The Elantrian Clue

[Galavantes]

WoB is that there is a huge clue regarding how Hoid accomplishes his world hopping in Elantris. So huge that he was under the impression that it couldn't be missed. "Intuitively obvious to the most casual observer" one might say.

 

Given that in WoR we saw:

Hoid appearing from what is most likely a shardpool, or something closely related to a shardpool, on the horn eater peaks. Then insulting Rock's beard.

 

It seems reasonable that the hint revolves around the scene of what appeared to be a shardpool in Elantris. However the two scenes in which it appears don't seem to yield much information. 

 

Has anyone spotted this "hint" yet? I'm willing to start a reread of Elantris to search for it, but perhaps I missed something here on the forums. 

[Chaos]

Well, the thing is, the Elantrians do vanish in that Shardpool, so that could be related to some worldhopping.

[Bloodfalcon]

I hope it is a worldhopping thing, but I do like reading people's theories involving 6 mistings standing in a box and using their powers to travel time/space. 

[Moogle]

Galladon remarks that a mural by Devotion's Shardpool looks like a gateway, as I recall.

[Chaos]

Galladon remarks that a mural by Devotion's Shardpool looks like a gateway, as I recall.

Wow, I totally did not remember that. Very cool.

I wonder where the Elantrians went, though. More importantly, why that pool allows for worldhopping while the Well did not.

[Galavantes]

Wow, I totally did not remember that. Very cool.

I wonder where the Elantrians went, though. More importantly, why that pool allows for worldhopping while the Well did not.

 

I believe that Brandon stated somewhere that the Elantrian shardpool wasn't exactly the same as the Well. In fact it seems like he hinted that the one we saw in Elantris may not have been a shardpool at all. 

Of course it's also possible that pools have different properties when a shard has been shattered. Or it could even be the case that no two shardpools are exactly alike. 

[Moogle]

Wow, I totally did not remember that. Very cool.

I wonder where the Elantrians went, though. More importantly, why that pool allows for worldhopping while the Well did not.

 

Here's the (somewhat exact, I typed it from a non-OCR copy of the book) quote:

 

"Over there," Karata said, pointing at the far end of the rectangular room, where the wall held only a single mural. It depicted a large mirrorlike blue oval. An Elantrian stood facing the oval, his arms outstreched and his eyes closed. He appeared to be flying toward the blue disk. The rest of the wall was black, though there was a large white sphere on the other side of the oval.

...

"It's painted sideways," Karata realized. "See, he's falling into a lake."

Raoden nodded. The Elantrian in the picture wasn't flying, he was falling. The oval was the surface of a lake, lines on its sides depicting a shore.

"It's like the water was considered a gate of some sort," Galladon said, head cocked to the side.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

The large white sphere is likely significant as well. Possibly Sel seen from space?

Ever since hearing that WoB I've assumed that this scene is the important one as well.

I think the Elantrians who passed into the pool likely didn't go anywhere, they probably did just "give up the ghost" so to speak.

Like many things related to magics in the Cosmere, intent probably plays a role in how the shard pools are utilized. If one steps in with the intent to Worldhop... Vs. someone who steps in with the intent to "shuffle off this mortal coil".

Could be that the Shardpools are passages to the Spiritual realms so they equate to the same thing.. Worldhopping and ending, but that doesn't jive with WoB's that talk about Hoid's ability to Worldhop as a function of his skill with Shadesmar and the Cognitive Realm.

[Moogle]

The large white sphere is likely significant as well. Possibly Sel seen from space?

 

Could also be Shadesmar's sun. As I recall, it's a white sun in a black sky. Though, looking through descriptions of Shadesmar, I can't find the word "white" used.

[Terisen]

I think the Elantrians who passed into the pool likely didn't go anywhere, they probably did just "give up the ghost" so to speak.

Like many things related to magics in the Cosmere, intent probably plays a role in how the shard pools are utilized. If one steps in with the intent to Worldhop... Vs. someone who steps in with the intent to "shuffle off this mortal coil".

