You Got Your Science in my Fantasy!

[Wyrmhero he/him]

The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter have many similarities - They are both widely popular, were turned into films, and are absolute doorstoppers, putting many people off reading them because the films exist. I also enjoyed them both when I was younger, and they brought me into the fantasy genre in full (though HP is more of an fantastic Earth than a straight fantasy) There's also another important similarity, and one which I absolutely despise: Science is verboten.

 

Science in The Lord of the Rings is the province of Saruman, the White Wizard, the leader (such as they have one) of the Five Wizards in Middle-Earth. Famously, he betrays Gandalf the Grey and goes around allying with Sauron due to his lust for power and the One Ring. He develops gunpowder, a huge benefit to the world even if you ignore its military power. It can be used to study ballistics, or in the mining industry, for instance. Unfortunately, Sauron is evil, and therefore his science is a devilry which the main characters consider some kind of fell sorcery because they don't understand it. Tolkein designed Saruman and his war machine to mimic the pace of industrialisation, destroying nature in the name of progress.

 

In Harry Potter, we see impressive technologies, such as the developments of flying broomsticks, a 'living' and changing castle in Hogwarts, and so on. However, all of this is done by magic. Not one whiff of science there, apparently because it doesn't work there due to ambient magical energies or whatever. They even had to steal the Hogwart's Express from the pathetic and worthless muggles (remember kids, stealing is fine if you do it from normals!). The magically inclined are so backwards that it's laughable. They don't understand - and can't even pronounce - electricity, or figure out muggle money: they find it easier to count in a combination of base 29 and 17 than in base 10, for goodness' sake. They even have to be told that 'A gun is kind of like a metal wand' - after 400 years of them existing! Even Arthur Weasley, their Misuse of Muggle Artefacts guy, has no idea what electricity is, which even in the mid-1990s you'd think would be pretty crucial to most Muggle Artefacts. This is all in despite of the fact that a good number of the characters have a non-magical lineage.

 

About half a year ago on his blog, the head of Research and Development at the Magic: The Gathering branch of Wizards of the Coast said that they'd never do a sci-fi themed set because it wouldn't appeal to people because it wasn't fantasy. He even mentioned that they'd considered doing a Western/gunslingers-style set, but of course we'd have spellslingers instead of gunslingers. To this date, the only gunpowder-based weapons in MtG have been with fantasy-okay cannons (mostly on ships) and the Portal set, which had a very small print-run and is non-canon due to the fact that it is based on the Chinese Three Kingdoms period.

 

Even the Dresden Files has this. Dresden works with technology daily, even going so far as to put his name in the telephone directory (now also an anachronism, thanks to the internet). In this alone, it's by far better than how Harry Potter deals with it. However, he also has to use old technology, because anything new is too vulnerable to magic. Now I can kind of justify this, due to new tech being more precise and therefore easier to wreck with small changes, but even so it seems a little excessive.

 

These are just examples of series in which magic and science are felt to be opposing forces, or perhaps downright wrong to the main characters. The only time the two are allowed combine are in the areas of magic Steampunk (because electricity is apparently too good for some people) and Magitek (in which magic is a power source rather than electricity).

 

The only real fantasy series I can think of which avoids this completely is The Discworld novels, particularly in later novels, with films, semaphore, High Energy Magic, steam power and so on. That may be however because they're much less based on combat, and are more about characters than epic fights for the sake of the world. The Amber Chronicles also slightly gets around this as well; Gunpowder is somehow inert on the titular land, so the character gets a different explosive compound instead. A rather clever solution, in my opinion. However, after this, it progresses rather similarly onwards and employs magitech.

 

We can kind of make sense of why this is - People get cut by swords and hit by arrows, but a gunshot is a definite kill, after all. Older weaponry requires skill to use proficiently, whereas guns have a simple point 'n' click interface. Now obviously this is an exaggeration, but it seems to be the reason in fantasy for enforcing this technological stasis (something I will forever love Mistborn for justifying and then subverting).

