Regrowth?

[discipleofhoid he/him]

We know that every order had 2 shared abilities and something special for them self. What if that unique thing is just an way of combining the to abilities in a special way. Like while windrunners shared gravity with one order and pressure with another the windrunners are the only one that are able to use the lashings.

Do you have a quote for the something special to themselves? I hadn't ever heard that. (Of course that probably means that it is common knowledge and now I look like a neanderthal.)

[Zhevir he/him]

the post above mine made by discipleofhoid

[discipleofhoid he/him]

the post above mine made by discipleofhoid

Yes I did post that quote - Ok I see your interpretation, I was reading it as already saying what you posted. That basically the two subpowers made what each order could do unique. You didn't assume that from the reading I did. Thus why I was confused.

I assume this is the line we are talking about:

There were 10 orders of Knights Radiant. Each order was based on a combination of two of the "smaller" magic systems in this world, so to speak. You combine two of them together and they each had something kind of "their own".

Edited December 12, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[Zhevir he/him]

Yes that is the line

[Aiken Frost he/him]

Maybe the Reverse Lashing, the technique to give objects its own gravitational pull, is something of a fusion of the gravity and pressure lashes, not exclusively gravitational.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

nah, I think the something of there own for the Windrunners has something to do with Kaladin's storm-riding dream.

[Windrunner he/him]

So for Surges we have:

• Gravity-Windrunners and Order 10
  
• Pressure- Windrunners and Order 2
  
• Travel
  
• Transformation-Soulcasting, Jasnah and Shallan's Orders
  
• Light-similar to Lightweaving (I'll find the quote if you want)
  
• Heat?-Melting Stone Maybe Dustbringers
  
• Regrowth?-Maybe Stonewards
  

Assuming all of those are right, we have seven surges. However I'm still not sold on Regrowth being a Surge. In no other point in the text has any Radiant or someone using the powers of the Radiants used an object to perform their surgebinding. Sure this could be a Radiant using a fabrial to access the powers of another order. But not all fabrials fit directly with the surges. Navani's pain knife and emotion reader don't seem to be surges. Also Regrowth doesn't seem to fit to me. Brandon said that magic of Roshar is about manipulating fundamental forces, and I don't think that Regrowth if fundamental enough.

Funnily enough, the fact that flesh doesn't really repair itself but regrows reminds me of

Alloy of Law Spoilers

when they pee the burned skin off Wayne's back

[hoser he/him]

In no other point in the text has any Radiant or someone using the powers of the Radiants used an object to perform their surgebinding.

What about the Soulcasters - precious ancient fabrials used by the ardents that mimic the transformation abilities of the Radiants?

[dj26792 he/him]

I can't remember the quote but Im pretty sure it says somewhere that the first fabrials were used to mimic the powers of the radiants and only more recently did they diversify into other things.

[fiveAM he/him]

I always thought Regrowth was part of Soulcasting.. I never really thought of it as a separate Surge.

The Way of Kings, Hardcover, page 306

"I should save Regrowth for others who might be wounded..."

I don't know about you but the way the Radiant mentioned Regrowth seemed more like it to be a specific ability within her Ability/Surge. She doesn't say, "I should save my strength" but that she should save Regrowth. It sounds like Regrowth is limited in use, but the way she specifically mentions it makes it sound like she could run out of Regrowth but still be able to use other skills. This makes sense since she needed to use the topaz and heliodor to cast Regrowth. This action makes it like Soulcasting, which requires use of gems as a catalyst/power source(as the gem is sacrificed). Of course other Surges may require gems too, but I still think Regrowth is just a part of Soulcasting in the Blood category probably). Descriptions of the use of Soulcasting nowadays make it seem like Soulcasting is a sort of a lost art and people are still discovering how to do stuff that the Radiants knew long ago, and like the One Power in WoT where they call certain weaves by a name, like Traveling and Healing, it could just be a name for a particular skill in Soulcasting.

[dj26792 he/him]

See I assumed that saving regrowth meant saving the stormlight in the fabrial she was using to do it because she wasn't capable of it herself.

