Hazekilling

[Kurkistan he/him]

Ultimate anti-tineye weapon: opera singer

More seriously, an exploding bullet would be really good against lurchers. They pull it into their chestplate as usual and BOOOM!!!

AoL Spoilers

Ranette already beat you to it with the exploding bullet.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Deus Ex Biotica]

To be fair, those exploded when Pulled, and so might go off too far away. In a modern era, with the tech to make real exploding bullets that go off upon impact, it becomes a bit nastier.

Uh, as Spook helpfully demonstrated in Hero Of Ages, fire does not work nearly as well on pewter burners as you might expect. Also, I'm pretty sure most designs include metal. And Aluminum and napalm mix burningly, so that's not a terribly helpful option.

Flames rising off of burning wood are one thing, and actually having napalm (2-3 times hotter) on your skin is another. And you'd need some pretty small shavings of aluminum (and iron) to make thermite. I don't deny that getting a working Hazekiller Flamethrower would be hard, though.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Catalyst21 he/him]

We rich noble types need not worry about napalm ruining our nice furniture. We simply buy new stuff.

Any way you slice it, gold compounders are almost as annoying to kill as Wax's ability to shoot Miles' gun away, over and over.

I think the best you can hope for with a gold compounder, unless you've got a battle-axe or something is to neutralize them. I propose the floor-spikes... Sharpened fiberglass or plastic, or aluminum if you're rich like me, set pointing upward in a wide array over a certain area of floor. Activate the reversed polarity electro magnet (now with REPULSING action) to shoot them up through the specially prepared decoy floor, and impale the bloodmaker, hopefully immobilizing him and making it REALLY tough to heal himself, on account of the dirty great spikes poking up through his legs and chest. Gruesome, but effective, with the bonus of being really expensive. Heck, you might even be able to use them for hemalurgy afterward.

Dang it, WHY must everyone INSIST on denying me my flamethrowers? I just wanna have a bit of fun.

Let's not forget their practicality against door-to-door salesmen. It's only a matter of time before they begin corrupting the modernized Scadrial.

Ummmmm... none of those objects are magnetic, so you flip on your electromagnet and ...... nothing happens.

try again...

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Easy enough: have a breakaway ceiling with concealed spikes in it, and repulsing magnet below the floor. Granted, it probably still only works on people with magnetic Metalminds.

I wonder if one could make a magnet, but still allomatically inert, alloy of aluminum...

[Aiken Frost he/him]

Ummmmm... none of those objects are magnetic, so you flip on your electromagnet and ...... nothing happens.

try again...

You don't need magnets to set a spike trap. Pressurized air, coils, animal tendons, rope... Depending on your technology level, one have plenty of alternatives. And even if the spikes per se aren't metallic, only the plate where they are mounted need to be so you can use a magnet to activate it.

Actually, the magnet is the worse alternative. Just make it all of high-impact plastics or ceramics and use pressurized air.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Honestly, much as I love elaborate death traps, I doubt we'll ever get more efficient than Yomen: lure them into a very sturdy room, then seal it off. Even Miles would be neutralized by that. The only problem I forsee is a Strength Compounder, who could have the power to get out, even from the sturdiest room. Really, that would be a nightmare to defend against in general, since as a Thug, they'd also heal fast and be resistant to poisons. For someone like that, I think you're best served dropping them down a pit, then flooding it with water to drown them.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. The pit is not my solution of choice for everyone, because Coinshots are pretty hard to drop, and fairly common.

[IvoryRoad he/him]

DISCLAIMER: The flamethrower suggestion was just a bit tongue-in-cheek. Try not to bite my head off. And the spikes themselves don't need to be magnetic... just the platform they're affixed to. If you wanted them to be useful for hemalurgy, you'd just construct them of the necessary metals (but this would admittedly render them useless against coinshots/lurchers, since they'd easily detect them).

Come on, people. I'm trying to be over-the-top. Stop diffusing me, dangit!

