Questions on the nature of Shards and Returned animals

[ShyGuy]

Hello there, I am a new poster but a long time lurker. I have recently completed WoR and have been looking a lot more into magic crossing worlds. So far it seems only that for one type of magic to cross Shards it must be formed and then transported (Hoid being the prime example, taking his Allomancy to Roshar, or his Lightweaving to a different Shard, etc.)

 

That being said, my question is about the nature of Endowment and more specifically, the Returned. In Warbreaker, Endowment sends people back to fulfill some purpose, investing in them the Divine Breath. Is this something that is specific to Endowment, or would it be possible, in theory, for any of the Shards to send people back, investing them with the power of the particular Shard.

 

Another question is; could Endowment send a person back, but through Shadesmar into another Shardworld? Could a person die but be invested with Divine Breath and then sent to Roshar through the Cognitive Realm?

 

I'm not sure if I fully understand the nature of dying and how it plays into Realmatic Theory enough to be asking these questions. They may be answered simply with a bit more research, but I can't seem to find anything solid to prove or disprove this either way.

 

I understand that the magic of each Shard is unique, and by taking it to a different world it might work differently, but the way Shadesmar connects the worlds it seems likely that the Shards could interact through the lifeforms carrying their particular investitures. Odium can move around and meddle in different Shardworlds, so are the Shards aware of what goes on in worlds other than the ones over which they preside?

 

Edit: I just recalled a Q&A that I read where Brandon mentioned that there may be some relation to the Royal Locks and the way hair color manifests in the inhabitants of Roshar. He also said outright that Vasher comes to Roshar because there is something he can find there much easier than on Nalthis. Stormlight is taken in by breathing, and Shallan discovers that she can invest power into gems by breathing. There is also mention of Nightblood draining investiture from the user, whether it be Breath or Stormlight. Maybe there is some connection between these two particular Shards that I'm missing.

 

This question arose from a strange idea I had that Ryshadium are Returned horses.... which might be completely nutty, but don't they look like what you would imagine a Returned horse would look like?

 

I will keep searching but if anyone out there with more understanding of this stuff could drop some knowledge on me I would appreciate it greatly. 

Edited July 2, 2014 by ShyGuy

[Tempus]

Cross-world effects on Investiture are tricky, partially because they're complicated, but mostly because we have so few examples to base our theories on. In general, you should be okay following these rules:

 

• A Shard could probably do anything, if they tried hard enough, but they have some serious issues preventing them from doing more than a few limited things.
• Assume that there are no Returned on Roshar (Other than Vasher) until we have evidence otherwise (we don't. People keep pipe dreaming it, but there just isn't any yet)
• The simplest explanation that accounts for the entire situation is usually right - Rhyshadium could be Returned, but it's much more clean and simple to suggest that it's just a similar effect produced by Roshar magic, rather than introduce insane cross-world things into the mix.

[lyht]

That being said, my question is about the nature of Endowment and more specifically, the Returned. In Warbreaker, Endowment sends people back to fulfill some purpose, investing in them the Divine Breath. Is this something that is specific to Endowment, or would it be possible, in theory, for any of the Shards to send people back, investing them with the power of the particular Shard.

 

Wow! Some massive thoughts and questions. Quite a lot for one of your first posts. I will just focus on your first one.

 

There is nothing that definitively quantifies the various powers and abilities of Shards. We know some of their powers, because we have seen them do some things, and we know they are limited in some ways, either by ability or various rules. We know, for example, that Preservation and Ruin could only create together. Neither seemed to have that power by themselves.

 

However, we have also seen that any single power available in one magic system can usually be replicated in some way by another magic system. Could this translate to the Shards themselves? Could they do similar things, but just in different ways?

 

When Sazed mentioned he could not bring back Vin and Elend, it sounded like it was just something he had not yet figured out how to do, but he thought it was possible. 

 

So... nothing for sure, but here is my opinion: Yes, I think every Shard could do it. I think each may do it in a slightly different way, so may not even require granting of investiture to keep the person alive. But I also think it may be possible that some wouldn't because of nature, or would be kept from doing it because of some rule or something.

[ShyGuy]

I read something that Brandon said about why Sazed couldn't bring them back. It seems as though their souls went to a place that he couldn't touch yet. Maybe Endowment has been a Shard long enough to know how, which leads me to believe that the other Shards could as well, if they chose to. It makes me wonder why it is that Endowment saw it as important to put it's hand into the affairs of the people of Nalthis in such an extreme way. 

