Sadaes

[hoser he/him]

Nale got an execution warrant for a thief, so I definitely think he was able to legally kill Ym. Rosharan law is pretty... medieval.

We don't know how he got that execution warrant.  It could be through bribery, intimidation or forgery.  Execution for theft is quite surprising and Nale resorts to intimidation to take Lift. 

he certainly wasn't killing Sadeas out of a desire to uphold the law

Exactly as Nale was not persecuting Lift and Ym out of a desire to uphold the law, but rather to keep them from surgebinding. Surgebinding is not a crime.

Nale is apparently a real, genuine member of the police-equivalent of Azir (he's called a constable). I imagine he's also managed to get a similar position in Iri.

He is called a constable because of the uniform or the rope tied around his arm.  Certainly nobody recognizes him.  There are a million ways to get hold of a uniform.  While he may be a real Azish constable, he may not.  Given the worldwide scope of his activities, it seems unlikely that he could really hold a position in any local police force as he could not spend much time in any particular local organization. 

I know of no textual support for the idea that is a member of the Iri police.  Ym does not recognize his uniform, which indicates that he is not dressed as an Iriali policeman. 

[Pathfinder]

We don't know how he got that execution warrant.  It could be through bribery, intimidation or forgery.  Execution for theft is quite surprising and Nale resorts to intimidation to take Lift. 

Why would Nale stop his own subordinate and hold back from apprehending Lift due to the laws of the land he is in, if he already committed bribery, intimidation, or forgery? Why go through all that ILLEGAL trouble, just to stop short of your prize due to LEGALITY? That is a pretty big assumption to make of Nale. 

Edited July 24, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Moogle]

Exactly as Nale was not persecuting Lift and Ym out of a desire to uphold the law, but rather to keep them from surgebinding. Surgebinding is not a crime.

 

Yes, but Nale keeps the law in mind as he kills. He uses it to restrict his actions. Adolin did not think on the legality of his murder of Sadeas, either to say to himself "it's okay for me to kill him" or "oh, damnation, guess I can't kill him". That is why I think there's no way the Skybreakers would ever consider allowing him in and would disapprove of his actions, even if what he did was legal.

 

He is called a constable because of the uniform or the rope tied around his arm.  Certainly nobody recognizes him.  There are a million ways to get hold of a uniform.  While he may be a real Azish constable, he may not.  Given the worldwide scope of his activities, it seems unlikely that he could really hold a position in any local police force as he could not spend much time in any particular local organization. 

 

I know of no textual support for the idea that is a member of the Iri police.  Ym does not recognize his uniform, which indicates that he is not dressed as an Iriali policeman. 

 

Impersonating an officer of the law is a crime (probably?). I do not think Nale would do that unless he were an actual constable (which would be how he got the execution order in the first place). Iri may not require that officers of the law wear a uniform to signify their position, and as Nale keeps on the move I don't think he'd spend the time changing his uniform up.

 

I do think he could hold a position in multiple jurisdictions. All he needs is for members of the Skybreakers to be in positions of authority where they determine who is and is not a constable, and I'm sure that over the years he's managed to place people in those positions.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Moogle

[DSC01 he/him]

I think we'll find that Sadeas' death won't stop the schemes he set in motion. I think Ialai will continue to mess things up for everyone (indeed, she may have be a bigger part of the Sadeas problem than we yet know).

I don't know why there's so much argument over whether it was right to kill Sadeas. Of course it was right. He's guilty of high treason, as characters have explicitly pointed out, and only Elhokar's weakness allowed him to get away with it. The way it happened was not great, but. It highlights the problems in Alethi society.

Sadeas had to go, and the existing justice system could only accomplish that by maneuvering him into a duel. How is that just? He died fighting Adolin, anyway. There was a struggle; it wasn't a knife in the back. What--if there had been pomp and ceremony and an audience, then it would have been okay?

[Guest]

. What--if there had been pomp and ceremony and an audience, then it would have been okay?

 

Nice one. It illustrates perfectly well how corrupted the Alethki society is. Dueling someone to death in front of an audience is acceptable. Fighting the same person in a dark tunnel, with the same outcome, is wrong.

 

Also, putting someone through an unfair unpaired duel, refusing that person the right to yield and silently watch as the poor chap gets beaten down to death is also acceptable.... Really.

[kadolin]

I dont think the duels are suppose or meant to lead to deaths. One would concede or the judge would have announced the verdict before that happens, barring accidents like what Sadeas intended for Dalinar, so it wouldnt be acceptable for deaths to happen but one can smoke much stormcrap to get away scot-free if it happens. In the case of Adolin, he got outmanuevered and agreed to the unfair terms but I dont think those terms allowed for deaths.

The legality of what Adolin did is undeniably wrong (Skybreakers) but not necessarily unpardonable. The morality of it differs much more on perspectives (An instinct to protect himself & loved ones against a dire threat, while not immediate, the danger is very real and unpredictably imminent. Sadeas has attempted & threatened more), The necessity of the act is pretty much the final influencing factor for me in determining the right & wrong of it.