 

Overall, it's the idea of technological stability over large periods of time that I think is most abhorrent to me here. I can get that gunpowder takes a lot of the romance out of it, but it wasn't the be-all and end-all of scientific achievement. It didn't help us discover how to use electricity, for instance. It's rather annoying when they don't even justify it either. There's Willing Suspension of Disbelief, I know, but after several thousand years...

 

Even worse is when even magic isn't studied. 'Any sufficiently studied magic is indistinguishable from technology', the corollary to Clarke's Third Law states, which might give the reason for magic being mysterious and unknown. The idea that no-one in that period of time was born who went 'Hey, you know that thing we rely on? Anyone know how it works at all? Or even if there's an alternative that doesn't put our lives in the hands of people born with all that power who we can't control?'. Scientists of any flavour are severely lacking in fantasy.

 

So... After that long rant discussion, what are your thoughts about the use (or absence) of science in fantasy? What have you seen which does it really well or really poorly? Do you think that fantasy has to mean the medieval era? In your opinion, are urban fantasies are true examples of the fantasy genre? Or for that matter, what about the development and study of magic itself? Finally, do you think that the idea that science does not belong is at all damaging for the advancement of the fantasy genre?

Edited June 22, 2014 by Wyrmhero

[Kasimir he/him]

Well, at least off the top of my head, here are some things I've considered:
 
1. Path dependency
 
It's something interesting to think about when you consider issues of technological determinism in the history of technology. I guess the easy case study to illustrate the matter is something like this: consider what happens if DC had won the Current Wars. Once you have DC infrastructure set up, things and the technological options you then get become 'locked in', in a sense. Infrastructure isn't always easy to change (though it can be done) and which options look appealing often depend both on socio-political interests as well as what the existing infrastructure allows for. (Actually, how this dynamic really works is a contentious issue, and I'm too tired to sketch it out properly )
 
The thing about how technology often seems static in fantasy worlds with magic--I sometimes wonder if it is in fact, partly to be expected. That simply put, infrastructure, or at least the tools people have to solve real life problems end up being magical ones. Which gives less incentive (despite curiosity) to develop sciences as compared to studying magical arts, for instance. (Realistically, I think, we could even have an interesting dynamic where meddling with the early forerunners of the natural sciences--think about how this was dominated by nobles/gentleman hobbyists--is something 'impractical' only aristocracy can handle, while magic is more practical and working-class. Like engineering.)
 
2. I'm really wondering about how stable our categories of 'magic' and 'technology' and 'science' are. Which is to say, that especially in your post in Jerric's thread, I get the idea that it's actually pretty hard to come up with a coherent, unique/interesting (and probably realistic) picture of how magic and science could end up working in a society, and in part, this is because of the way people can or can't draw the lines between them, to have a robust picture of magic as an enterprise/project or science. (*I actually think this would pose less problem in fantasy, but this would be heavily dependent on how we think of magic and science. Which is always going to be a tricky thing.)

 

And I haven't yet answered your questions but I want to not go further for now >>.

[Ashiok]

I like how they do it in the Powder Mage series

"Privileged" have ridiculous power over the 4 elements, but can't affect gunpowder or bullets shot w/ gunpowder

Mediocre guns and gunpowder exist

Powder Mages can do cool things with Gunpowder

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

I was actually going to use Powdermage Trilogy as an example of some of the newer fantasies that are starting to incorporate science with magic. (Of course, it should be noted Brian McClellan was a student of Brandon Sanderson).

I actually can't think of too many examples of fantasies that don't have too much science going on, as I know I would not really enjoy them as much as the ones that I have read that do implement some sort of science/magic interaction. One thing that does bug with, is with stories that have people and factions capable of straight elemental magic manipulation....usually for hundreds/thousands of years. Think of the amazing technological leaps humans have made without any sort of magic! How can those not be discovered and used with thousands of years of unlimited possible applications.

Fire: Um.... Perfect Steam-Engine, anybody? Why use that bulky coal-furnace that spits out noxious fumes when you can just use a Fire Mage to constantly power/control the temperature? What about perfect-forging techniques/welding? Wouldn't metal structures be way more common/practically used?

Wind: Windmill powered electricity, much? What about masterfully built boats and crafts with wind manipulation in mind? Most average power wind mages should be able to control the small area around a boat to create the right drifts/drafts.

