was still in his stomach, waiting to be burned by a Mistborn with all the abilities, or just a Lerasium Misting, of which he was the former, then isn't it possible he could have burned it, or at least had the possibility to (if so its a real shame he didn't)?

3) And finally the effect of duralumin on lerasium, and any alloys thereof. We saw Elend use duralumin on atium just before his death, and I think Brandon explained that this allowed him to see ALL of the future, not just a few seconds of it, and expanded his mind to be able to understand it, at which point he realised Preservation's plan and allowed himself to be killed so that Vin would tackle Ati and allow Sazed, the Hero of Ages, to pick up the Shards of Preservation and Ruin... but what of Lerasium?

[Quantum Toast]

2) Does anybody know ANYTHING about what Lerasium does if burned and not just ingested. Could there be a Lerasium Mistings, like the Seer is for Atium? And here's my point: if simply ingesting the lerasium bead made Elend a Mistborn in tWoA, then surely it was still in his stomach, waiting to be burned by a Mistborn with all the abilities, or just a Lerasium Misting, of which he was the former, then isn't it possible he could have burned it, or at least had the possibility to (if so its a real shame he didn't)?

I'd guess that burning Lerasium just works as a substitute for burning any other metal, pretty much the same as Vin using the mists. And it mirrors Atium being the "steal anything" metal in Hemalurgy.

[Chaos]

I'll talk a bit about burning lerasium (note that lerasium, like atium, is not capitalized, but that's beside the point). So, if you are already Mistborn, it enhances your Allomancy. There you go.

But. Brandon told me that lerasium effectively overwrites your Spiritual DNA. There are ways to do some interesting things if you take particular precautions. So, if a Surgebinder ate lerasium, he would become Mistborn, unless he took some special steps in doing so.

[Odium's_Shard]

Interesting. So like how Elend became a far more powerful Mistborn because of the sheer concentration of the Shard Preservation's power was written onto his sDNA? Whereas Vin's was strong enough to become Mistborn, it had been diluted by generations? And so burning it would increase your link to Preservation..

However, wouldn't atium thereby increase your link to Ruin? Instead of seeing the future. Or is seeing the future the best way to Ruin it?

[Chaos]

Interesting. So like how Elend became a far more powerful Mistborn because of the sheer concentration of the Shard Preservation's power was written onto his sDNA? Whereas Vin's was strong enough to become Mistborn, it had been diluted by generations? And so burning it would increase your link to Preservation..

However, wouldn't atium thereby increase your link to Ruin? Instead of seeing the future. Or is seeing the future the best way to Ruin it?

Right. So if Vin had lerasium, her power would increase.

That atium question is definitely an important one. I'm pretty sure someone asked Brandon if atium had a side effect, like lerasium giving Allomancy is a "side effect", and that was RAFO'd hard. I personally think that there's something that atium does that we haven't discovered yet. What that could be is the million dollar question.

[Odium's_Shard]

I presume whenever Brandon RAFOs a definitive question (like explicitly mentioning if atium had a side effect similar to lerasium) then we've hit to close to the nail.

Or he hasn't quite thought about it (in the case of is [was?] Aona's Shard name Devotion).

[Musicspren]

That atium question is definitely an important one. I'm pretty sure someone asked Brandon if atium had a side effect, like lerasium giving Allomancy is a "side effect", and that was RAFO'd hard. I personally think that there's something that atium does that we haven't discovered yet. What that could be is the million dollar question.

Actually, a bit of atium's effects could be "side effects." You could say that the "primary" effect is that it allows you to see the future, but it also improves your mind's capacity to process that information, and possibly improves your body's ability to respond.

An idea on lerasium's non-side effect ability: what if it makes you age slowly (say 1/8^th or 1/16^th speed). This would help explain TLR's immortality (whichever theory you follow, it's a lot easier to explain if he never truly has to be over a millennium old). We would not have seen this effect with Elend, because he lived only about two years after having the lerasium. The original allomancers would present a problem, but just because it makes you not age does not mean you can't be killed by other nobles (or inquisitors). And one thing we learned a lot from the trilogy is that you can't trust the legends, so those original allomancers may not be what we think they were. (Also, if Hoid took a bead, that could keep him alive longer).

[Odium's_Shard]

TLR's immortality was due to atium's Feruchemical effects, namely storing age. That's why he sat in that weird room filled with memorabilia (which coincidentally was over the WoA, which is where the lerasium was...) for a while to be old for a bit. But perhaps you're right, and that would explain all of the cracked pottery indicating used lerasium... It could be a bit of both. But that would make for an extremely expensive anti-aging cream.

How does Lerasium regenerate? Atium does it in the Pits of Hathsin. Where is lerasium's deposits?

[Musicspren]

TLR's immortality was due to atium's Feruchemical effects, namely storing age.

I know that was the main way, I'm just saying that it could have made his "natural" age less than it otherwise would have been. He still could have been too old to live without Compounding, but not as old as a normal person would have been without Compounding.

That's why he sat in that weird room filled with memorabilia (which coincidentally was over the WoA, which is where the lerasium was...) for a while to be old for a bit.

Which is actually quite strange, because with the standard theory, being old should have been as unnecessary for TLR as being unhealthy was for Miles.

How does Lerasium regenerate? Atium does it in the Pits of Hathsin. Where is lerasium's deposits?