Edited July 30, 2014 by kadolin

[Pathfinder]

I dont think the duels are suppose or meant to lead to deaths. One would concede or the judge would have announced the verdict before that happens, barring accidents like what Sadeas intended for Dalinar, so it wouldnt be acceptable for deaths to happen but one can smoke much stormcrap to get away scot-free if it happens. In the case of Adolin, he got outmanuevered and agreed to the unfair terms but I dont think those terms allowed for deaths.

The legality of what Adolin did is undeniably wrong (Skybreakers) but not necessarily unpardonable. The morality of it differs much more on perspectives (An instinct to protect himself & loved ones against a dire threat, while not immediate, the danger is very real and unpredictably imminent. Sadeas has attempted & threatened more), The necessity of the act is pretty much the final influencing factor for me in determining the right & wrong of it.

The terms only offered that the combatants had the option to surrender, and if they did so then the bout would end for them. If the individual didn't surrender, or was not given an opportunity to (attacked so fiercely so as to be unable to call out) then I believe death is an acceptable outcome. I will need to check the book though. Will follow up when I locate it. 

 

edit: haven't found the spot i am looking for yet, but on page 660, Adolin states that Sadeas killed an opponent in a duel. So if Sadeas killed someone in a duel, but is still a highprince with no legal problems, something tells me it is part and parcel. Still looking for the scene the specifies the terms of the duel though. 

 

edit2: page 671 "The terms- agreed upon with Relis and spoken in front of the high judge just earlier- indicated that this duel would go until surrender, not until a certain number of Plate sections were broken. That meant if Adolin did manage to breat one of his foes, making the man give in, the other could keep fighting. It also meant that Adolin didn't have to stop fighting until he was convinced he was bested. Or until he was incapacitated"....."They're going to try to break you," Navani said "That's why they insisted this be a match until surrender. They'll leave you crippled if they can, Adolin." "No different from the battlefield," he said. "Actually, in this case, they will want to leave me alive. I'll work better as an oject lesson with Blade-dead legs than I would as ashes."

 

Also Dalinar intended to jump in and help, but Elhokar stopped him stating that all four would turn on Dalinar and kill him the moment he stepped into the ring. 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Guest]

I dont think the duels are suppose or meant to lead to deaths. One would concede or the judge would have announced the verdict before that happens, barring accidents like what Sadeas intended for Dalinar, so it wouldnt be acceptable for deaths to happen but one can smoke much stormcrap to get away scot-free if it happens. In the case of Adolin, he got outmanuevered and agreed to the unfair terms but I dont think those terms allowed for deaths.

The legality of what Adolin did is undeniably wrong (Skybreakers) but not necessarily unpardonable. The morality of it differs much more on perspectives (An instinct to protect himself & loved ones against a dire threat, while not immediate, the danger is very real and unpredictably imminent. Sadeas has attempted & threatened more), The necessity of the act is pretty much the final influencing factor for me in determining the right & wrong of it.

 

Adolin got outmaneuvered, true, but the intend of the duel was to kill him or at the very least to cripple him. They called it "punishment". The high judge was bought in advance and wouldn't stop the duel until Adolin was left unable to fight, ie either dead or seriously injured. His opponents would not let him signal the judge either and when he tried to call out, she ignored him. Dalinar tried to have the duel stop as he felt it was getting too dangerous for his son, but the judge, again refused. Shallan notices something was off with the duel as Adolin was not able to forfeit.

 

The entire crowd was watching in silence and no one scream or call to make it stop as it was clearly unfair. It was clear for everyone that Adolin was doomed, up until Kaladin saved the day.

 

Bottom line is, yes, for Alethki, killing someone in a duel is very acceptable and Adolin was sure going to try to kill Sadeas in one. Adolin did the right thing, but it is was wrong and to me it illustrates the thin line between good and evil. Every good in the evil of a greater good.

[kadolin]

I read about duels to the death in some stories, where both parties agreed to such terms with the duel approved by some authority. That was not in this case. Usually there is a need for very good reason to allow for deaths, in some cultures, honor is worth more than death.

Duels has inherent risks of accidents/deaths that are accepted by the participants and audience but they were not the intentions of duels, in Adolin's case, it was incapacitation or surrender as the accepted terms.

@Pathfinder

What you pointed out were risks concerns and expectations of foul play but not the official terms of the duel.

So killing someone in a duel accidentally is socially acceptable I would say.

Edited July 30, 2014 by kadolin

[Pathfinder]

I read about duels to the death in some stories, where both parties agreed to such terms with the duel approved by some authority. That was not in this case. Usually there is a need for very good reason to allow for deaths, in some cultures, honor is worth more than death.