Speaking of,

Electricity: If you can control electricity, how has nobody ever thought to see what happens when you send some down a wire? So many unlimited applications. Scientific experimentation labs should be the most common things in any world where magic exists.

Earth manipulation for mining purposes, looking for metals, or clearing, excavating areas. Controlling Water, you could set up an isolated pool or lake or something, use your Water manipulation to create some sort of current, install a Water Mill...and boom. Once again, easy, simple energy sources.

Of course, that's just Classic Elemental Magic manipulation, and a lot of the newer fantasies have been branching out into newer interesting ways. Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicles is a fantastic example. Has the old idea of True Naming, direct manipulation, but there's also Sympathy and Sygaldry, which are both very fascinating and cool in their own right. Of course, Brandon Sanderson is a great example, with Fabrials and all of his different magical and technological systems he uses.

[Kasimir he/him]

Well, just to answer another of the raised questions: the medieval era is a very usual period for fantasy, but my understanding is, the moment you dissect it a bit, it's really more complicated than it appears on first blush. First, what do you define as the medieval era? In which country? Depending on the time-slice you pick and the country, you're going to get a very different balance of science and technology. Decent fantasy could even pick the classical era, where you have Greek proto-science or Roman engineering coming into play.

 

Fantasy set in the Renaissance tends to be promising, in that it can take advantage of the emergence of science as something not-quite what we recognise, but at the same time, because it's still in the early days of science, can afford to blend science and magic. Some historians of chemistry, according to my prof, study alchemy in order to gain context of how chemistry emerged. Consider things such as Newton having an active interest in the occult--without feeling the sense of tension we seem to do nowadays. Science wasn't a formal institution back then: it was a (systematic) way of studying the world, and I think there's some case for how it's not always--in that historical period, anyway--something easily separable from magic. (Really, I vastly oversimplify, so apologies to any historians of science I may have inadvertently annoyed with my crude sketch.)

 

I do enjoy my urban fantasy books, so that, I'm going to have to say, yes, I would consider them admissible as fantasy  I find it interesting (in the example you mentioned) that Dresden does often employ science to his advantage (read: freezing a lake by casting a fire spell) but at the same time, there's this sense of tension between science and magic as well. (In addition to that: I might have to ask if we should draw a further separate category for engineering/technology because at times, these things do come apart.)

 

With regard to the development and study of magic itself, an initial thought is: this, to me, is where the question of our categories of magic and science matters. Think about things like (somewhat modern) developments of systems based on the Kabbalah, which are pretty systematic but mystical at the same time, versus things like Ghostlab (Ghostbusters? ) in a world where those things actually come out true. So, mystical stuff versus pseudoscience (?--I'm willing to relax this label; I hope it offends no one.) Do we recognise either as a blend of science and magic? The former would not go amiss in medieval times. The latter seems a bit less magic than (sometimes) magic plus jargon/"rigour". For that, I think Gamma's suggestions of cases in which these things actually have been done well are pretty interesting. Kingkiller, I think, does well where it links physical laws (and to some extent, terminology/material constraints) to magic. There are clearly some magical forces going on with sygaldry, but by ending those elements and the impression of rigour, it seems a good case of a nice fusion.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

I actually can't think of too many examples of fantasies that don't have too much science going on, as I know I would not really enjoy them as much as the ones that I have read that do implement some sort of science/magic interaction. One thing that does bug with, is with stories that have people and factions capable of straight elemental magic manipulation....usually for hundreds/thousands of years. Think of the amazing technological leaps humans have made without any sort of magic! How can those not be discovered and used with thousands of years of unlimited possible applications.

...

Of course, that's just Classic Elemental Magic manipulation, and a lot of the newer fantasies have been branching out into newer interesting ways. Patrick Rothfuss' Kingkiller Chronicles is a fantastic example. Has the old idea of True Naming, direct manipulation, but there's also Sympathy and Sygaldry, which are both very fascinating and cool in their own right. Of course, Brandon Sanderson is a great example, with Fabrials and all of his different magical and technological systems he uses.

