Question about one of the forum rules

[Firesong she/her]

I have a question about the rules regarding profanity, and that is about what is considered to fall under that and why. 

I had a bot erased for a censored use of the s-word (no, I was not trying to avoid the bot, I just censor my own profanity, I am weird like that. Was quite annoying that the bot edited my post with public liable based on a bad-faith assumption, though), which I assumed was okay due to the fact that Brandon uses it in his own books, which led me to question the exact reasons behind what the rule covers as the books we discuss here contain that word. I would perfectly understand for stronger words that Brandon avoids, just not ones that the books use. 

I am assuming it is due to a slippery slope? You want to avoid an onslaught of very strong profanity, but to make exceptions like that would lead to making a bunch of arbitrary decisions that are difficult to reasonably justify? (I am assuming it is just this, which I thought of just right now, but still going to ask anyway for confirmation)

Note: I am not going to flip out if I have to continue following the rule (I know I will have to, this one post definitely won't change forum policy), I will follow it gladly. I am just wondering about the reasoning in that context. Also, I suggest addition of the rule on profanity be included on the forum, as it claims that only the Discord has this rule, despite this happening to me on the Forum. Actually, I found it, and it is only in the Code of Conduct section and not in the Policies section, and the Policies section only mentions profanity in regards to Discord, I recommend you make an edit that makes the forum rules more clear. 

I apologize if this comes across as overly hostile, I am simply trying to ask a question regarding the rules. 

[Chaos he/him]

Policies are additional rules outside of the Code of Conduct. The Code of Conduct clearly states "Swearing will be filtered on the forums and automatically deleted on Discord. Intentionally trying to circumnavigate the swear filters in place will lead to moderation. In-world swearing from Brandon novels are fine."

I will say, this is subject to change. There are certain swears that if they existed we may not allow. If Brandon puts f-bombs, that would probably still not be permitted.

All swear filters are somewhat arbitrary. We try to have a balance between a clean environment and one that is not too onerous. You may disagree with the line there. Everyone tends to. There are people who want any use of "damn" or the Lord's name in vain censored. The balance point is hard.

As for the word in question, I think that one just had not been removed from the forum word filter. All this stuff is manual.

Edit: On recollection, I don't think the word you used was used in the books, so I think that's fair to have it filtered.

We prefer the software editing things, as opposed to Discord which just instant deletes the contents. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Chaos

[Firesong she/her]

14 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Policies are additional rules outside of the Code of Conduct. The Code of Conduct clearly states "Swearing will be filtered on the forums and automatically deleted on Discord. Intentionally trying to circumnavigate the swear filters in place will lead to moderation. In-world swearing from Brandon novels are fine."

I will say, this is subject to change. There are certain swears that if they existed we may not allow. If Brandon puts f-bombs, that would probably still not be permitted.

All swear filters are somewhat arbitrary. We try to have a balance between a clean environment and one that is not too onerous. You may disagree with the line there. Everyone tends to. There are people who want any use of "damn" or the Lord's name in vain censored. The balance point is hard.

As for the word in question, I think that one just had not been removed from the forum word filter. All this stuff is manual.

Understandable. And yeah, technically all swear filters are arbitrary. As meaning in language itself is arbitrary, why is it blue and not tobuk, and why does it describe what it does? So yeah, it ultimately is all arbitrary anyway. Same goes for the strength of swears. 

And yeah, I wouldn't really have brought it up if it was an f-bomb for instance, as that hasn't yet appeared in the books. I was just a bit confused due to how I feel that what is written in the books should be allowed to be written here (for the most part, obviously some exceptions apply). 

Thanks for responding to my inquiry, it is most appreciated.  

[Chaos he/him]

The s-word you are referring to has not appeared in the text except for in HARRE, which uh, I'm not counting that. And the Original, I think. What are you referring to?

[Firesong she/her]

10 minutes ago, Chaos said:

The s-word you are referring to has not appeared in the text except for in HARRE, which uh, I'm not counting that. And the Original, I think. What are you referring to?

It has appeared in Words of Radiance, Bands of Mourning (I think that is the one), and Frugal Wizard, and also in the SA5 previews. (two of those use the version with an a, so the past tense verb form, but still the same word, essentially) The word I mean can mean poop. (it is hard to explain things without using the word itself, feels weird trying to describe it while dancing around it)

Edited August 9, 2023 by Firesong

[Chaos he/him]

Agreed. Yes, we consider that variant different.

[Firesong she/her]

40 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Agreed. Yes, we consider that variant different.

Why is it considered different? I am genuinely wondering about that, as it is just past-tense, put through an artificial ablaut. I don't see anything that makes it less strong than the present tense. 

