The Passionate Kaladin

[OdiYum]

I have had a weird idea for a while now and wanted to share it.  It seems like the consensus on Kaladin’s arc has involved him coming to terms with his limits, as a surgeon, a leader and a radiant.  First ideal helps him deal with his depression, second ideal states his purpose, third ideal refines it, and the fourth ideal limits it to within reason.  To me it always seemed like he has been controlling his passions.  It always seemed like he had to protect almost compulsively and the fourth ideal assisted him with that.  Could he be highly connected to Honor (Child of Tanavast) but also highly connected to Odium? Didn’t Cultivation tell a certain someone that he was chosen to wield Odium ‘honorably.’  The current vessel of Odium never really struck me as honorable in the vein of Tanavast.  Maybe she wasn’t talking about That person.  Wouldn’t Kaladin be a great holder of Odium?  A man of passion bound by honorable intent?  Wouldn’t this be even greater as he reaches the 5th ideal and his spirit web irrevocably (maybe?) changes?  Not sure but would love to hear thoughts.

 

Thank you

Edited July 9, 2023 by OdiYum

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the forums. 

37 minutes ago, OdiYum said:

I have had a weird idea for a while now and wanted to share it.  It seems like the consensus on Kaladin’s arc has involved him coming to terms with his limits, as a surgeon, a leader and a radiant.  First ideal helps him deal with his depression, second ideal states his purpose, third ideal refines it, and the fourth ideal limits it withi

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[OdiYum]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Welcome to the forums. 

Your post seems to have been cut off. If you need help editing the post, maybe this can help:

  Hide contents

At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link, and (your posts only) and Edit and Options tools. On the bottom right you will see an up arrow.

• The Up Arrow is how you thank people or "like" a post
• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is
  • So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote"
• The + icon is multi-quote. As you read a thread, if you want to quote multiple items you click that for each post
  • As you click +, you should see a toaster pop-up on the bottom right of the browser window showing how many quotes you will have
  • They are added in the order you click the + icon, not in the original post order, so you can set the order of quotes for your reply
  • When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically
• Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote" button that pops up.
• Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply.
  • For example, you add a quote and realize there are no empty lines below it for you to type - so you can hit "enter" before the quote to make an empty line then when you hover over a quote you will see a 4-way arrow at the top-left that you can use to drag the quote up (or down)  and move the quote to before the empty line. . .
• Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting)
  • Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box
  • Editing the first post in a thread allows the thread-creator to edit the thread title.
  • Editing allows you to add a reason for the edit (Spelling and grammar (SPAG), formatting, clarification, new information, etc.), but it is not required.
• Next to Edit you will also find an "options" dropbox, you can use this to hide your post if you want to remove it after posting
• At the top of a post you will find "Report Post"
  • Use this if you do accidentally double-post (sometimes it's the browser or a slow link that causes a double post) - just leave a message that it was an accidental double post and the Mods can fix it. If it was the first post of a new thread that doubled, they usually can merge the threads if they both have answers, so all of the content is retained.

Hope that helps.

 

Thank you. 

[ftl]

Huh. You know, that's plausible enough. As good a theory as any!

[earthexile]

That sounds like an absolutely miserable ending for Kaladin. Alone, unique, burdened with endless responsibility, slowly becoming more and more a creature of raw emotion. No stews with his men, no woman, no family. I guess he could still have Sylphrena but what would ascension do to their bond? To be Odium would be the loneliness and unfreedom that Kaladin has always dreaded. Whether or not he'd be good at it, no matter how much good he could do, I would be so sad to see it happen.

[Dalinar_Kholin]

I imagined the final ideal would be related to something like trusting others or working together. Bonding with Odium might not be an incredibly depressing ending, but it doesn't seem to fit with Kaladin's character arc. I can't imagine it ending with him accepting loneliness. If anything, I could imagine him rejecting Odium.

[OdiYum]

15 hours ago, earthexile said:

That sounds like an absolutely miserable ending for Kaladin. Alone, unique, burdened with endless responsibility, slowly becoming more and more a creature of raw emotion. No stews with his men, no woman, no family. I guess he could still have Sylphrena but what would ascension do to their bond? To be Odium would be the loneliness and unfreedom that Kaladin has always dreaded. Whether or not he'd be good at it, no matter how much good he could do, I would be so sad to see it happen.

I agree to all of your points.  

Spoiler

Throughout the cosmere, I have read through numerous examples of heroic sacrifice.  Vin kamikazes herself to take out Ruin, Elend lets himself get killed by Marsh to free Vin to do the previous, Brightsong (or Lightsong can’t remember) gave his breath to heal the God-Emporer’s tongue, the Elantra’s protagonist bore the brunt of the Dor; seemingly giving him insight into fixing the Elantris Aon thingy mcgiggy, Wayne nuked himself finally one upping Wax; gaining closure to the fact that he IS a hero, and probably some others that I forgot.