Duels has inherent risks of accidents/deaths that are accepted by the participants and audience but they were not the intentions of duels, in Adolin's case, it was incapacitation or surrender as the accepted terms.

@Pathfinder

What you pointed out were risks concerns and expectations of foul play but not the official terms of the duel.

So killing someone in a duel accidentally is socially acceptable I would say.

If you will like I will find the full quote, but it is referenced that Sadeus did kill an opponent in a duel. In fact that is the duel Adolin and Dalinar use for inspiration to challenge Sadeus to a duel. Sadeus fought so well that the king at the time allowed him a boon to which Sadeus challenged another person who could not refuse. Now I do not recall if he killed the first person he battled or the second, but it is stated he did kill and it was accepted. I referenced Page 660, but i can look it up again and quote the passage if that would help. 

[kadolin]

Those terms of the duel were unclear and I did mention that even if death was not the accepted terms, it can be spinned into an accident for it to be acceptable.

So in a duel, everyone expects it to be incapacitation or surrender with the risks of accidents (which can possibly be avoided by intervention). They do not enter a duel accepting that death will eventually occur, they might worry about the risks of it happening unintentionally.

Edited July 30, 2014 by kadolin

[Pathfinder]

"The purpose of this preliminary duel was to conspicuously awe and impress the highprinces. Though we had plotted this earlier, the first man to be defeated did not know of his role in our ploy. Sadeas defeated him with calculated spectacle. He paused the fighting at several points and raised the stakes, first with money, then with lands." "In the end, the victory was dramatic. With the crowd so engaged, King Gavilar stood and offered Sadeus a boon for having pleased him, after the ancient tradition. Sadeas's reply was simple: "I will have no boon other than Yenev's cowardly heart on the end of my sword Your Majesty!" "The event, along with his words, is recorded in several major histories," Shallan said. "Sadeas then dueled Yenev, killed the man, and made an opening for an ally- Aladar - to take control of that princedom instead."

 

All right there for you. 

 

edited for spelling mistakes, fast typer lol

Edited July 30, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Guest]

I read about duels to the death in some stories, where both parties agreed to such terms with the duel approved by some authority. That was not in this case. Usually there is a need for very good reason to allow for deaths, in some cultures, honor is worth more than death.

Duels has inherent risks of accidents/deaths that are accepted by the participants and audience but they were not the intentions of duels, in Adolin's case, it was incapacitation or surrender as the accepted terms.

 

The issue with Adolin's duel is that he was unjustly prevented to yield. The duel was until surrender or incapacitation, which leaves room for Adolin to actually surrender. If I am not mistaken, he did try to surrender about three times and he was denied because the judge was bought. I agree the terms were such she would not call it of until Adolin was left unable to fight, but he still had the right to yield.

 

Adolin's duel was clearly unfair and unmatched. The intention was to beat him down like a beast. In such circumstances, the judge should have called it ff.

 

Also, there is the fact every single lighteyed regarded the duel without any emotion: all seemed very fine with watching both Kohlin boys being slaughtered to death in what was obviously an unjust fight. At the end, there was no cheering from the lighteyes crowd: they sit still in stunned silence. They did not want Adolin to win. They came to watch him get killed and they were all willing to accept Renarin, a boy would can't fight, as a collateral damage.The darkeyes however were frantic and cheering big time.

 

I wished we had seen Sadeas fought though. According to Dalinar, he was a superb swordsman and I really wanted to see himself measure up to Adolin. He was older, but more experienced and Adolin being no doubt exhausted from his first fight. It would have led to an interesting bout. Too bad.

Edited July 31, 2014 by maxal

[kadolin]

Nice one. It illustrates perfectly well how corrupted the Alethki society is. Dueling someone to death in front of an audience is acceptable. Fighting the same person in a dark tunnel, with the same outcome, is wrong.

 

Also, putting someone through an unfair unpaired duel, refusing that person the right to yield and silently watch as the poor chap gets beaten down to death is also acceptable.... Really.

 

Bottom line is, yes, for Alethki, killing someone in a duel is very acceptable and Adolin was sure going to try to kill Sadeas in one. Adolin did the right thing, but it is was wrong and to me it illustrates the thin line between good and evil. Every good in the evil of a greater good.

Actually I was debating about deaths being acceptable in duels. Pathfinder mentioned Sadaes's duel in the past that involved him killing his opponent though how was it accepted and terms of the duel were unclear. It could be a mutually agreed duel to the death or a staged murder made to look like an accident in a duel.

 

While I might be nitpicking on the details, my point was that death was never accepted unless agreed upon and risks were accepted, specifically in the shard duels mentioned so far. Foul play was also not accepted provided it could be proven.

 

The unfair odds were actually accepted by Adolin. He was "denied surrender" via foul play (he tried to raise his hand as the official signal but his hand got slammed down) and a bribed judge. It was not an outright refusal which would go against the rules, the judge pretended not to notice and the opponent made sure the signal wasn't obvious enough to be contested.