 

The Avatar: Legend of Korra cartoon is a good place to see how supernatural capabilities can be used in daily life. They use the spontaneous generation of lightning for power stations, as you suggested. They have also used Firebending to substitute for gunpowder in tanks in the previous series as well. The only other place you see how bending of various forms can be used in daily life though there is for sport . Perhaps its not a bad example though of how magic would be used in a more modern world though, when technology catches up and starts to do things better or in a more useful manner. Eventually, magic would become obsolete if it wasn't developed and used as technology advanced. If magic was not an inexhaustible supply, or couldn't be automated, I think it would definitely start to die off.

 

The Kingkiller Chronicles has an interesting combination of science and magic, not just with the Sympathy/Sygaldry stuff you mentioned, which I rather enjoyed, but also with the University itself - People study both the normal subjects we are used to and magic (and indeed can pick and choose to study varying levels of magic), and then can also study using magic and science with engineering. This happens all in the same place, which is a refreshing break; usually in fantasy novels there are special institutions that solely learn magic, or apprenticeship schemes. We even see the dangers of a relatively normal chemistry lab and the safety precautions one should take in the Kingkiller Chronicles, which is a lovely touch (and as in the normal world, chem labs are absolutely terrifying. A chemist friend I have has a whole A4 folder of warnings and procedures to follow. My labs usually just say 'don't look into the laser' or whatever).

 

Well, just to answer another of the raised questions: the medieval era is a very usual period for fantasy, but my understanding is, the moment you dissect it a bit, it's really more complicated than it appears on first blush. First, what do you define as the medieval era? In which country? Depending on the time-slice you pick and the country, you're going to get a very different balance of science and technology. Decent fantasy could even pick the classical era, where you have Greek proto-science or Roman engineering coming into play.

...

With regard to the development and study of magic itself, an initial thought is: this, to me, is where the question of our categories of magic and science matters. Think about things like (somewhat modern) developments of systems based on the Kabbalah, which are pretty systematic but mystical at the same time, versus things like Ghostlab (Ghostbusters? ) in a world where those things actually come out true. So, mystical stuff versus pseudoscience (?--I'm willing to relax this label; I hope it offends no one.) Do we recognise either as a blend of science and magic? The former would not go amiss in medieval times. The latter seems a bit less magic than (sometimes) magic plus jargon/"rigour". For that, I think Gamma's suggestions of cases in which these things actually have been done well are pretty interesting. Kingkiller, I think, does well where it links physical laws (and to some extent, terminology/material constraints) to magic. There are clearly some magical forces going on with sygaldry, but by ending those elements and the impression of rigour, it seems a good case of a nice fusion.

 

I suppose I am being rather vague with 'medieval'. I mean just the sort of pre-gunpowder era. I don't know why you're asking about countries though - All fantasy happens in the UK (or New Zealand). But now that you mention it, I don't think I've ever seen a fantastical classical-era series. I suppose that's not too surprising though - The Greeks already did it all for us . I'm now very interested in having a look to see if there's anything on that sort of area which focuses on magic as well as or instead of mythology.

 

With regards to the boundaries of science, magic and the blurring of the lines between them, you're quite right there. Clarke's Third Law is rather infamous for stating how the two can be interchangeable at times. It's a interesting point you've raised, asking when we stop defining something as science, and start defining it as magic. I think that we would probably define magic as 'anything we can't scientifically prove in this world', except that also catches out almost all religions in the world .

 

I would I agree that the fusion of magic and science needs to be rigorously theorised, tested and described. Well, you can't call something that hasn't been theorised real science, after all. That's kind of the point. The question then becomes, 'at what point do we stop considering it as magic, and just consider it as science?'. Sci-fi does a lot of this, since they seem to really like the idea of psychics through further evolution. They don't call it magic, but treat it as a logical conclusion through science. But even then, it remains a supernatural phenomenon. So I think it's more of a question of considering the how the supernatural (including magic, divinity, mythical creatures etc) and the natural (the laws of nature, scientific progress, normal flora and fauna etc) affect one another in fantastical stories.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Wyrmhero

[Fedelpen]

Well, a specific problem with electricity/electric magic off the top of my head is that any fine tuned electronics (read: all of them) could be thrown off or destroyed by a mage. Surge protectors would help, but the problem is still there.