My point is that those sacrifices all wrapped up a character arc with their deaths.  That hasn’t been Kaladin’s MO.  He endures.  Like I said the first ideal helped him cope with his depression and suicidal tendencies.  He eventually let go of his depression.  This is by no means saying that he doesn’t still experience it, but it is no longer his defining characteristic, so he endured.  Leading up to his second ideal, he let go of his apathy, it was his call to action and he endured a suicide mission saving Dalinar, Adolin, the Kholin army and his bridgemen.  His third ideal taught him to let go of his biases and prejudices (sp?), justified or not.  He The fourth ideal led him to let go of his failures, which were dragging him down.  I don’t mean to diminish his losses, he still feels them, the gravity (pun?) of them.  But now he can learn from them and not have them become all consuming.  He has always endured.

 

11 hours ago, Dalinar_Kholin said:

I imagined the final ideal would be related to something like trusting others or working together. Bonding with Odium might not be an incredibly depressing ending, but it doesn't seem to fit with Kaladin's character arc. I can't imagine it ending with him accepting loneliness. If anything, I could imagine him rejecting Odium.

I think his fifth ideal will have to do with letting go of his needs, leading him to a blanket statement of “I will protect.”  This will take into account everything that he has learned up to this point.  He will choose to protect his friends from Odium at the cost of what he wants more than anything, a peaceful life.  It has seemed like it has been hinted to both in universe and out of universe that it is possible to resist the character altering characteristics of wielding a shard.  I don’t think Kaladin will be alone though.  I think Syl will be intact with him because they are pulling each other towards each other (I am not sure that makes sense).  Soon they will be so connected that they will be indistinguishable from each other.  But even if that is not the case, he will still have his memories to cherish allowing him to carry the bridge far enough before he can safely set it down. All the sacrifices I mentioned earlier ARE heroic, but they resulted in the end.  Just like the Heralds, the personal consequences of this sacrifice would endure, being all the more tragic.  And Kal has always seemed like a tragic hero to me.

Sorry if this is rambling.  ADHD is bad today.

Edited July 10, 2023 by OdiYum
Proof reading should be done before hitting the dark blue button…sorry

[Dalinar_Kholin]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:58 PM, OdiYum said:

I don’t think Kaladin will be alone though.  I think Syl will be intact with him because they are pulling each other towards each other (I am not sure that makes sense).  Soon they will be so connected that they will be indistinguishable from each other.  

Huh, I always had the impression that Syl was becoming more of an independent entity as the books progressed. Like a child growing up. Also, a tragic hero ending for kaladin is possible but Sanderson never goes for overly dark endings, and since he has portrayed Kaladin as depressed from the start, I don't see him getting a sad ending. I feel Dalinar or Adolin are far more likely to end up with a tragic ending.

[OdiYum]

Sorry I explained that poorly.  I meant that as their bond deepens Syl is pulled towards Kaladin in behavior and mannerisms.  The end of ROW was a role reversal of sorts for them.  Syl was morose and Karl is the one who is helping her.  Meanwhile Kaladin is pulled towards being a more ideal Windrunner, cheering Syl up and reminding her of the memories they have of Teft.  They still have their distinct personalities but they are becoming more and more similar to each other.  Did that make sense?  I also don’t think that Kal being a tragic hero will necessarily mean he is depressed, but I cede the point that it is more likely Dalinar or Adolin who will probably suffer next book.

[Dalinar_Kholin]

Yes, I see what you meant about Syl and I agree that she's been acting more like Kal. Also, by 'depression' I meant bad things have been happening to Kal from the start of the series and have never really let up, so I doubt Sanderson is going to end things with it being too tragic for him. Kal becoming the vessel of Odium seems too dark of a place to leave him off, even if he has control over the shard.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ he/him]

On 7/10/2023 at 10:28 AM, OdiYum said:

I think his fifth ideal will have to do with letting go of his needs, leading him to a blanket statement of “I will protect.”

I think that’s a good idea, and as I think about it, I realize that Taevangian, though through terrible means, has also claimed his goal to be of protection. I think that may be a difference between Tarvangian taking the shard, and Kaladin taking it. They protect I’m very different ways

[The Sibling she/her]

I wouldn't want this for Kaladin, because I feel like it would be such a horrible ending for his character. On the other hand, it might be really interesting. I'm starting to realize that I'm okay with stories not having happy endings. Anyways, the reason that I think it would be interesting is because it could cause the slow unraveling of Kaladin's ideals. Starting with the fourth,

"I accept that there are those I cannot protect." 

As a shard, I feel that Kaladin would start to believe that with his great power, he should be able to protect everyone. After he discovered his powers, he realized that he wasn't cursed, and then he felt like every one who he wasn't able to save was his fault. If he gained even more power, he might go through this again. Every time a person died, Kaladin would start to feel even worse. As a shard, he would out live all of his friends, and feel horrible for being unable to protect them.

I'm not sure how this would affect the third Ideal, but as the intent started to get to him, I think Kaladin would stop protecting people, or even start killing them claiming to be protecting them. He would see it this way because his perspective would be warped by the intent of the shard.

Anyways, that's not even mentioning what this would do to Syl. That's why I don't want this to happen. I love Syl.