 

They could end the fight and win all the shards but they wanted to drag the fight out to bait Dalinar to intervene and stage an accident.

 

The audience's reaction is unclear really, no one dared to help, some were very concerned, others oblivious or unconcerned perhaps.

 

I think we were trying to debate Adolin's execution/assassination of Sadaes as acceptable as a duel where Adolin gets to kill Sadeas. Unless Sadeas agrees to duelling to death, its not quite comparable. I agree what Adolin did was morally debatable, legally wrong but necessary to protect himself and loved ones (which tips the moral scale imho)

[Pathfinder]

Actually I was debating about deaths being acceptable in duels. Pathfinder mentioned Sadaes's duel in the past that involved him killing his opponent though how was it accepted and terms of the duel were unclear. It could be a mutually agreed duel to the death or a staged murder made to look like an accident in a duel.

 

While I might be nitpicking on the details, my point was that death was never accepted unless agreed upon and risks were accepted, specifically in the shard duels mentioned so far. Foul play was also not accepted provided it could be proven.

 

I think we were trying to debate Adolin's execution/assassination of Sadaes as acceptable as a duel where Adolin gets to kill Sadeas. Unless Sadeas agrees to duelling to death, its not quite comparable. I agree what Adolin did was morally debatable, legally wrong but necessary to protect himself and loved ones (which tips the moral scale imho)

Just checking my earlier post went up, because I literally quoted WoR, where Sadeus challenged an opponent to the death that Yenev could not refuse due to it being a boon from the king. That duel was written about by Jasnah, one of many histories written about the duel that say the same thing, and was quoted by Shallan. That duel is the duel Adolin and Dalinar used as inspiration and was why they did the whole challenge to begin with. The goal of Sadeus's duel was to challenge Yenev to a fight to the death. Adolin emulating said duel means to me he had the exact same intention. The terms of Sadeas's duel were very clear when quoted by Shallan. It was not mutually agreed, because Sadeas had to go through all that to corner cowardly Yenev, and it was not accidental murder because he literally declares he intends to kill Yenev. Death was accepted regardless of whether Yenev agreed to it or not. By emulating Sadeas's duel, Adolin does not need Sadeas to agree to duel, nor to even agree to the terms. I have quoted the text again below on the off chance it didn't go up the first time. I have bolded and underlined the pertinent parts:

 

"The purpose of this preliminary duel was to conspicuously awe and impress the highprinces. Though we had plotted this earlier, the first man to be defeated did not know of his role in our ploy. Sadeas defeated him with calculated spectacle. He paused the fighting at several points and raised the stakes, first with money, then with lands." "In the end, the victory was dramatic. With the crowd so engaged, King Gavilar stood and offered Sadeus a boon for having pleased him, after the ancient tradition. Sadeas's reply was simple: "I will have no boon other than Yenev's cowardly heart on the end of my sword Your Majesty!" "The event, along with his words, is recorded in several major histories," Shallan said. "Sadeas then dueled Yenev, killed the man, and made an opening for an ally- Aladar - to take control of that princedom instead."

Edited July 31, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Guest]

Actually I was debating about deaths being acceptable in duels. Pathfinder mentioned Sadaes's duel in the past that involved him killing his opponent though how was it accepted and terms of the duel were unclear. It could be a mutually agreed duel to the death or a staged murder made to look like an accident in a duel.

 

Sadeas coaxes Yenev to fight a duel to death. Adolin's wording, when challenging Sadeas, did not imply a duel to death, but his goal was to try to kill him "accidentally" or at the very least just beat him and take his shards.

 

 

 

While I might be nitpicking on the details, my point was that death was never accepted unless agreed upon and risks were accepted, specifically in the shard duels mentioned so far. Foul play was also not accepted provided it could be proven.

 

The unfair odds were actually accepted by Adolin. He was "denied surrender" via foul play (he tried to raise his hand as the official signal but his hand got slammed down) and a bribed judge. It was not an outright refusal which would go against the rules, the judge pretended not to notice and the opponent made sure the signal wasn't obvious enough to be contested.

 

Adolin accepted to fight an unmatched duel and, in his over-excitement, failed to write down the specifics. However, he did not agree to a duel to death. Perhaps he could have refused the bout initially and give up without a fight, but we all know Adolin would never do this. He would, at the very least, try even if he had little chances of winning. He knows this, but he goes for it up until he realizes they would not let him yield. Then, he panicked. He realizes at this point they intent to kill him or cripple him and no one would stop the duel before it got there.

 

It was outright refusal. He tried to speak up and yield, but he was not heard. He tried to raise his hand to signal the judge, but it was slammed down. Once he got out of the melee, he yelled to Renarin to get out of the arena and then he signaled the judge, again. He claimed there was no way she was not seeing him, but she looked away. Relis then forced him to continue fighting and to give them what they wanted (punishment for Adolin) in exchange for Renarin's safety. Basically, Adolin chose to sacrifice himself to protect his little brother.