The other pole, perhaps? We know both the Well stayed attached to the pole, and we know that Alendi et al. found a black pool that sounds like a Well of Ruin (which may have turned into the Pits, but I'm not certain if that's confirmed), which also stayed relatively near the Well of Ascension.

[Odium's_Shard]

In that quoted reference on the BS Commentary page, he mentions that there may be life on the South Pole, and also on other planets in the cosmology surrounding Scadrial, and also that Ruin and Preservation have experience with these peoples. Interesting.

[Windrunner]

That atium question is definitely an important one. I'm pretty sure someone asked Brandon if atium had a side effect, like lerasium giving Allomancy is a "side effect", and that was RAFO'd hard. I personally think that there's something that atium does that we haven't discovered yet. What that could be is the million dollar question.

I posted my random theory on this in another thread, but since it's being discussed here as well I thought I'd say it again. I think that atium's side affect is that when you burn it, it recharges the Hemalurgic spikes in your body, reversing any decay they've experienced. It would explain why Vin's earring was always strong enough to pierce copperclouds, even though she removed it so often before and during the books. My other idea is that it increases the piece of Ruin inside you, which could do some freaky, stuff I think.

[Odium's_Shard]

I posted my random theory on this in another thread, but since it's being discussed here as well I thought I'd say it again. I think that atium's side affect is that when you burn it, it recharges the Hemalurgic spikes in your body, reversing any decay they've experienced. It would explain why Vin's earring was always strong enough to pierce copperclouds, even though she removed it so often before and during the books. My other idea is that it increases the piece of Ruin inside you, which could do some freaky, stuff I think.

What like warp you into something with a personality akin to a Koloss/a rock?

Or an Inquisitor with holes in your mind for Ruin to exploit.

Gargh... the drama!

[Shard of Choice]

How does Lerasium regenerate? Atium does it in the Pits of Hathsin. Where is lerasium's deposits?

I believe it was stated somewhere in the books that Lerasium didn't naturally form, and that Rashek created it by compressing the mists into a solid form.

[Windrunner]

I don't know exactly what increasing the part of Ruin in people would do, but if it balanced the Ruin part I thing you would lose sentience. I like the increasing spikes Hemalurgic charge theory better, it just seems right to me, but atium increasing your connection to Ruin makes more sense, as the opposite of lerasium, which increases your connection to Preservation. I might be able to combine them somehow. Could a greater connection to Ruin allow your body to utilize Hemalurgic spikes more efficiently? I don't know, it would help if we knew lerasium's Hemalurgic function, but I am virtually certain it's RAFO.

I'm also pretty sure that it didn't say Rashek made lerasium in the book. If I'm remembering correctly that metal was rarely mentioned after Elend used it, and I don't think lerasium is actually called that in the books. I saw those clay tablets lerasium was in as being where it condenses, like the crystals atium appears in. Hopefully they will regrow or something, like the broken crystals will.

[Odium's_Shard]

One can only hope...

However, your theory about the recharging Hemalurgic spikes in your body couldn't work because there is so little decay while they are in your body that it would take a long time to see any noticeable diminishing. At which point, the construct would just slay another Allomancer/Feruchemist and create another spike.

However, I can see why this wouldn't work for Inquisitors.. and they do live for a long time, enough for decay to be a problem... And I guess you couldn't remove the spikes, because when Marsh did it to disable the Inquisitors while Vin was fighting TLR, they all.. I'd say died, but you can't really classify a rough human form with two spikes sticking out of its eyes and multiple more out of its torso living.

So the atium would be handy. Would this side effect ever diminish? For example, if Elend spat the lerasium bead back out (if that was physically possible), could another person (ew) eat it again and get the same effect? So if an Inquisitor got an atium spike, would this count as being eligible for the side-effect? And forever?

If so thats damnation useful.

[Windrunner]

There doesn't need to be decay if they're in your body. I'm talking about if you take your spike our regularly (Vin's earring) or if you received a spike that had already diminished in power, like the one that Marsh used on Penrod. Then it would be really useful, especially if it was a spike containing a rare power. I don't think Elend could spit lerasium back up, his body is actually burning it so there's nothing left to spit up.

If this is just a general nature of Allomancy thread, does anyone have any ideas what lerasium alloy would make a Seer misting?

[Turos]

If this is just a general nature of Allomancy thread, does anyone have any ideas what lerasium alloy would make a Seer misting?

I'm gonna guess Lerasium/Atium. Crazy alloy there though 0.0'

[Odium's_Shard]

Do you mean if they're already a Seer? Or are you asking which Lerasium alloy would make them into one?

If the first, then it would make them additionally whatever alloy it is. For example, Lerasium/Copper on a Seer would presumably make them both a Seer and a Smoker, but not a Mistborn.

If the second, Atium/Lerasium would be needed to make a Seer misting (unless Atium is special in this regard, as it is almost any other regard).

[Windrunner]

I was talking about what Lerasium alloy would make a regular person into a Seer like Demoux. I've heard the Atium, Lerasium alloy theory before, but I agree with what Zas said in a different thread, that would probably make them into a Feurchemist. In a related note how would Feruchemists, and Ferrings be made at all? If the Lerasium Atium alloy is the answer to the Full Feruchemist question I guess it would mean that any metal alloyed with Leratium could be burned to make a Ferring. (see what I did there? Nice combo word, but it looks a lot like Lerasium if you aren't paying attention. Sazedium might be better) That leaves the same how to make Atium Ferring question though, not to mention Lerasium Ferrings. Maybe an alloy with different proportions?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Windrunner