Has Adolin Used Stormlight(Maybe Spoilers)?

[Guest]

Renarin compared to Learned & Giving; While he is geeky likable & earnest, we have other scholars outshining him, him being giving is not that obvious maybe a tad.

 

Jasnah compared to Wise & Care. Not her definitive traits imho. Nevani wishes more wisdom for jasnah to go with her intelligence.

 

Szeth compared to Just & Confident. I don't quite see this in Szeth as well, perhaps yet to.

 

The rest are acceptable though not entirely spot on

-Kaladin (Protecting & leading) ; spot on

-Lift (Loving  & healing ) ; love for food! healing sure

-Shallan (Honesty & Creativity); creativity for her artistic nature, honesty might be a stretch but perhaps she is on her way to there

-Dalinar (Pious & Guiding) ; acceptable

-Taln (Dependable & resourceful) ; I might wait for more to be revealed

 

I agree Renarin is not obvious as we know so little about him. His primary attribute is "learned" and I guess I could see him as such, with his way to try to read people. I also suspect a sickly boy prevented from learning to fight would spend his time learning other stuff. He does come out with more than average knowledge. He is not a scholar, but being a scholar does not mean one has "learned" as a first attribute. Personally, I believe the Truthwatchers's second oath will go along those lines: "I will seek knowledge where ever I can find it", which wouls fit Renarin greatly. As for the giving part, I believe the second attribute is something each knights has to work on. Renarin needs to learn to be more giving with his knowledge and stop hiding it.

 

I agree we could mistake Jasnah's first attribute with learned. However, she is a very wise person. She does not seek knowledge to learn, but to prove her theories and to me, it makes the whole difference. She is wise as she has experience and enough knowledge to know how to shape her opinions, straightening her facts before coming forward with them. She does not struggle with giving like Renarin, but she struggles with being careful with herself.

 

Szeth is so obsess with upholding the law, he goes into a killing spree because his oath stone requires it... He may have to learn to be more confident in his believe to avoid becoming everyone's favorite tool.

[kadolin]

I think a suitable context for each attribute might help but overall I wouldn't say its accurate enough.

 

Renarin being Learned should have some sort of knowledge involved, I still do not see that in him, his keen perception of people doesnt quite fit imo. I actually hoped through his spren, he is able to shed light on KR matters but we see him rather helpless while Shallan figured out the Oathgate. I am hoping our truthwatcher would be able to see more useful things in future, he seems to suffer scary visions of deaths so far.

 

Jasnah's main definitive trait is her intellect imo. Her pursue of knowledge, her intellectual discussions with Shallan, her reputation in the story all indicates intellect more so than wisdom. She didn't share her knowledge with Shallan before her assassination untill Shallan insisted, that was a lack in wisdom for example, things would be really bad if Shallan wasnt able to discover the Oathgate. The care attribute really depends on the context to make more sense, though I will just wait for her story to reveal more about her. 

[kari-no-sugata]

Regarding the Divine Attributes...

 

That I'm aware of, we have no WoB to clarify how they should be applied to Radiants. Anyone got anything?

 

Basically, I think a certain degree of caution should be applied: the Ars Arcanum are in-world documents for a start and it's not like the "Tens" stuff is listed as a "spotters guide to Radiants" either. I'm not saying it's useless or unrelated though! I strongly suspect that originally these "Divine Attributes" were for the Heralds, not the Radiants - but because the Radiants are based on the Heralds there is a certain degree of correlation.

 

For the Radiants, I think it is more important to look at what the spren are saying - actual events trump the Ars Arcanum. To take a clear example, Pattern never discourages Shallan from "lying" in general but is very specifically against her lying to herself. This does correlate well with what the in-world Words of Radiance book says about the Lightweavers. So yes, "honesty" is critically important to the Lightweavers but it's specifically about being honest with yourself (or seeing things as they really are) rather than honesty in general.

[Guest]

 

Renarin being Learned should have some sort of knowledge involved, I still do not see that in him, his keen perception of people doesnt quite fit imo. I actually hoped through his spren, he is able to shed light on KR matters but we see him rather helpless while Shallan figured out the Oathgate. I am hoping our truthwatcher would be able to see more useful things in future, he seems to suffer scary visions of deaths so far.