 

 

They could end the fight and win all the shards but they wanted to drag the fight out to bait Dalinar to intervene and stage an accident.

 

Did they? The duel was not orchestrated by the highprinces, but by the young dueling crew. They were mad Adolin got to humiliate them duel after duel as he was not supposed to have what it takes to win. Strangely, Sadeas had no hands in this. Adolin more or less trapped him own self in his empressement to find a way to duel Sadeas. Relis jumped on it and saw a way to get rid of annoying Adolin.

 

Dalinar wanted to jump in, but was prevented by Elhokar. Elhokar implied it may be a plot to get him killed. Was it really? I am not sure. At this point, I felt they were gunning for Adolin: getting rid of the son would cripple the father greatly.

 

I wonder if Dalinar would have jumped in nonetheless eventually if Kaladin had not taken the matters into his hands....

 

 

The audience's reaction is unclear really, no one dared to help, some were very concerned, others oblivious or unconcerned perhaps.

 

Shallan was outraged nobody tried to help the Kohlins. Sebrarial called Adolin an "arrogant fool who does not know when he is beaten". Sadeas, Ruthar and Roion were probably gloating. The rest, we don't know. Nobody sure felt the urge to defend the Kohlins and nobody felt the urge to signal the judge to end it.

 

I also notices that once the fight was over (and what a fight it was), nobody in the lighteyed crowd cheered. Nobody whereas the darkeyes were all yelling of excitement.... Strange huh? I wonder sometimes if, after this duel, after giving out shards to a darkeye, after killing Sadeas a great torturer of darkeyes, Adolin will not become the darkeyes champion of sort.

 

 

 

I think we were trying to debate Adolin's execution/assassination of Sadaes as acceptable as a duel where Adolin gets to kill Sadeas. Unless Sadeas agrees to duelling to death, its not quite comparable. I agree what Adolin did was morally debatable, legally wrong but necessary to protect himself and loved ones (which tips the moral scale imho)

 

Adolin's goal was to stage an accident. He managed to stage looking sloppy an unskilled, a feat that impressed Sadeas greatly. It could be he has enough talent to make death look accidental.

[kadolin]

Pathfinder, on 31 Jul 2014 - 8:40 PM, said:

..Yenev could not refuse due to it being a boon from the king. ..

"I will have no boon other than Yenev's cowardly heart on the end of my sword Your Majesty!" "...

.. "Sadeas then dueled Yenev, killed the man, ..

@Pathfinder

Thanks for clarifying. I did not take his words to be literally at first but its reasonable to assume he wants a duel to death which his opponent could not refuse. Which means Yenev had no choice I'd assume, not willingly accepting it but forced to, nonetheless accepting a duel to the death.

maxal, on 31 Jul 2014 - 9:25 PM, said:

Sadeas coaxes Yenev to fight a duel to death. Adolin's wording, when challenging Sadeas, did not imply a duel to death, but his goal was to try to kill him "accidentally" or at the very least just beat him and take his shards.

This was before the 2nd attempt on Dalinar's life and Sadeas at that point has made no outright declaration against his family. Adolin only wanted to win his shards and discredit him. I didn't find any refernce to his intent to kill.

...

It was outright refusal. He tried to speak up and yield, but he was not heard. He tried to raise his hand to signal the judge, but it was slammed down. Once he got out of the melee, he yelled to Renarin to get out of the arena and then he signaled the judge, again. He claimed there was no way she was not seeing him, but she looked away. Relis then forced him to continue fighting and to give them what they wanted (punishment for Adolin) in exchange for Renarin's safety. Basically, Adolin chose to sacrifice himself to protect his little brother.

I wouldnt consider it outright refusal unless the judge acknowledges to hearing his surrender and rules that he doesnt allow it despite the terms. But the judge simply pretended to not notice. Thats the grey area they are playing around with, despite how obvious it might seem to some, unless they can challenge and prove it undeniably, which would be hard considering Sadeas would use his political weight to interfere and defend the foul play.

Did they? The duel was not orchestrated by the highprinces, but by the young dueling crew. They were mad Adolin got to humiliate them duel after duel as he was not supposed to have what it takes to win. Strangely, Sadeas had no hands in this. Adolin more or less trapped him own self in his empressement to find a way to duel Sadeas. Relis jumped on it and saw a way to get rid of annoying Adolin.

Dalinar wanted to jump in, but was prevented by Elhokar. Elhokar implied it may be a plot to get him killed. Was it really? I am not sure. At this point, I felt they were gunning for Adolin: getting rid of the son would cripple the father greatly.