Also I'm not sure thats how soulcasting works, the gems aren't sacrificed, or necessary. Shallan and Jasnah both take in the stormlight and soulcast of their own power (as far as I can figure), and the soulcasters use different gems for different essences because they arent as good as the surgebinders. In neither case is the gem destroyed unless it is drained to far too quickly in which case it cracks, not from being used to soulcast (necessarily) just from being overdrawn. (That bit I am sure about)

[Aeshdan he/him]

Hi Kaurne,

I think that Regrowth is a different ability, but ReaderAt2046's suggestion above, as I interpret it, seems possible, in which case it might not be a specific ability.

Hope this helps.

Regrowth, on my theory, is still a specific ability. It merely uses the same mechanic as the Stormlight healing that all Surgebinders have. But, as I pointed out, it can be used on anyone, it's faster, and it can appearantly be worked at will.

[Aeshdan he/him]

I always thought Regrowth was part of Soulcasting.. I never really thought of it as a separate Surge.

Of course other Surges may require gems too, but I still think Regrowth is just a part of Soulcasting in the Blood category probably).

If Regrowth is a form of soulcasting it would have to be flesh and bone, not blood. (because of the gems used.)

[Kaurne]

So for Surges we have:

• Gravity-Windrunners and Order 10
  
• Pressure- Windrunners and Order 2
  
• Travel
  
• Transformation-Soulcasting, Jasnah and Shallan's Orders
  
• Light-similar to Lightweaving (I'll find the quote if you want)
  
• Heat?-Melting Stone Maybe Dustbringers
  
• Regrowth?-Maybe Stonewards
  

Assuming all of those are right, we have seven surges. However I'm still not sold on Regrowth being a Surge. In no other point in the text has any Radiant or someone using the powers of the Radiants used an object to perform their surgebinding. Sure this could be a Radiant using a fabrial to access the powers of another order. But not all fabrials fit directly with the surges. Navani's pain knife and emotion reader don't seem to be surges. Also Regrowth doesn't seem to fit to me. Brandon said that magic of Roshar is about manipulating fundamental forces, and I don't think that Regrowth if fundamental enough.

Funnily enough, the fact that flesh doesn't really repair itself but regrows reminds me of

Alloy of Law Spoilers

when they pee the burned skin off Wayne's back

Like 5AM said, I don't think Regrowth is a surge. To me it sounds more like the term 'Lashing'. If we try and forget what we already know about Windrunning, would you consider 'Lashing' as a natural force? No. If you were told that it was a name for manipulating a natural force in a certain way, you may well eventually decide the force being referred to is gravity.

In the same way, I think the Regrowth is just a name for one specific application of a specific form of surgebinding. Perhaps it is from a fabrial (it would certainly be good sense to bring along a fabrial to heal if you can't do it yourself) and perhaps not. As for the idea about it being a way of reapplying the stormlight healing, then that would be, with respect, somewhat unimportant.

I strongly doubt it is something that can be done by any order of Knights Radiant - otherwise the other Knight there would have been doing it. As such, it must be the application of a surge available to two of the orders, either Soulcasting or some other Surge. Thus, whether it is an acceleration of Stormlight healing or some other form of healing, then it is still one way of utilising a surge.

I still think it likely represents the surge of life, or perhaps healing? or growth. Considering the other surges aren't exactly all scientific forces, I don't see why life can't be a surge.

[fiveAM he/him]

See I assumed that saving regrowth meant saving the stormlight in the fabrial she was using to do it because she wasn't capable of it herself.

Also I'm not sure thats how soulcasting works, the gems aren't sacrificed, or necessary. Shallan and Jasnah both take in the stormlight and soulcast of their own power (as far as I can figure), and the soulcasters use different gems for different essences because they arent as good as the surgebinders. In neither case is the gem destroyed unless it is drained to far too quickly in which case it cracks, not from being used to soulcast (necessarily) just from being overdrawn. (That bit I am sure about)

Actually, I would say that FABRIALS aren't necessary, but gems/spheres seem to be.

The Way of Kings, Hardcover, page 969

"Idiot' girl!"

Jasnah repeated. "You have no idea how dangerous that was. Visiting Shadesmar with only a single dim sphere? Idiot!"

IF we see visiting Shadesmar as an extension of Soulcasting and not some other ability, though it appear to be the case from Jasnah's confirmation of the symbolheads to be related to Shadesmar and Soulcasting (Hardcover page 978) It appears visiting Shadesmar (Soulcasting) and surviving/manipulating the beads requires gems/spheres and it is folly to do so without any but a single dim sphere.