 

WoR was a very bad book for Renarin as a whole. He didn't do much and what he did do seem to come out of nowhere. Also, when he had a chance to actually be useful, he breaks down and cry which was really unnerving. I get it he is supposed to have been going through some mental turmoil, but we are not privy to it so it kinda of loses its signification.

 

We do see him trying to read his brother, but there was too little of that in WoR.

 

In WoK however, we got to see a better Renarin. The one who asks questions about stuff, the one who makes meaningful suggestions to prove his father's vision and thus stops the conflict between his father and his brother. I would also hazard Renarin's attribute may be less obvious due to Alethki men being prevented from having formal education. They do get some sort of education as we know, from Adolin's POV, he was tutored as a child by Ardent Kasbal on the history of Roshar. However, I suspect that education stops at an early age which would have prevented Renarin from really getting knowledge. Whatever he knows, he must have gathered through scraps and bits.

 

 

Jasnah's main definitive trait is her intellect imo. Her pursue of knowledge, her intellectual discussions with Shallan, her reputation in the story all indicates intellect more so than wisdom. She didn't share her knowledge with Shallan before her assassination untill Shallan insisted, that was a lack in wisdom for example, things would be really bad if Shallan wasnt able to discover the Oathgate. The care attribute really depends on the context to make more sense, though I will just wait for her story to reveal more about her. 

 

She had every reason not to trust Shallan at that point, so her refusal to share her knowledge was wisdom.

[kadolin]

She had every reason not to trust Shallan at that point, so her refusal to share her knowledge was wisdom.

 

Actually Jasnah has agreed before their journey to include Shallan in her research right after learning about her lies. She choose to trust Shallan since then. No further developments have caused Jasnah to lose her trust in Shallan. She has already revealed much about voidbringers, ghostbloods and stuff to her in WoK. Not much reason to hold back now. Besides, its not a matter of wealth but knowledge. She even went as far to set Shallan up with Adolin.

 

She knew the importance of her research and she knew she is being targetted by ghostbloods. If she was wise, she would have ensured that someone will continue her important work should any mishap occur. Shallan would be the best choice considering she is involved and she is most up to date, Nevani does not know or understand enough of the importance.

 

I think being able to discern what is the greater good is part of what wisdom is about. I think her trust in Shallan can be said to be wise, though again, she doesnt display this primary attribute often enough. XD

[Guest]

Actually Jasnah has agreed before their journey to include Shallan in her research right after learning about her lies. She choose to trust Shallan since then. No further developments have caused Jasnah to lose her trust in Shallan. She has already revealed much about voidbringers, ghostbloods and stuff to her in WoK. Not much reason to hold back now. Besides, its not a matter of wealth but knowledge. She even went as far to set Shallan up with Adolin.

 

She knew the importance of her research and she knew she is being targetted by ghostbloods. If she was wise, she would have ensured that someone will continue her important work should any mishap occur. Shallan would be the best choice considering she is involved and she is most up to date, Nevani does not know or understand enough of the importance.

 

I think being able to discern what is the greater good is part of what wisdom is about. I think her trust in Shallan can be said to be wise, though again, she doesnt display this primary attribute often enough. XD

 

I do get your point, but it could be Jasnah did not feel compelled to share everything with Shallan in the scope of a few days... She surely did not intend to get "killed"... I think she was wise to give out information in a structured and timely manner as, afterall, she is Shallan's mentor and her role of one of teaching. As for the betrothal to Adolin, two things: she is trying to attach Shallan to her family and she is trying to protect her cousin by giving him a Radiant wife. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if she had other intentions regarding these two........ I thought perhaps her intent was, in the long run, to set them as king and queen of both Alethkar and Jah Keved, but it may be far-fetched. She clearly had plans other then safeguarding Shallan's family as she chose Adolin and not Renarin as a potential match.

 

You argue she should have shared more knowing the Ghostblood were after her and not doing so was a lack of wisdom... Actually I feel it was more a lack of carefulness and she did toyed with the idea of sharing everything with her mother, but she felt she had to find more evidence as to the Parshendi's role in the upcoming Desolation. It was a wise course of actions and, as I said, she surely did not think any assassination attempt would work.