Also including the variant with bull or horse? Which are the ones used in Frugal and the previews. 

(feels odd that I am still talking about this even though I don't really mind, but I guess it feels like I am saying more due to forums leading to just less posts as it takes longer to communicate. Just hope I am not looking like I am desperate or anything, as I feel like I am coming across harder or pushier than I intend. Like, ultimately, I don't mind, it is just one word, and a few variants that I have to abstain from, not a big deal at all. Basically said all I needed to say.)

Well, thanks again @Chaos for your help. It is, once again, most appreciated. You can close or delete this thread if you have nothing more to add, as I don't really have more either outside of what I already said. 

PS: Also, fun fact, a lot of modern english profanity had the way they are viewed originate in classism and feelings of linguistic supremacy by Norman French invaders and by people who adopted French language and culture. A lot of non-French words were seen as fundamentally lesser and crasser. Not using this as an excuse, btw, just find it an interesting linguistic and historical fact. Showing where the public view on words, beyond their precise denotation, came to form. And like, how so many PG "swears", actually arise from old British minced oaths. Linguistic history is fascinating.  

Edited August 9, 2023 by Firesong

[Chaos he/him]

35 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Also including the variant with bull or horse? Which are the ones used in Frugal and the previews. 

According to my word search in https://www.brandonsanderson.com/first-look-at-secret-project-2/ and Frugal Wizard itself, I cannot corroborate this. I searched bull, horse, your past tense, and the word itself.

The present tense is used more as a swear itself, as the past tense is poop. I couldn't tell you, but we have determined these are different. These lines are all arbitrary and I won't pretend they aren't. I understand if someone disagrees with that judgment.

[Firesong she/her]

33 minutes ago, Chaos said:

According to my word search in https://www.brandonsanderson.com/first-look-at-secret-project-2/ and Frugal Wizard itself, I cannot corroborate this. I searched bull, horse, your past tense, and the word itself.

The present tense is used more as a swear itself, as the past tense is poop. I couldn't tell you, but we have determined these are different. These lines are all arbitrary and I won't pretend they aren't. I understand if someone disagrees with that judgment.

Strange, I found it in my wordsearch, 

Spoiler

Chapter 34 and Page 352, when Runian found out Jen was alive. 

Had to look it up myself to make sure I wasn't going crazy (really though, I am paranoid and doubt myself a lot, so that is the main reason I am still talking about this, want to prove that I did in fact see it). Maybe something wrong with your wordsearch?

Anyway, yeah, it is all arbitrary anyway. As I said not a big deal, and I don't have much to add. Just wanted to point out that it is there. Thank you for your help.  Also, won't be able to answer again for a bit, I am going to sleep shortly. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Firesong

[Chaos he/him]

Ah I guess so. Regardless, yeah, no. Don't do that.

[Firesong she/her]

5 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Ah I guess so. Regardless, yeah, no. Don't do that.

Don't do what? Use those words? If that's what you mean, yeah, alright, I won't. As I said, I don't really mind, as much as I was just asking a question. The main thing that annoyed me was the bot immediately assuming I was trying to avoid the rules and responding by replacing it with text claiming that I was. Wouldn't have minded if not for that.

Anyway, thanks for the help. 

Night. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Firesong

[Chaos he/him]

Those messages perhaps could be adjusted, but that's super low priority. And yes, don't use the words you said there, correct.

[Treamayne]

11 hours ago, Firesong said:

It has appeared in Words of Radiance, Bands of Mourning (I think that is the one), and Frugal Wizard, and also in the SA5 previews. (two of those use the version with an a, so the past tense verb form, but still the same word, essentially) The word I mean can mean poop. (it is hard to explain things without using the word itself, feels weird trying to describe it while dancing around it)

10 hours ago, Chaos said:

According to my word search in https://www.brandonsanderson.com/first-look-at-secret-project-2/ and Frugal Wizard itself, I cannot corroborate this. I searched bull, horse, your past tense, and the word itself.

The present tense is used more as a swear itself, as the past tense is poop. I couldn't tell you, but we have determined these are different. These lines are all arbitrary and I won't pretend they aren't. I understand if someone disagrees with that judgment.

For what its worth, here are the references:

Spoiler

BoM Ch 23 Confirmed non-curse:

Quote

odd place for a sculpture—but then, the ones back in Elendel . . .

WoR Ch 49 Confirmed non-curse:

Quote

 I, Adolin Kholin—cousin to the king, heir to the Kholin princedom—have . . .

Frugal Wizard Ch 34 Confirmed curse:

Quote

Ryan,” I said, “you’d better explain this bull. . . 

 

Not that it matters much, since using Cosmere curses is storming fun.