The Way of Kings, Hardcover, page 684

"Shallan," Jasnah's voice said, anxious, very soft. "I'm going to have to Soulcast your blood to purify it... "Hush, child. Where is that garnet!" "You can't Soulcast" Shallan said weakly, pulling the ties of her pouch open. She upended it, vaguely seeing a fuzzy golden object slip out onto the floor, alongside the garnet that Kabsal had given her. Stormfather! Why was the room spinning so much? Jasnah gasped. Distantly."

This part is very revealing:

(1) Jasnah cares for Shallan and wants to save her, and time is of the essence.

(2) Jasnah needs a garnet, which her Soulcaster does not have.

(3) If Jasnah did NOT need gems to Soulcast, With someone close to her dying and no one around her who knows how a Soulcaster really works(no need to hide/easily explain later) why not just go ahead and Soulcast Shallan blood? Why NEED a garnet?

Jasnah's facade of not needing a Soulcaster to Soulcast is preserved either way, so why need a garnet so bad?

The Way of Kings, Hardcover, page 968

Jasnah's violet eyes showed a glimmer of surprise.

"Yes," Shallan said, "that long ago. You didn't replcae it with a decoy. You didn't know you'd been tricked until I got out the fabrial and let you save me with it. It's all a lie, Jasnah"

With the 2nd quote above, and this one here, we see that Jasnah was completely unaware that her Soulcaster had been swapped. So we can safely say that Jasnah was not trying to corner Shallan into confessing/revealing her switching of the Soulcaster in that situation. Besides, that sort of round-about way of doing things doesn't seem to be Jasnah's style.

Every other time we've seen Jasnah Soulcast we've seen her gems grow dim or crack, etc. I know when Jasnah attacks the footpads and kills them, it explicitly says her smokestone crystal gem cracks. In this scene, Jasnah also seems a bit lax on showing Shallan (True) Soulcasting with the lightning, not requiring to touch the object physically to Soulcast it. If that's the case, why let the smokestone crack thus making it so she needs to buy a new one? With only Shallan around, Jasnah could have not cracked the gem and keep using it to preserve the lie.

Wow this reply grew long... Anyways, from all this, whether Regrowth is a part of Soulcasting or not(thought i still think it is), I would say Soulcasting does require gems, and infused gems seem to be better, if not necessary (first quote), but Soulcasting does NOT require a Soulcaster fabrial, although with this, one can also Soulcast though less effectively (no physical touch Soulcasting) and possibly to a less extent (unable to enter Shadesmar, high level Soulcasting impossible?).

Edited December 13, 2011 by fiveAM

[Aeshdan he/him]

On this point: Light is the fuel for Soulcasting, Surgebinding, and everything else the Radiants do. Apparently Soulcasting only works if the Light is drawn from a gem of the appropriate Essence. i.e. Shallan turned the goblet into blood because she used garnet, Jasnah used ruby for turning a thief to fire, diamond for glass, and smokestone for smoke, etc.

[dj26792 he/him]

IF we see visiting Shadesmar as an extension of Soulcasting and not some other ability, though it appear to be the case from Jasnah's confirmation of the symbolheads to be related to Shadesmar and Soulcasting (Hardcover page 978) It appears visiting Shadesmar (Soulcasting) and surviving/manipulating the beads requires gems/spheres and it is folly to do so without any but a single dim sphere.

In regards to this I assumed that was more to do with the lack of stormlight than the lack of gems.

however Jasnah needing the garnet to soulcast blood does change things, but I still think the rest of my comment holds true. The gems only crack when overdrawn and otherwise can be used indefinitely. Also I still think that Regrowth is a surge, the description says the wounds grew closed, every example of soulcasting we have is an instant change, so I'm fairly confident that it isn't soulcasting. It may be an application of another unseen surge, or a surge of its own, but I really don't think its soulcasting.

[Windrunner he/him]

In no other point in the text has any Radiant or someone using the powers of the Radiants used an object to perform their surgebinding.

I'm sorry for this, I wasn't disputing the fact that transformation is a surge and and that fabrials called soulcasters can do a weaker version of this. When I said someone using the powers of the Radiants, I was actually thinking about Szeth, since he's not a Radiant. This was my last post of the night and I was running on empty, so I'm sorry that I said something that could have multiple interpretations.

Like 5AM said, I don't think Regrowth is a surge. To me it sounds more like the term 'Lashing'. If we try and forget what we already know about Windrunning, would you consider 'Lashing' as a natural force? No. If you were told that it was a name for manipulating a natural force in a certain way, you may well eventually decide the force being referred to is gravity.