It was implied (in page 657 XD) when four opponents came out, Dalinar & Elhokar confronted Sadeas immediately about what is going on. Sadeas faked ignorance but went on to explain Adolin's duel terms while pointing out the flaws, he knew what was going on exactly and its no surprise he could have approached the princes and planned this maneuver against the Kholins. Sadeas even reminded Dalinar that he could help his sons within the acceptable terms of the duel, which Elhokar pointed out that it was a trap.

Adolin's goal was to stage an accident. He managed to stage looking sloppy an unskilled, a feat that impressed Sadeas greatly. It could be he has enough talent to make death look accidental.

You might have to provide a reference for this, I could not find it so far. Again his intent was to win shards and discredit Sadeas.

Edited July 31, 2014 by kadolin

[Guest]

I wouldnt consider it outright refusal unless the judge acknowledges to hearing his surrender and rules that he doesnt allow it despite the terms. But the judge simply pretended to not notice. Thats the grey area they are playing around with, despite how obvious it might seem to some, unless they can challenge and prove it undeniably, which would be hard considering Sadeas would use his political weight to interfere and defend the foul play.

 

This is interesting as I went to re-read the fighting sequence and Adolin trials for surrender.

 

He did tried to yield three times:

 

"I yield, " he said, voice muffled by his helm. Attempt 1

They continued attacking. He said it louder. Attempt 2

Nobody listened.

He raised his hand to signal to the judge to stop the proceedings, but someone slammed his arm downward. Attempt 3

No! Adolin thought, swinging about himself in a panic.

The judge could not end the fight. If he left this duel alive, he would do so as a cripple.

 

Now in here, Adolin knows the terms of the duel are such the judge would not end it until it is too late. His only chance is to yield, but his opponents are not letting him to do and are faking hearing him calling for surrender.

 

Then, he tried to surrendered a fourth time:

 

He turned toward the highjudge to signal his surrender. Surely she could see him now.

"Adolin," Relis said, prowling forward, his Plate leaking from small cracks on his chest. "Now, we wouldn't want to end this prematurely, would we?"

"What glory do you think will come of such a fight?" Adolin spat back, sword held carefully, ready to give the signal.

 

But he does not go forward with the signaling. Renarin has jumped into the arena and Relis go and taunt Adolin. Fight us, let us beat you down and we won't hurt you brother.

 

So I guess you are right. He didn't get the chance to really signal his surrender. Afterwards though, he notices the judge would not call the fight of even if an unplated barely able to fight man was now on the ring. She was bought and ask to let the fight go as long as possible.

 

From Shallan's perspective:

 

Adolin seemed about to give in, but then for some reason, he threw himself back into the fight instead.

 

Basically, Adolin does not yield to protect Renarin.

 

It was implied (in page 657 XD) when four opponents came out, Dalinar & Elhokar confronted Sadeas immediately about what is going on. Sadeas faked ignorance but went on to explain Adolin's duel terms while pointing out the flaws, he knew what was going on exactly and its no surprise he could have approached the princes and planned this maneuver against the Kholins. Sadeas even reminded Dalinar that he could help his sons within the acceptable terms of the duel, which Elhokar pointed out that it was a trap.

 

Sadeas knew of the terms and no doubt hoped Dalinar would jump in and get slaughtered, but he did not orchestrated this fight. He saw an opportunity and tried to gloat Dalinar to fall for it, but initially the duel was not a set-up to make Dalinar fall. Now, Elhokar and Dalinar do not know that, so they assumed Sadeas may have had a hand in it, but its quite far-fetched as none of the opponents were from Sadeas.

 

You might have to provide a reference for this, I could not find it so far. Again his intent was to win shards and discredit Sadeas.

 

I swear there is a place where Dalinar mentions they may have to kill Sadeas in a duel.... I just can't find it anymore. How infuriating!

[kadolin]

I did not dispute his attempts to surrender and as you pointed out from Shallan's perspective, it didn't seem obvious to her that Adolin has surrendered, only seemingly but continued on the fight. Judge pretended not to notice, it was not officially refused. Subsequently Adolin gave up for fear of Renarin's safety. No one successfully called and proved foul play, Dalinar attempted but didnt manage to stop the duel for same reasons.

Elhokar called Sadeas's BS and Sadeas did not deny further nor did he admit. I said it was "implied" since the conversation was leading the readers that way. Dalinar and Elhokar needed no proof and recognized his meddling immediately. Sadeas did not help himself but faked ignorance and conveniently explained the duel terms fluently.

Why would you say its far fetched when Sadeas stands to gain without getting his hands dirty. He is capable of political manipulations and he has been monitoring Adolin in his previous duels attempts. Enemies of Kholins collaborating to plot the downfall of Dalinar is not far fetched, especially not when the characters involved believed it so.

To be fair, you can say he might not have but at least you cant be sure he didnt. The accusations were from the characters in the book by the way.

Edited July 31, 2014 by kadolin

[Guest]

Why would you say its far fetched when Sadeas stands to gain without getting his hands dirty. He is capable of political manipulations and he has been monitoring Adolin in his previous duels attempts. Enemies of Kholins collaborating to plot the downfall of Dalinar is not far fetched, especially not when the characters involved believed it so.

