Is Arangar Homosexual?

[Aeshdan he/him]

Alright. In Towers of Midnight, it is revealed that Ara'ngar, who is a man's soul tranmigrated into a woman's body, is having sex with women. It made me wonder, does that count as homosexuality? Being a Christian, i'm no expert on these things, so I thought i'd ask your opinion.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

It depends on whether Ara'ngar views him/herself as a man or a woman, in my opinion.

[happyman he/him]

It explicitly states in one of the books that Aran'gar's tastes hadn't changed so much as broadened. So she's apparently become bisexual. Given the strong memories from his/her past life, combined with the physical responses from the new body, I'd say she's something of a special case.

[fiveAM he/him]

I always sort of saw it as Arangar sort of finding it as some sort of twisted, sarcastic pleasure. Kind of like, "Yeah, lesbian sex but guess what! i'm actually dude!" So considering that bisexual if anything but i wouldn't really call that homosexual.

[Eerongal he/him]

It explicitly states in one of the books that Aran'gar's tastes hadn't changed so much as broadened. So she's apparently become bisexual. Given the strong memories from his/her past life, combined with the physical responses from the new body, I'd say she's something of a special case.

I'm relatively sure that at some point in time jordan explicitly stated that this was exactly the case, though I'm much too lazy to go looking for the exact quote or anything. So, i suppose that it would depend on if your definition of "homosexual" includes bisexual as one sort of "blanket" term....

edit: there are also some homosexual characters within the wheel of time series, though its not always immediately obvious. There were a couple sea folk who there were a couple "clues" about at one point, that i remember, and i think galina (black ajah aes sedai) is supposed to be. It talks about at one point how galina has always preferred the "companionship" of women to men (that or im confusing her with another red/black)

Also, anytime you hear two women refer to "pillow friends", they're referring to someone they had a homosexual relationship with at one point (though that person may not necessarily be homosexual)

[Aeshdan he/him]

anytime you hear two women refer to "pillow friends", they're referring to someone they had a homosexual relationship with at one point (though that person may not necessarily be homosexual)

Good point, I'd forgotten about that.

[Aeshdan he/him]

BTW, i think you misunderstood a bit what i was asking. I was wondering if the act of having sex with women counted as homosexual sex or not.

[Eerongal he/him]

BTW, i think you misunderstood a bit what i was asking. I was wondering if the act of having sex with women counted as homosexual sex or not.

a women having relations (sex included, among other things) is indeed considered a homosexual act, however, this doesn't necessarily mean the persons involved are actually homosexual. As stated previously, they could be bisexual and enjoy both encounters of a hetero and homo nature. The people involved could also actually be bi-curious. Bi-curious being people who are of one sexual preference (homo or hetero) but has a "curiosity" about the opposite (so a homosexual who has a "curious" nature about heterosexual relations, and or vice versa) that they may or may not act upon to commit said acts to play out/satiate this curiosity. As odd as it may sound, performing a homosexual act doesn't mean that you are actually homosexual.

That being said Aran'gar is a bit of a special case since she is LITERALLY a man in a woman's body. Though, as far as has been stated, s/he is actually now bisexual. Though, in the context of the sex s/he had in ToM, yes, that sex would be considered homosexual. There isn't even a grey area to it IMO like there would be with a man who underwent gender swap surgery and then had relations with a woman. Aran'gar is now female, in every aspect, genetically, physically, and even mentally (as evidenced by the fact that she now ALSO enjoys the company of men, which s/he didn't enjoy in her previous male life). So she is female in every respect, it's just that her previous life and memories of it have "twisted" the standard lusts and desires of her current mind.

[happyman he/him]

Well, I hate to say this, but I'm not actually a big fan of our modern categories in this regard. I view them as primarily political constructs made for very specific political and social reasons. The reason for male/female attraction is obvious (and dominant) and subject to an enormous amount of selection pressure. As soon as you step out of that category, you've gone into a realm where evolution just doesn't care any more (except inasmuch as it detracts from male/female reproductive relations), and so the diversity of possible behavior becomes much more open, so to speak.

[Eerongal he/him]

Well, I hate to say this, but I'm not actually a big fan of our modern categories in this regard. I view them as primarily political constructs made for very specific political and social reasons. The reason for male/female attraction is obvious (and dominant) and subject to an enormous amount of selection pressure. As soon as you step out of that category, you've gone into a realm where evolution just doesn't care any more (except inasmuch as it detracts from male/female reproductive relations), and so the diversity of possible behavior becomes much more open, so to speak.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at here. Are you saying that labels like bi-sexual and homosexual (and like transexual) are basically meaningless because once you step outside of the "reproduction" aspect of sexual behavior what you specifically do has no real repercussions (other than your personal pleasure, of course)?

[Aeshdan he/him]

I don't agree, BTW.