 

As for her not displaying her first attribute often enough, I feel it is the issue we have with most proto-radiants besides Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar who have been more fleshed out. Jasnah was not exploited enough as a character, just like Renarin for us to really get a sense of their Radianhood, which is why certain people, such as myself, were annoyed by Renarin becoming one to begin with.

[kadolin]

.. Jasnah did not feel compelled to share everything with Shallan in the scope of a few days... She surely did not intend to get "killed"... I think she was wise to give out information in a structured and timely manner as, afterall, she is Shallan's mentor and her role of one of teaching.

She was glad she shared after Shallan insisted, something she should have realized on her own if she haz wisdom.

 

As for the betrothal to Adolin, two things: she is trying to attach Shallan to her family and she is trying to protect her cousin by giving him a Radiant wife. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if she had other intentions regarding these two........ I thought perhaps her intent was, in the long run, to set them as king and queen of both Alethkar and Jah Keved, but it may be far-fetched. She clearly had plans other then safeguarding Shallan's family as she chose Adolin and not Renarin as a potential match.

Choosing the eldest for marriage is common practice. I sense more than just practical reasons for her endorsement of the betrothal, otherwise it would be too callous of her as if she doesn't care enough for Adolin. She must trust Shallan reasonably to include her as family, which was my original point. 

 

You argue she should have shared more knowing the Ghostblood were after her and not doing so was a lack of wisdom... Actually I feel it was more a lack of carefulness and she did toyed with the idea of sharing everything with her mother, but she felt she had to find more evidence as to the Parshendi's role in the upcoming Desolation. It was a wise course of actions and, as I said, she surely did not think any assassination attempt would work.

It is wise to take precautions and this lack of care just clash with the secondary attribute.

 

Anyway, the divine attributes are not spot on for every KR, as much as we wish it would be so, perhaps they will develop more of it along the way.

[Guest]

 

 

She was glad she shared after Shallan insisted, something she should have realized on her own if she haz wisdom.

 

 

Being wise does not mean one can never make mistake... Kaladin is protective and he did made many mistakes regarding his first attribute... I guess we may have different views on the matter, but I'll concede it is not clear. Jasnah has not been fleshed out enough for us to really get a sense of her personality which is why I think it is harder to connect her to her attributes.

 

 

Choosing the eldest for marriage is common practice. I sense more than just practical reasons for her endorsement of the betrothal, otherwise it would be too callous of her as if she doesn't care enough for Adolin. She must trust Shallan reasonably to include her as family, which was my original point. 

 

 

True. The Kohlins must be getting desperate to marry Adolin by now

 

However, Shallan is so much under his station, her union to the Kohlin heir would be seen as inappropriate by many. It is only her status as Jasnah's ward that made it possible, that and the complete discouragement Dalinar and Navani must be feeling over Adolin's long list of failed courtships. After Jasnah's death, Dalinar was not so keen in keeping up with the betrothal and the only reason he let it go forward is because he notices Adolin actually seem to like Shallan... Dalinar has a romantic streak (who would have thought ) and he wants his son to marry for love, but he does mention he needed answers on her house status before establishing something more formal. Meaning is House Davar is proven to much below House Kohlin, he may stop the union or this is how I read it. Little chance of that happening now that Shallan turned out being a Radiant, though.

 

The marriage of a girl from an unimportant impoverish foreign house would better pass is the prospect was the second son. Shallan does mention it to Jasnah and she does ask her why she didn't chose to make the casual with Renarin. The fact that she asks about it leads me to believe it would not have been this badly seen to marry the second son before the first one. Jasnah did not respond by claiming it would not be proper, she respond by saying she has much to offer to Adolin and that he is going to need someone like her in the future.

 

Imo, I wouldn't be surprised if she had other expectations for these two. Maybe she didn't, but it could be she did.

 

 

It is wise to take precautions and this lack of care just clash with the secondary attribute.

 

 

Well you know, no matter how much we discuss, we could always use the argument carelessness is in real a lack of wisdom.... Strange how this order's attributes work out, no? Or maybe have we latched unto something else?

[kadolin]

Suddenly occured to me that "care" could just mean concern instead of careful. Like how much she cares about stopping the everstorm. But back to topic, if Adolin has used stormlight, some spren would be involved and mentioned at least.