 

This is how I always interpreted travelling through the Shardpool.  Those Elantrians who disappeared did so because they had enough suffering.  Raoden, however, has a change of heart.

 

Raoden shook his head, unable to respond.  They had expected him to dissolve - they didn't understand that the pool couldn't take him unless he wanted it to.

 

Definitely seems like intent has a big part to play with the pools.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Terisen

[WeiryWriter]

I also remember something where Brandon said that we have seen other people (apart from Jasnah and Shallan) who have enterred the Cognitive Realm. The only thing I can think of that really fits is the Elantrian "dissolving" in the Lake.  Because of that I've long been of the opinion that shardpools can act as points of realmatic transition (i.e. moving from one realm to another) and the Hoid/Horneater Peaks story really sealed the deal for me.  I do think "Shardpools are used for worldhopping" (which I've seen a lot) is an over simplification though.  Yes technically they would facilitate worldhopping but I think that is more of a consequence of their characteristics than a design feature? (For example I could use the hardcover of WoR to kill someone, does that make it a weapon?  Technically yes, but that doesn't mean that is what the book was "designed" to do).

[Chaos]

I also remember something where Brandon said that we have seen other people (apart from Jasnah and Shallan) who have enterred the Cognitive Realm. The only thing I can think of that really fits is the Elantrian "dissolving" in the Lake.  Because of that I've long been of the opinion that shardpools can act as points of realmatic transition (i.e. moving from one realm to another) and the Hoid/Horneater Peaks story really sealed the deal for me.  I do think "Shardpools are used for worldhopping" (which I've seen a lot) is an over simplification though.  Yes technically they would facilitate worldhopping but I think that is more of a consequence of their characteristics than a design feature? (For example I could use the hardcover of WoR to kill someone, does that make it a weapon?  Technically yes, but that doesn't mean that is what the book was "designed" to do).

I agree, I don't think that it was their "design" necessarily. The power obviously allows for a lot, and if you know to go to another world, then I guess that'll work.

That quote is absolutely about Shadesmar, Moogle. It has a black sky and "a strange, small white sun that hung on the horizon, too far away." That's from Shallan's first experience in Shadesmar.

I can't believe I never picked up the reference before.

 

I think the Elantrians who passed into the pool likely didn't go anywhere, they probably did just "give up the ghost" so to speak.

Like many things related to magics in the Cosmere, intent probably plays a role in how the shard pools are utilized. If one steps in with the intent to Worldhop... Vs. someone who steps in with the intent to "shuffle off this mortal coil".

Or, at least the Physical Realm. Maybe they just transition into the Cognitive or Spiritual, whereas someone who knew what they were doing to worldhop would use that access to Shadesmar to then worldhop.

This could explain something that has been bothering me: why the secrets of worldhopping have remained so... secret. If using a Pool is one of the primary ways (maybe there are others), that would explain that. Those things are obviously rare and highly guarded.

In any case, with the renewed Elantris, Raoden and Galladon would have figured out what that pool did, so that unequivocally explains how Galladon can get around. As for Demoux, Harmony could have let him have access to such a pool, perhaps.

Important edit: Elantrian "death" is actually even easier. All you'd do is go into Shadesmar and let its dangerous workings on Sel destroy you Problem solved, I guess.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Chaos

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Great catch Moogle & Chaos...

 

I can't believe we didn't see the white sphere portion before and attribute that to the Sun in Shadesmar/Cognitive Realms

 

This is very clearly the "big hint" that we were all supposed to have figured out, probably with the release of WoK back in 2010!

 

I agree, I don't think that it was their "design" necessarily. The power obviously allows for a lot, and if you know to go to another world, then I guess that'll work.

That quote is absolutely about Shadesmar, Moogle. It has a black sky and "a strange, small white sun that hung on the horizon, too far away." That's from Shallan's first experience in Shadesmar.

I can't believe I never picked up the reference before.
 

Or, at least the Physical Realm. Maybe they just transition into the Cognitive or Spiritual, whereas someone who knew what they were doing to worldhop would use that access to Shadesmar to then worldhop.