 

It's just the way it happened..... Relis did not planned to have an outmatched duel with Adolin. It can't have been a ploy. Shallan told Adolin he needed to be spectacular and as Adolin couldn't get Relis to agree to duel him, so he asked for an unmatched fight (thinking 2 vs 1). Sadeas or Ialai could not have been behind this duel taking place as no one would have known in advance Adolin would be so impulsive as to put himself into such a tight spot.

 

It can't have spurred from collaboration, it was too unannounced.

 

Afterwards, I agree Sadeas may have seen an opportunity to take down Dalinar. He may have talk with Ruthar and agree on a 4 against 1 duel. He may have had a say in choosing who would fight. For all we know, he may have been the one to convince Jakamav to take part in it.

 

My whole point simply is that Sadeas could not have been the originator of this whole ploy.

 

 

To be fair, you can say he might not have but at least you cant be sure he didnt. The accusations were from the characters in the book by the way.

 

Sure they blame Sadeas. When they see four shardbearers, they automatically turn towards Sadeas and think he is behind it. He can't be as Adolin was not forced into accepting this challenge, he asked for it himself............

[kadolin]

The duel was accepted by a prince within his faction of supporters. There were 2 days before the duel commenced, enough time for Sadeas to find out and plan to trap Dalinar/Adolin. Whether he started the duel idea wasnt really important, he was believed to be responsible for how it turned out which was a pretty reasonable accusation.

 

Adolin asked for the duel and accepted. Thats that. But the way the duel went about was manipulated by Sadeas, not far fetched to assume that when the characters in the story flow that way as well. Perhaps somewhere down the line, it could be someone else like Sadeas's wife or someone unrevealed. Until something contradicting unfolds, its not really far fetched to assume him guilty. 

[Guest]

The duel was accepted by a prince within his faction of supporters. There were 2 days before the duel commenced, enough time for Sadeas to find out and plan to trap Dalinar/Adolin. Whether he started the duel idea wasnt really important, he was believed to be responsible for how it turned out which was a pretty reasonable accusation.

 

Adolin asked for the duel and accepted. Thats that. But the way the duel went about was manipulated by Sadeas, not far fetched to assume that when the characters in the story flow that way as well. Perhaps somewhere down the line, it could be someone else like Sadeas's wife or someone unrevealed. Until something contradicting unfolds, its not really far fetched to assume him guilty. 

 

Fair enough. I just never really saw him as guilty of this as he could not have been the investigator of the duel.

[Szeth-son-son-Vallano he/him]

Exactly. I was actually very disturbed by what Adolin did. If he'd been tried by an Alethi court and found guilty, I wouldn't have cared in the slightest. But Adolin killing him is very much a step backward in his character development, and I think something he will very much regret in the coming books. I would say that Moash killing Elhokar would be worse, because that's premeditated murder. However, Adolin is not the least excused. I was disappointed in him when I read that, and I really hope that this whole experience helps him get good character development.

 

I thought the opposite really. I generally found Adolin the weakest link in the main protagonist line-up, due in part to how classically perfect he seemed. I mean, he just struck me as too good to be true in the world he lives in. He's a badass warrior prince with dazzling good looks and modest intellect; he's a master duelist and a renowned ladies' man and the heartthrob love interest for our heroine, quickly overcoming his flaws (class discrimination) and befriending those he'd been ungrateful towards. He's like the perfect guy.

 

He's also a murderer who unlawfully stabbed an unarmed man to death because he thought it was the only to dish out some real justice.

 

That's great development IMO. It's made him vastly more interesting to me.

[Guest]

I thought the opposite really. I generally found Adolin the weakest link in the main protagonist line-up, due in part to how classically perfect he seemed. I mean, he just struck me as too good to be true in the world he lives in. He's a badass warrior prince with dazzling good looks and modest intellect; he's a master duelist and a renowned ladies' man and the heartthrob love interest for our heroine, quickly overcoming his flaws (class discrimination) and befriending those he'd been ungrateful towards. He's like the perfect guy.

 

He's also a murderer who unlawfully stabbed an unarmed man to death because he thought it was the only to dish out some real justice.

 

That's great development IMO. It's made him vastly more interesting to me.

 

Adolin is not perfect... Now sorry for the long essay... Didn't mean it to come this way

 

He is temperamental, immature, impulsive, prone to anger and constantly has to remind himself to keep his temper under control. He does not like to follow orders he does not understand and he constantly arguments against them, which does not make him the perfect soldier. He is a badass warrior, but he also is a very reckless one, willing to take hits to score one, which is a very dangerous tactic.