Strength compounders really wouldn't be much trouble, provided you've got a nice marksman like Wax. Shoot him in the brain and drop him quick. Though, it might be difficult to keep your cool while watching a ten-foot-wide hulk lurch through the walls at you.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

DISCLAIMER: The flamethrower suggestion was just a bit tongue-in-cheek. Try not to bite my head off.

That's the problem: it's actually a very useful idea, which is why it was hard to take as a joke. A limited one in many ways, but certainly useful against a wide variety of defenses (just ask Harry Dresden).

Strength compounders really wouldn't be much trouble, provided you've got a nice marksman like Wax. Shoot him in the brain and drop him quick. Though, it might be difficult to keep your cool while watching a ten-foot-wide hulk lurch through the walls at you.

Wax is probably one of the best marksmen in the world (he hit a moving bullet using a handgun!), and even he has some trouble finding clean shots against Tarson - the combination of inhuman speed with the knowledge that if he grabs you once it's all over is potent! And a Compounder could be constantly smashing through walls, or carrying a 10,000 lb piece of metal as a shield/potential projectile, or otherwise making a nuisance of themselves.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. You raise a really good point I had been overlooking with the "10 foot wide" detail, but that's a matter for http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1349-allomatic-thought-experiments/.

[Aeshdan he/him]

To be fair, those exploded when Pulled, and so might go off too far away. In a modern era, with the tech to make real exploding bullets that go off upon impact, it becomes a bit nastier.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

This is what I meant.

[name_here]

I would advise against setting gold compounders on fire. Sure, they'd eventually run out of healing if it could be sustained long enough, but meanwhile you've got a varient on the problem that the only thing worse than a horde of zombies is a horde of burning zombies.

Rundown of my suggestions:

Gold compouders: belt-fed, water-cooled mounted machine gun. They're effectively incapacitated while actively being shot, so if you have enough ammo they'll be stuck until they run out of healing.

Lurchers: They're a fairly minimal threat if there is no metal behind you, so just shoot them a bunch with AP rounds.

Coinshots: Bunch of guys with aluminum or obsidian and something vaugely bullet-proot

Tineyes: They're just relatively normal guys. Shoot them.

Pewterarms: Don't try to get fancy, shoot them a whole lot and don't bother with elaborate poisons they're immune to anyway.

Sliders: Get someone who can take them one-on-one in melee combat. Ideally a pewterarm.

Seers: Calculate how many people they are physically capable of killing in three minutes. Bring more people than that. While Vin's technique might work, if they expect it their future sight will only be partially negated and they will still have enhanced reactions.

Steel compounders: Remotely-detonated explosives

Zinc compounders: Lock them in a room with someone who can break them in half and no other objects.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

other solution to seers, an explosive with a large blast radius, atium only gives you a couple of seconds notice, not enough time to get out of the way of a large explosive.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Wax is probably one of the best marksmen in the world (he hit a moving bullet using a handgun!), and even he has some trouble finding clean shots against Tarson - the combination of inhuman speed with the knowledge that if he grabs you once it's all over is potent!

That was becaus Marasi's head was in the way. There are two or three different spots where you can drop a Pewterarm with a single shot.

[Aeshdan he/him]

Gold compounder: Build a house out in the middle of nowhere with a nuclear bomb hidden under it. Wait till they show up. Get out of there really fast. Blow up nuke. I'm not sure even Miles could stand up to a nuke.

[fyodor]

Honestly, much as I love elaborate death traps, I doubt we'll ever get more efficient than Yomen: lure them into a very sturdy room, then seal it off. Even Miles would be neutralized by that. The only problem I forsee is a Strength Compounder, who could have the power to get out, even from the sturdiest room. Really, that would be a nightmare to defend against in general, since as a Thug, they'd also heal fast and be resistant to poisons. For someone like that, I think you're best served dropping them down a pit, then flooding it with water to drown them.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. The pit is not my solution of choice for everyone, because Coinshots are pretty hard to drop, and fairly common.