This is a good point, Regrowth does sound a lot like Lashing. But would you agree with me that if Regrowth may be the subset of some Surge except Transformation? (& Gravity & Pressure & Travel of course) Regrowth doesn't seem to fit well under Transformation but maybe that's just because we don't really understand how the Surge works.

I was just thinking, does each Order interpret their shared Surges the same way? Like does Order 2 perform the full lashing with the Pressure Surge, and Order 10 perform the basic and reverse lashings with the Gravity Surge? It seems to me that it might be more interesting if they manipulated the Surge differently depending on their order and we would get to see more cool powers!

Edited December 13, 2011 by Windrunner

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I was just thinking, does each Order interpret their shared Surges the same way? Like does Order 2 perform the full lashing with the Pressure Surge, and Order 10 perform the basic and reverse lashings with the Gravity Surge? It seems to me that it might be more interesting if they manipulated the Surge differently depending on their order and we would get to see more cool powers!

This would also explain Brandon's comment about 30 magic systems. Each power has two interpretations, plus each order gets one "combination" power. That's 30 "different" powers right there.

[Windrunner he/him]

This would also explain Brandon's comment about 30 magic systems. Each power has two interpretations, plus each order gets one "combination" power. That's 30 "different" powers right there.

This makes perfect sense! I didn't realize that each order got a special combo power. Is it general consensus that the Windrunner's combo power is riding the Storm? I was going to say that visiting Shadesmar could be Shallan's combo power, but Jasnah goes there too and she's in a different order. Wait, Shoot! Jasnah and Shallan both Soulcast so they have the same power. Unless they do it in different ways? I seem to remember Jasnah saying that something was different between them but she might have just been referring to their different orders.

[fiveAM he/him]

every example of soulcasting we have is an instant change, so I'm fairly confident that it isn't soulcasting. It may be an application of another unseen surge, or a surge of its own, but I really don't think its soulcasting.

This is a good point, Regrowth does sound a lot like Lashing. But would you agree with me that if Regrowth may be the subset of some Surge except Transformation? (& Gravity & Pressure & Travel of course) Regrowth doesn't seem to fit well under Transformation but maybe that's just because we don't really understand how the Surge works.

Hmm.. the fact about soulcasting being instant while Regrowth seems gradual bring a new perspective for me, I totally missed that. I am inclined to say that it is very likely that Regrowth is not soulcasting, but I don't think that necessarily puts Soulcasting completely off the table. But in any case, Regrowth seems to probably be of another Surge that like Soulcasting uses gems as a medium/catalyst/whatever, but I still think Regrowth is not an actual Surge itself but an application of it, like Basic Lashings.

[Windrunner he/him]

I am inclined to say that it is very likely that Regrowth is not soulcasting, but I don't think that necessarily puts Soulcasting completely off the table. But in any case, Regrowth seems to probably be of another Surge that like Soulcasting uses gems as a medium/catalyst/whatever, but I still think Regrowth is not an actual Surge itself but an application of it, like Basic Lashings.

Hmm I never noticed that. Windrunners actually breath in the Stormlight but Soulcasters apparently don't, they stay it stays in the gems. I wonder if that has something to do with the body focuses? Windrunners body focus is inhalation and they breath in Stormlight. The Order that Shallan is most commonly believed to be in is Shash, and the focus of that is the blood. When Shallan does her Soulcasting does it mention anything about her blood?(Aside from the fact that her first Soulcasting was to blood which might be a coincidence)

Edited December 14, 2011 by Windrunner

[Wispsy he/him]

I don't think regrowth is soulcasting altho I have just been convinced of the necessity of everything needing specific gems but they soulcast buildings from air in stages which takes time, so there is no reason that soulcasting air to new flesh all in the right places would be as instant as turning a solid object into something pure

[ulyssessword he/him]

I don't think that Shallan's Soulcasting was instant (though, it could have been).

Beside her, the goblet on her nightstand melted, the glass becoming red liquid, dropping the three spheres inside to the nightstand's flooded top.

If it was an instant transformation, it probably would have said that the goblet "had melted" instead, as she wouldn't have had time to see the actual change.

[Wispsy he/him]

Jasnahs turning smoke to stone was pretty quick tho, and they were both pure elements or whatever