[Eerongal he/him]

I don't agree, BTW.

with....?

[Aeshdan he/him]

You. I think your opinion on this subject is wrong, as I mentioned at the beginning.

Edited December 19, 2011 by ReaderAt2046

[happyman he/him]

Yeah, this is a sensitive subject. I knew that the second I made my post in this thread, and if I were to answer it again I would do it rather differently. I don't think it's appropriate for this forum, and this is my last post in this thread. However, I would ask the person who voted me down for expressing my honest opinion in a rather politically incorrect way to PM me rather than affecting my reputation score. If this forum goes down that road, things are going to become rather nasty.

Edited December 19, 2011 by happyman

[Eerongal he/him]

Yeah, this is a sensitive subject. I knew that the second I made my post in this thread, and if I were to answer it again I would do it rather differently. I don't think it's appropriate for this forum, and this is my last post in this thread. However, I would ask the person who voted me down for expressing my honest opinion in a rather politically incorrect way to PM me rather than affecting my reputation score. If this forum goes down that road, things are going to become rather nasty.

Honestly, i see no harm in discussing it so long as its discussed in an adult manner. If it devolves to arguments, flamewars, and non-PC hate speech it will be closed as appropriate. I think that the community here is mature enough to hold discussions on this particular topic.

As it stands, ive been watching the topic really closely just in case it devolves into something more base to moderate as needed (probably also why i have so many posts in it)

As far as the rep points go, that's kinda what they're there for. If someone says something you dont like, you down vote them, it's certainly within their rights to up/down vote whatever they want (and not something we're going to enforce any "rules" upon for what can and can't be up/down voted).

Down voting someone for expressing their opinion on the subject at hand is kinda, IMO, bad form simply because you disagree with them, but it doesn't make what they have to say "bad", unless the opinion is basically outright hurtful/derogatory, but that's sort of "the risk" you run when posting ANYTHING opinionated on the internet.

You. I think your opinion on this subject is wrong, as I mentioned at the beginning.

Well, you're certainly allowed to disagree, but what do you disagree with specifically? That Aran'gar having relations with women is of a homosexual nature? Or the more general thing i said earlier that woman+woman = homosexual? I'm not going to try to dissuade you, i'm just curious what you disagree with and why (saying "i disagree" gives me little to go on, afterall )

[Yados]

I think the word that everyone here was looking for was "queer", which is a spectrum/umbrella term that encompasses all forms of trans(albeit specifically WoT magical trans) and gay/lesbian/bi/pan/a/demi/(basically anything non-straight) sexuality.

There is a lot of sexual binary going on in this thread. Phrases like "became bi" don't really... eh. That's not worth getting into an argument about. Just...

I should point out that sexuality is more of a spectrum than a binary. Girls don't "experiment" in college. They're just in an environment where the sexual binary isn't rigidly enforced (mostly because it's assumed that this "experimentation" doesn't make them less sexually available to men, thought that's a whole other discussion). Terms like gay and straight and even bi (mostly just in the examples that have been given in this thread) don't really function when we get into these realms-- inherently trans realms.

Answering what appears now to have been the original poster's question: Yes, if two women are having sex, it is homosexual. Homo means "the same." Sex mean "sex." Two women of the same gender (homo) are having sex (sexual)... well, I don't feel I have to go further.

Getting a bit deeper, WoT is pretty unique in that it embraces both reincarnation and the very Christian idea of a gendered soul. Rand and Brigitte keep coming back as the same gender. When they exist outside of the Wheel, they are their respective genders. Male and Female forces drive the world. (Unlike Avatar the Last Airbender where, while Aang is the Avatar, born into each generation, he's sometimes male and sometimes female. There's about to be a whole series about the female reincarnation of the main character (male) of the last series. Gender --and its sexual implication-- is arbitrary.)

Arangar can be thought of as a cis-male (born as a male) trans-woman, who still gender identifies as a man (which really wouldn't happen irl). Thus, his sexual acts with women are not homosexual (because he identifies as a male despite his physical form) but are queer (because of the inherent trans nature of whatever he does).

As evidence, I'll put forward that Arangar still uses the male half of the One Power, even though he is in a female body. Male soul (read gender identity) female physical form.

If he's been having sex with men though, that's probably more 'homosexual' (still also queer). The whole "pillow friends" deal in WoT is straight up gay though (well, in the act, not the sexuality of those performing the act) ... It is also an example of how sexuality functions in a separate, specific culture -- the tower -- where different sexual norms are assumed.

That's my take/conjecture.

I hope that was respectful. I suppose everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of the sexuality of others?

[Mathologist]

In one of her POVs she said that she thinks of herself as a eoman now, so yes.

[Tazren he/him]

And I recall there being a passage where she thought something along the lines of, seeing herself not only as being a woman now, but as always having been a woman, and that this brought about some odd inconsistencies [with her sex life].