It seems that Thugs are more resistant to physical injury but they're not bulletproof. Tarkin is still dropped by a shot to an arm.

I don't know that a thug could handle three or four people filling him with bullets. I think that the main problem is that one-on-one they can stay up long enough to kill you, but it seems that for Thugs the best strategy is to have a group of people shoot them up.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero."

If you know where someone is going to be, and nothing you care about is too close to it, a sufficiently deadly explosion could vaporize even a Gold Compounder. There's no question of that. Defensively, the problem with most Mistings (especially things like Mistborn, Coinshot Twinborn, and Keepers) is the extra ways they move, and the difficulty defending against all those possibilities. This becomes a real nightmare if you're facing a team of them.

Offensively, it's even tougher, since you're trying to catch them somewhere you might not have all your fancy aluminum toys.

Therefore, the core of my Scadrial defenses is a facade. Maintain a manor in Elendel, and set some baseline defensive efforts (guards, minimal metal on the perimeter, etc.), but nothing impenetrable. Come and go regularly from this residence... but don't actually stay there. Instead, do things Set-style with tunnels under the building, and come and go through those. With any luck, an attack will miss your real hideout, while revealing your enemies' abilities. Without that much luck, they will find the tunnel, and a lone guard at the far end will seal both ends off with massive stone doors. Have three such tunnels, each only able to be sealed/unsealed from the inside, and all watched constantly, so that even if you have someone trapped, you may still come and go at will.

For defense while walking around, I am tempted to say "have a couple of badass bodyguards," but the goal here is to find ways of fighting Mistings/Ferrings which are both practical and require no magic of your own. The best bodyguards, then, are not simply strong men with dueling canes (and, if appropriate, aluminum guns) who are used to fighting Allomancers. The best guard is one who excels in rapidly changing the landscape of the fight. As observed before, the best weapon against Allomancy is the unexpected - have people with a lot of tricks for making loud noises, sticky or slippery surfaces, moving around, using lassos or harpoons to tie things to their foe, etc. A given trick might not be deeply effective against a given foe, but the simple mental effort of realizing what it is should keep them off-balance, giving enemies a chance.

One more piece of tactical advice: if you are ambushed by an unknown magic-using enemy indoors, immediately head outside, and vice-versa. Range is everything in an Allomantic fight - Coinshots are deadliest when they can stay away from you, while Thugs are a nightmare up close. Trust your enemy to know their best range... and do not let them have it.

Hunting an Allomancer is primarily a matter of bait. Almost any combat Allomancer can either outrun you, or stay away from you indefinitely. If you manage to lure them in in "neutral territory," (say, a narrow alley, or an abandoned building), you probably have not managed to rig up sealable rooms, or mounted rotary guns (if you can lure them into a trap that deadly, congratulations! Just don't get complacent), so you need a concealable and man-portable weapon. I recommend crossbows with non-metal lances (coated in a sticky substance), attached to the strongest non-metallic tether available (is there silk in Scadrial? Hemp? Eventually, there will probably be strong plastics...). Almost any kind of Allomancer is at a huge disadvantage when tied down - even a Thug will be impeded. Three to five people armed with such weapons give good odds of scoring at least a hit or two (and, even if the foe uses something as a shield or wears armor, the adhesive will give them a few problems), while another 2-4 members of the team are given more conventional weaponry (dueling canes, obsidian throwing knives, bows, etc.) to use quickly on the target while they are dealing with the grapples. Ideally, each squad member is trained with each weapon, so that if the initial burst of grapples only scores limited hits, the two teams can switch roles (since reloading the grapples described would be highly difficult). It goes without saying that these people should drill as a squad, and wear the best non-metal armor available.