 

He is a ridiculously good duelist and yet he was completely routed out twice by Szeth whereas both Dalinar and Galivar managed to prevail. He also come out as arrogant and cocky, but from his POV we know he is just showing of as, inside, he does not feel so confident. He tries to maintain a composed exterior to reassure Renarin (mostly), to look in control and brave. However, he is prone to nervousness as he has all of these silly little ticks: summoning/dismissing his blade when stressed, stupid ritual before dueling to help calm his nerves, drinking yellow wine before dueling to again help calm his nerves, etc.

 

He is handsome, but he is blond in a world were black or dark is the fashion. I bet most ladies do not care much for his hair. Despite being the warcamp resident heartthrob, he can't keep dating one woman for more than a few days. He practically ran out of options as all of the eligible women have declared not wanting to have anything to do with him. He keeps stucking his foot into his mouth when dealing with women and he has grown very insecure when it comes to such relationships (from his POV we see his questioning on the matter). He accepts the proposed arranged weeding out of a lack of options as he realized he is incapable to make one woman want to marry him.

 

He is also a fop, a dandy of sort, who puts way to much importance in fashion and looks. It makes him superficial, but he was actually growing over this.

 

He has virtually no friends. He's had "acquaintances", but none were willing to stick up with him through Dalinar's changes. In fact, he is so friendless he resorted himself to ask a darkeye about how to best deal with women.... Also, his "best friend" teamed up with other to beat him down to death in an unfair duel, talk about friendship.

 

He is the love interest to Shallan through an arrange weeding and whereas he seemed to really like her, the opposite is not clear. Shallan wants to be with Adolin because such an union would save her family. She, of course, think he is handsome and friendly, which is much more than she expected, but can it be called love?

 

His flaws have never been class discrimination as Adolin has always been one of the most friendly lighteye we have met. Dalinar comments on it early on in WoK stating Adolin was too friendly with the men to his taste, but he was willing to let that pass as the men clearly loved him. He has been grateful to Kaladin and he has acknowledged him a few times, very very grudgingly, but still. His dislike of Kal was triggered by his instinct telling him Kal was not telling them the whole truth and that sometime was "off" with him. Turns out he was right.

 

His main flaw is his temper and his lack of rationality when he gets too emotional. Things such as accepting a unmatched duel in his empressement to find a way to fight Sadeas or such as murdering same Sadeas later on in a fit of rage.. are not what I would call cold calculated decision, but rashness.

 

Bottom line, he is not perfect, but I agree he was setup as prince charming. No more. The white shiny horse is dead

 

Agree the murder makes him even more interesting though.

[Chrono she/her]

I feel like Sadeas dying and Adolin killing him were things that needed to happen, mainly for storytelling purposes. Sadeas is no longer the main villain of any of the story arcs, and he's in a completely different weightclass compared to even Eshonai and the Stormform Parshendi. If he were around any longer, he would detract from the story line and frustrate readers to no end (I was already annoyed by him in this book; I definitely didn't want him around any more). Likewise, Adolin needed to kill him, because he's made no serious mistakes so far, as opposed to most other characters. This choice will send his character in a completely different direction, and I'm really excited for it. 

 

So killing Sadeas and having Adolin hold the knife was the right thing for the story. But was it the right thing for Adolin? I don't think so. I've already expressed my opinion in other posts, but I'll elaborate on my position here. 

 

Adolin is a nice guy. He doesn't like fighting in war and he prefers dueling, which is non-lethal. Sure, he can be a brat sometimes, but other than that, very charming. Which is why him killing Sadeas came completely out of the blue for me (I'm very awful at foreshadowing until after the foreshadowed event has already occurred). My first thought when Adolin did it: This is wrong. Why? Because even though he's impulsive, even though he's got anger issues, even though Sadeas has basically made him and his family suffer, I don't believe it's something Adolin would do if he were in a clear state of mind. 

 

"But he is in a clear state of mind," you say. I argue that Adolin is injured, exhausted, and angry from the recent battle. He's been bested again by Szeth. His father nearly died. Kaladin and Shallan have both turned out to be Radiants. His horse got shot. He's obviously emotionally unstable. Furthermore, when Sadeas reveals his plan to basically diss Dalinar, Adolin just loses it. He practically goes crazy and knifes Sadeas before realizing what he just did. Adolin has resisted the urge to kill Sadeas before in a calmer setting. He doesn't now, and that just screams "BAD!" to me. 

 

Basically, my argument boils down to: Adolin is not in a clear state of mind, and he did something he would not do if he was in a clear state of mind. That's why it was wrong for him personally to do so. Don't get me wrong: now I think it's awesome that he did it, and I'm glad Sadeas is gone. I just don't think it was the right thing for Adolin to do. If Jasnah had done it, I'd have no qualms. If Sadeas were executed by Dalinar for treason and willful rebellion against the throne, I wouldn't have batted an eye. But the fact that Adolin does this in such a brutal way convinces me that it was the wrong thing for him to do.

 

Now we just have to see how it goes!