This could explain something that has been bothering me: why the secrets of worldhopping have remained so... secret. If using a Pool is one of the primary ways (maybe there are others), that would explain that. Those things are obviously rare and highly guarded.

In any case, with the renewed Elantris, Raoden and Galladon would have figured out what that pool did, so that unequivocally explains how Galladon can get around. As for Demoux, Harmony could have let him have access to such a pool, perhaps.

Important edit: Elantrian "death" is actually even easier. All you'd do is go into Shadesmar and let its dangerous workings on Sel destroy you Problem solved, I guess.

 

And I think this is where the intent comes into play.

 

If you intend a release from your 'mortal suffering' or are just tired of being an immortal/long lived Elantrian, when you sink to the well it probably does send you to the Spiritual Realm, which to draw parallel, is probably something akin to passing through the veil of death in the Department of Mysteries. One way ticket kind of thing... whereas a cognizant worldhopper would be able to shift to the Cognitive/Shadesmar and hop worlds. 

 

It definitely does explain the rarity of world hoping, 1 - 3 options per world, all very well hidden. Though we have seen and do know there are other ways of accessing world hopping magics. But like on Roshar, the art/power has been lost for millennium. On other worlds the power only recently possibly. 

 

Side note: I would be very excited if Warbreaker 2 ended with Vasher finding and entering Endowment's shardpool and traveling to Roshar 12 years prior to tWoK!

[Curiosity]

How would the Shadesmar-hopper survive though? Sel's Cognitive Realm… It's a dangerous place, right?* And why aren't the Seons present there, seeing as they're Splinters and all?

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

It's probably dangerous if you don't know what you're getting into, but if you're away, then it might be manageable...

 

Could be the Seons/Skaze are the dangers in the Cognitive realm there with no Shard to reign them in? Like the difference between Exhaustion spren on Roshar, and the giant black bird-like figures in Shadesmar... maybe Seons/Skaze are similar to that and in the cognitive realm, non-bonded of either type are wild and dangerous. 

[Chaos]

How would the Shadesmar-hopper survive though? Sel's Cognitive Realm… It's a dangerous place, right?* And why aren't the Seons present there, seeing as they're Splinters and all?

 

A good question, we don't know. Clearly it is possible though.

The Seons and Skaze are much less prevalent than the spren are on Roshar. I'm not sure they'd be the danger.

It's probably dangerous if you don't know what you're getting into, but if you're away, then it might be manageable...

 

Could be the Seons/Skaze are the dangers in the Cognitive realm there with no Shard to reign them in? Like the difference between Exhaustion spren on Roshar, and the giant black bird-like figures in Shadesmar... maybe Seons/Skaze are similar to that and in the cognitive realm, non-bonded of either type are wild and dangerous.

The reason why Shadesmar is dangerous is because there's very little release on the broken power of Devotion and Dominion. The Seons and Skaze are actually some release on the power, but it isn't enough, whereas on Roshar the spren are sufficient release. I don't think the Seons would be the nastiest thing there, rather, all that power thrown around would.

[happyman]

 

The reason why Shadesmar is dangerous is because there's very little release on the broken power of Devotion and Dominion. The Seons and Skaze are actually some release on the power, but it isn't enough, whereas on Roshar the spren are sufficient release. I don't think the Seons would be the nastiest thing there, rather, all that power thrown around would.

 

I'm pretty sure this is still just a theory, albeit a good one.  I know there's WoB I've seen on it, but I don't think it was all laid out in one place.

 

As to the danger, I think Raoden is the best example:  when he starts getting opened up to the Dor, it causes all kinds of problems.  That much uncontrolled power actually damages him, and he's in the physical realm.  I rather suspect that going to the cognitive realm on Sel is rather like swimming in the Dor.  I may not be meant as a weapon, but it'll do the job if you let it.

[Curiosity]

 

 

SUFFICIENTLYADVANCED

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

PHANTINE

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

WINDRUNNER17

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

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