Although it could as subtle as Renarin getting perfect vision again..(that red herring about him refusing to wear rather than not needing it.) So I suppose its not too far fetch to think that his "supernatural" instincts to dodge could turn out to be some spren related.

Edited August 4, 2014 by kadolin

[Guest]

Suddenly occured to me that "care" could just mean concern instead of careful. Like how much she cares about stopping the everstorm. But back to topic, if Adolin has used stormlight, some spren would be involved and mentioned at least.

Although it could as subtle as Renarin getting perfect vision again..(that red herring about him refusing to wear rather than not needing it.) So I suppose its not too far fetch to think that his "supernatural" instincts to dodge could turn out to be some spren related.

 

Personally, if it was spren related, I am tempted to say his blade spoke to him... I know, this is really far-fetched, but this is what I thought at first DUCK scene: his dead blade is reawakening and it is trying to help him. He was dizzy at the time and he kept mentioning how his head hurt when it happened, so it could be it did not even noticed something spoke to him. If not, then why would he yell DUCK into his own head? How would he know? He was fighting a tarp when it happened, he was blinded by it, no way he could have known Szeth was on the verge to slice his head of.....

 

The battle for the Oathgate is the first one where we know Adolin has lost the Thrill. It occurs a few weeks after Adolin fought the 4 shardbearers (and refused to give up no matter the consequences to himself), a few days after the prison incident and he gave out shards to a darkeye. I could be all these events sparkled a potential bound with a potential spren, ie his sword.

 

I must admit, there is a lot of wishful thinking here and I am really a big fan of the Adolin revived his blade's spren theory. So it is worth what it is worth.

[kadolin]

I kinda want him to use the windrunner honorblade and Shallan/Jasnah to work together to revive the blades (since deadspren blades dont activate the ancient fabrials, I wonder what else is significant about it)

Theoretically if the spren was healed, it would revert back to its Shadesmar form, the spren would have to go through the selection and evolving bond process again to become a blade assuming it would want to do so again. I wonder what would that accomplish.

Some WoB quotes worth considering

Q: What’s the difference between a Dawnshard and a Shardblade?
A : They’re actually, they… You will find out. (laughter) I can’t really reveal that right now, because that’s a RAFO. I’ve got RAFO cards that I can give you that say “Sorry I can’t answer your question.”

Q: Is it possible then to reawaken a shard blade if that blade is wielded by someone who speaks the oaths of a Knights Radiant?A: (Thinking)...Yes, but it would be extremely difficult. The spren in a shardblade are not trapped in a state of mid-transformation like the Elantrians. They are stuck in an agony cycle after having a significant portion of their consciousnesses ripped out of them. The Nahel bond is what allows Spren to think on [the] material plane and that has been torn away. It would be like having a data jack installed and then having someone come up to your head and rip it out of your head.

Edited August 4, 2014 by kadolin

[Guest]

I kinda want him to use the windrunner honorblade and Shallan/Jasnah to work together to revive the blades (since deadspren blades dont activate the ancient fabrials, I wonder what else is significant about it)

 

I kinda want him to refuse the honorblade thinking himself unworthy following the events in the tunnels. I like the idea of Shallan/Jasnah working on trying to revive the dead blade.

 

Quote

Q: What’s the difference between a Dawnshard and a Shardblade?

A : They’re actually, they… You will find out. (laughter) I can’t really reveal that right now, because that’s a RAFO. I’ve got RAFO cards that I can give you that say “Sorry I can’t answer your question.”

Q: Is it possible then to reawaken a shard blade if that blade is wielded by someone who speaks the oaths of a Knights Radiant?A: (Thinking)...Yes, but it would be extremely difficult. The spren in a shardblade are not trapped in a state of mid-transformation like the Elantrians. They are stuck in an agony cycle after having a significant portion of their consciousnesses ripped out of them. The Nahel bond is what allows Spren to think on [the] material plane and that has been torn away. It would be like having a data jack installed and then having someone come up to your head and rip it out of your head.

 

I have seen those before.... In a way, he says it is not completely impossible, but in another he says it is highly improbable....  So yeah, the reviving the shardblade theory is probably a goner, but I still like it, a lot.