 

Also, if Vasher can find investiture on Roshar that can help him in Awakening, then it's safe to assume that Breath and Stormlight are similar in their function, especially considering that Nightblood is said to drain investiture in the same way, no matter what type. I suppose it's possible that other shards could grant people with Splinters like Divine Breaths, if in fact they have the same access to souls that have passed on like Endowment does (assuming it requires the being to die before they can be invested with Splinters)

 

I agree that it's safe to assume there aren't Returned on Roshar, simply because there isn't any direct evidence to support it. This was just an idea that popped into my head when I first read about the Ryshadium; ("They look like what I would imagine a Returned horse would look like")  Which lead to my questions about whether or not all Shards could potentially influence other worlds the way Odium does., and also if Shards can grant Splinters to their worlds' inhabitants. 

 

Are there any other known Splinters besides Divine Breath?

[Tempus]

Divine Breath, Spren, Nightblood, Seons, and Skaze are all Splinters. There are some other things we've seen that could be Splinters, as they have similar characteristics, but it's unclear at this point.

[Moogle]

I read something that Brandon said about why Sazed couldn't bring them back. It seems as though their souls went to a place that he couldn't touch yet. Maybe Endowment has been a Shard long enough to know how, which leads me to believe that the other Shards could as well, if they chose to. It makes me wonder why it is that Endowment saw it as important to put it's hand into the affairs of the people of Nalthis in such an extreme way.

 

Endowment likely grabs souls before they leave the Realms, or Returns people just as they die. We see in Words of Radiance that it is really important to revive people fast. Harmony was likely just too slow for Vin/Elend because he was busy having internal conflicts.

 

Are there any other known Splinters besides Divine Breath?

 

Offhand:

• Honorspren (and presumably all Nahel-bonding spren, and probably just all spren period)
• Seons in Elantris
• Arguably Nightblood
• Probably Heralds, who functions similarly to the Returned (and by extension, The Unmade)

Honorblades might also count. The general rule is, if it has a mind and is chock-full of Investiture, it probably has a Splinter. Brandon has been inconsistent in what he terms Splinters. He's directly said "A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness", but then he goes and says that Divine Breaths are Splinters.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Moogle

[Tempus]

My personal opinion is that Returned are not souls, but Cognitive Shadows. I have proof, but haven't started working on it yet, haha. It solves the above quote you finished with, Moogle.

 

Arguably Nightblood is a splinter fair, but it's more a matter of terminology. Nightblood is, by WoB, fundamentally the same as a Splinter, has all the known or expected properties of a Splinter. Is it exactly a Splinter...? Is passes the duck test, which is good enough for me.

[ShyGuy]

I would be interested to read what you have to say about Cognitive Shadows. Does that mean they are projections from the Cognitive Realm based on what the perception of them is by observers, themselves, or even Shards?

 

I am trying to better understand Realmatic Theory to get an idea of Shadesmar and whether or not the Shards are connected strongly enough to influence one another at a distance. 

 

If Nightblood is a Splinter that can utilize different investitures to achieve the same end result, would it be possible for other Splinters to do the same? Could a Returned consume Stormlight to stay alive? Or is the Divine Breath the actual Splinter and not the Returned themselves?

Edited July 2, 2014 by ShyGuy

[Moogle]

Could a Returned consume Stormlight to stay alive? Or is the Divine Breath the actual Splinter and not the Returned themselves?

 

It's commonly accepted (and basically confirmed by WoB) that Vasher is on Roshar precisely because he can live off of Stormlight.

 

All the magic systems can be powered with other Investiture. We have a directly WoB that Allomancy can be powered with Breath, for example.

 

And yes, the Divine Breath itself is the Splinter, much like Seons are not Splinters, it's the Aon at the heart of them that is the Splinter. You can view Splinters as the "core" of people/things with a wrapper around them that gives them an actual personality and whatnot.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Moogle

[ShyGuy]

And yes, the Divine Breath itself is the Splinter, much like Seons are not Splinters, it's the Aon at the heart of them that is the Splinter. You can view Splinters as the "core" of people/things with a wrapper around them that gives them an actual personality and whatnot.