One final note: if you expect several Allomantic or Feruchemical enemies, use the least flashy methods you can, fight at night or in hidden spaces, and do everything you can to obscure knowledge of your victory. Explosions, rotary guns, flamethrowers, and so on may be effective, but even they become increasingly ineffective as people learn to expect them. The great weakness of your enemy is that they have a very specific set of abilities to utilize, and must learn how to apply them to each situation - never let them be prepared for you. This goes both ways: if attacked by unknown enemies, work to expose their specific abilities, to have an edge later.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Musicspren he/him]

"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero."

Upvote for OotS reference.

One thought (impractical at the moment, but...): Spikes. You could even defeat a gold compounder if you could spike one of his gold abilities away. If you took away allomantic gold, he would survive for a while, but would eventually run out of stored gold and be as vulnerable as Wayne. If you removed feruchemical gold, he wouldn't be able to heal. In AofL times, there is exactly one person (or, if you prefer, inquisitor) alive who knows how to do that, but it is theoretically possible.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

that's assuming it doesn't simply kill them outright.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Hemalurgy is terrifying, no doubt, but unless you're Ruin, managing to hit a bind point in combat seems rather difficult to me - though I guess it can't be any harder than shooting a bullet in midair.

Man. An expert Hemalurgist Coinshot could be pretty terrifying, nailing people's Bind Points with spikes from a long way off. And, of course, any Hemalurgist could easily become a Coinshot. shudder/i]

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Eric]

It doesn't matter if you hit a Bind point, does it? The spike to steal powers goes through the heart, so as long as you target that, you're good. You only need to bind points to grant the powers with the spikes. Granted, stealing away their own ability mid-combat is pretty darn awesome, but not necessary.

[name_here]

I'm thinking there's more to Hemalurgy than sticking metal through someone's heart. At the very least, I suspect that if all you do is stab someone with a spike, charging it requires them to also die. Maybe you can get around that by setting things up properly.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Regarding placement:

Placing a Hemalurgic spike is a very delicate and specific art. Imagine there being a different overlay on a human body, like a new network of nerves, representing lines, points, and 'veins' of the soul's spiritual makeup.

What is happening with Hemalurgy, essentially, is that you're driving a spike through a specific point on a person's body and ripping off a piece of their soul. It sticks to the spike on the Spiritual Realm. Then, you place that spike on someone else in a specific place (not exactly the same place, but on the right spiritual pressure point) and 'hot wire' the spirit to give it Hemalurgy or Feruchemy. It's like you're fooling the spiritual DNA, creating a work-around. Or, in some cases, changing the spirit to look like something else, which has the immediate effect of distorting the body and transforming it into a new creature.

So, even for stealing, you need fairly exact placement. It's not impossible, though - the Koloss figured out how to do it, and Sazed implies that wasn't just Ruin making them.

I seem to recall a statement to the effect that you'd do have to die when Hemalurgy steals your powers, but you'll be weak and sickly if you live. I cannot find this statement, though.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

Regarding placement:

So, even for stealing, you need fairly exact placement. It's not impossible, though - the Koloss figured out how to do it, and Sazed implies that wasn't just Ruin making them.

I seem to recall a statement to the effect that you'd do have to die when Hemalurgy steals your powers, but you'll be weak and sickly if you live. I cannot find this statement, though.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

The Koloss didn't figure out how to make new spikes - they just reused the old ones from dead Koloss.

[discipleofhoid he/him]

The Koloss didn't figure out how to make new spikes - they just reused the old ones from dead Koloss.

No but they did figure out where to place them in humans to make new koloss. And weren't they recharging the spikes - If I remember right when Human shows them how he puts one guy on top of the other to drive the spike through both of them no? So that would mean they were recharging the spike.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

No but they did figure out where to place them in humans to make new koloss. And weren't they recharging the spikes - If I remember right when Human shows them how he puts one guy on top of the other to drive the spike through both of them no? So that would mean they were recharging the spike.

Correct on both counts.

[Paranoid King he/him]

If you could make a gun somehow cooled very efficiently, you could shoot hollowed bullets stuffed with FOOF. Very dangerous. I'm not sure even a gold compounder could stand against that for long.