 

So how does that apply to the spren? Would Syl be the Splinter or the bond she can form/power she can grant a Radiant? Maybe I'm not fully understanding the nature of spren and how they relate to the Shard's power. 

 

If spren exist in the Cognitive Realm then wouldn't they have the chance to manifest in other worlds?

 

 

It's commonly accepted (and basically confirmed by WoB) that Vasher is on Roshar precisely because he can live off of Stormlight.

 

 

This leads me to assume that Stormlight is the equivalent version of the Breath of the Stormfather.

Edited July 2, 2014 by ShyGuy

[Moogle]

So how does that apply to the spren? Would Syl be the Splinter or the bond she can form/power she can grant a Radiant? Maybe I'm not fully understanding the nature of spren and how they relate to the Shard's power. 

 

If spren exist in the Cognitive Realm then wouldn't they have the chance to manifest in other worlds?

 

All spren are based on Spiritual Ideals, even though they are Cognitive entities mostly (termed "transformative cognitive entities" in the Ars Arcanum of WoR). Out in the Spiritual Realm, there's an Ideal of Fire. Flamespren are based on that. WoB:

Q: Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

A:  Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Q: And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

A:  Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so <sounds hesitant> "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

Q: So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

A:  You are... [LONG pause] You are, um, on the right track.  Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of diety, right?  And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the diety Endowment, correct?  And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is yes, kind of true, yes.

Q:  But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

A:  Yes, yes, yes exactly.

(source)

 

Syl herself is likely like the Seons. Investiture (Honor + Cultivation) found a Spiritual ideal of honor (or perhaps not honor, but instead a more general 'leadership' ideal which fuses protection/leadership), and then attached itself to this ideal and brought 'life' to it. Shallan/Jasnah explains it this way:

"You told me spren are fragments of the Cognitive Realm that have somehow gained sentience because of human attention. Well, it stands to reason that they were something before. Like . . . like a painting was a canvas before being given life.”

...

“So, before the spren were alive, they were something. Power. Energy. Zen-daughter-Vath sketched tiny spren she found sometimes around heavy objects. Gravitationspren— fragments of the power or force that causes us to fall. It stands to reason that every spren was a power before it was a spren."

 

The "power" or "energy" Shallan speaks of was likely just Investiture.

 

Also, it should go without saying, but we really don't have a firm grasp on Realmatic theory. Most everything I write about it is speculation. You sort of begin to get a rough picture of it after you trawl all the interviews Brandon's done, though.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Moogle

[ShyGuy]

Awesome information, thank you. Sorry it took a while to respond, I've been out of town with no internet. 

 

I would still like to pursue the idea of the Stormfather investing gems with Breath of some sort. I think I may start a new topic discussing some other ideas that have occurred to me over the week of reading my notes. 

 

I'm not giving up on Returned horses though Geezus that would just be killer... unlikely, but killer.

[Mistdork]

My personal opinion is that Returned are not souls, but Cognitive Shadows. I have proof, but haven't started working on it yet, haha. It solves the above quote you finished with, Moogle.

 

Hmmm, technically Cognitive Shadows are what many people normally think of souls, I think. That is, souls in the Cosmere are spiritual constructs, but in many religions, souls are seen as a thinking being...or rather ghost-like in some way...much like shadows. That's exactly what Returned seem to be given our current knowledge of realmatics..

 

@Shyguy: The simplest definition for a Cognitive Shadow is that it's a...ghost or a mind that stayed behind in the cognitive realm after it's physical form was killed. The best example of this (out side of Shadows for Silence) is Kelsier, who decided that he can't leave well enough alone and had to stay on Scadrial forever (I guess he had some unfinished business, also it might have had strange/bad cognitive effects if he hadn't stayed, since so many people in Scadrial eventually see him as a god.)

 

Here's a nice WOB on this topic:

 

Q: At the end of the trilogy Sazed communicates with Kelsier so there is something going on with an afterlife.  Is it uniform across the cosmere?

B: What is happening there is not actually technically an afterlife, well it kind of is, it is what we call a cognitive shadow its when your spirit is not moving on yet.  So there is a Beyond but there is a-- basically it is what we would call in our world a ghost, and there are actually magic systems based around that.  Actually the story I have coming out in George R.R. Martin’s next anthology is a ghost story involving this same--yes it is cosmere based.  Yes, that would be consistent, they don’t all have the same mythology regarding it.  But it would be consistent, what happened with Kelsier could have happened on any of the planets.

(source)

[ShyGuy]

So in that case the Returned aren't Cognitive Shadows. They are very much physically present. 

 

Also, in theory it would be possible for any of the Shards to return sentient beings to their respective worlds if they saw fit. I assume that since the souls pass through the Cognitive Realm before moving into 'the afterlife', and since all of the Shardworlds are connected via Shadesmar, then it is certainly not out of the question to assume one Shard could return a being to a Shardworld other than the one over which they preside. 

 

eg; Endowment sends horses to Roshar to be mounts for Radiants

 

Not giving up on this

Edited July 9, 2014 by ShyGuy

[Curiosity]

 
@Shyguy: The simplest definition for a Cognitive Shadow is that it's a...ghost or a mind that stayed behind in the cognitive realm after it's physical form was killed. The best example of this (out side of Shadows for Silence) is Kelsier, who decided that he can't leave well enough alone and had to stay on Scadrial forever (I guess he had some unfinished business, also it might have had strange/bad cognitive effects if he hadn't stayed, since so many people in Scadrial eventually see him as a god.)
 
Here's a nice WOB on this topic:
 

(source)

 

I believe that Kelsier stayed around in the Cognitive Realm partly because he was willing to stay, but mostly because he was already regarded as such a prominent figure by the skaa. This would give him a heavy Cognitive presence, sort of like the Stormfather.

 

Sidetrack: Maybe the Heralds don't have spren because they weren't of Honor or Cultivation?

[ShyGuy]

 

 

I believe that Kelsier stayed around in the Cognitive Realm partly because he was willing to stay, but mostly because he was already regarded as such a prominent figure by the skaa. This would give him a heavy Cognitive presence, sort of like the Stormfather.

 

 

I could see that as being a very similar thing. Although I think the Stormfather and spren have a lot more influence over the Physical Realm because of how commonplace the things are that they represent (storms, fire, wind, etc.) Also, not only did the people of Roshar give those things presence, but the plants and animals did as well. Maybe if more life forms believed in The Survivor he could have had more of a physical impact on the world.

[Mistdork]

I believe that Kelsier stayed around in the Cognitive Realm partly because he was willing to stay, but mostly because he was already regarded as such a prominent figure by the skaa. This would give him a heavy Cognitive presence, sort of like the Stormfather.

That is essentially what could not leave well enough alone means...

Anyway, back to the issue of Returned as Cognitive Shadows. This is true to an extent, actually. Before a person Returns, they must first die...and then have a chat with Endowment about their future (if they're given the choice). In this period, they would technically be a Cognitive Shadow, and if they choose to Return, they would be "bound" with a Divine Breath and put back into their body. Technically at this point, they would no longer be considered a Cognitive Shadow because they have a physical form and a new Spiritual Construct (soul; mainly in the form of the Divine Breath)...thus existing in all three realms. A Cognitive Shadow only has a small physical presence at most, and possibly a small spiritual presence. This means that Returned can't be Shadows, however they were shadows for a short time...

Edited July 9, 2014 by Nymp

[Fallen Rope]

So returned horses would have to have a chat with Endowment about their future  .

Also what about hemalurgic horses, or could you spike an animal for strength or senses. But spiking an animal for intelligence or emotional fortitude would definitely not work.

Edit: Although you could give a horse a copper spike, use enough and you could be get a super intelligent horse.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Fallen Rope

[ShyGuy]

 

Horseshoe nails... could totally be Hemalurgic spikes. O.O

Edited July 9, 2014 by ShyGuy

[Fallen Rope]

The Ryshadium are descended for a horse that ate a bead of lerasium. At one point someone was killed with a piece of copper, that piece of copper was made into horse shoes. This gave the Ryshadium intelligence. The Ryshadium then got more spikes by stabbing the enemy in battles with their horse shoes. Some Ryshadium world hopped to Nalthis, their descendent then got breaths. One horse died and returned. That horse when back to Roshar to use the stormlight to stay alive. The returned horse was also there when Vin ascended and look spikes from the dead steel inquisitors. The god king horse is now the leader of the 17^th shard. I now need quotes to back this up.

[ShyGuy]

"...and so it was, that the Ryshadium became Shard-fueled beasts of pure, unadulterated awesome" -ShyGuy, King of the Ozone

 

There's a quote for ya Straight from the Returned Horses theorist himself.