 

I think that Kasimir has the right idea. Someone had to invent the generator, motor, engine, capacitor, etc. Those kinds of things are the staple of essentially ALL our technology. If the need for those isn't there, or if we just don't have a Renaissance period where thought is valued and nurtured, we probably won't develop those staple technologies. 

 

 

But yeah, I get your complaints. Harry Potter drives me crazy with its lack of any common sense. Muggle born wizards like Harry and Hermione exist, and yet wizards are completely ignorant about all muggle technology. And no one ever explained why mispronouncing wingardium leviosa would get you a buffalo on the chest, but we have people with different accents (French, Russians, etc). Why are spells based on latin? Why do some need words, why do some need motions? Why do you need wands, and why not use a staff? Not a single wizard knows the answer; not a single wizard has even asked the question.

 

Although, I hated the Eragon series (Inheritance Cycle) for introducing science. The earth is round and the sky is hollow; I wonder if we can get to the moon? "Be not" and turn matter into energy; nuclear radiation and mutations. It just irked me. 

 

The biggest problem with science/magic overlaps is that the magic is rarely well defined. See Sanderson's rules: you can't solve problems arbitrarily by use of magic that you don't understand. You have to answer ALL the questions about magic before you can apply laws of physics to your story. Molecular level, quantum physics, DNA, conservation of energy[!!], conservation of mass, etc, etc. You don't get to 'just power' technology with magic, you have to explain how magic is powering it, or burn a lot a handwavium. With Allomancy and Feruchemy, we understand most. Steel pushes metal (except aluminum) directly away from your center of mass. But what if you wanted to artificially burn steel to harness that raw energy and use it in a different way? Suddenly we need to know why some people can burn metals and others can't, what that difference is, what the process is, what happens to metals when they are burnt, what form that energy takes, the relationship among the different metals. You need to have a completely bulletproof understanding of how your magic system works before you can have cutting edge science, and probably also a strong history of your world where you figured out which pieces of technology would be developed when based on what magic was available to help develop it or hinder interest in it. It would just be a lot of work. 

 

That's my idea of the writer's answer. The logical one is that necessity is the mother of invention. Magic discourages scientific development, although I definitely agree that magic should take technology's place as a field of study. Harry Potter has a stupid magic system.

[Asperity he/him]

Clarke's Third Law is my favorite fictional concept. I hope it becomes incorporated in fictional media in the future. I'm very excited to play Tides of Numenera because of this.

[Delightful]

Has anyone read the Laws of Magic series? It's set in alternate England, less than a decade before WW1, and the main character is a student of magic. At that time  in the world, there have been many discoveries about magic and it is still being studied. If I remember correctly, use of magic was largely based on proficiency in ancient languages, and the antagonist was looking for a uniting language behind everything. I don't remember exactly how - it's been years since I read it - but there was definitely some crossover of magic and tech - they had some kind of magic-driven helicopter,  I think, in a world where both tech and magic were being discovered simultaneously. Or something. But the study of magic in itself, and new applications of what was discovered was definitely a large part of the plot. (The main character, before the book begins, accidentally half-kills himself and spends a large amount of time experimenting with new forms of magic to keep his soul inside his body. It's awesome.)

[Arondell]

   As I recall the Shadowrun series mixed together science and magic with a vengeance.  It had all the classic D&D type creatures mixed together in a world that was just as likely to have orcs with AK-47s as it was to have elves with magic wands.  Advanced machines melding science and magic are a common item in that world.  Research labs developing new magic and science techniques were rather common as well.

 

   Most superhero worlds tend to have magic as part of the background.  Granted most superhero characters who are magic based tend to be exclusively that.  Though I'm pretty sure you could find exceptions that mix the two ideas.

 

Larry Correia's Monster Hunter International series probably counts as "urban fantasy".  It has ghetto gnomes and trailer park elves.   Heck it even has orcs.  It certainly mixes in some science with its mayhem.  One scene has a couple of the more tech oriented hunters mixing together a bunch of cleaning supplies in a laundry cart and throwing in a phosphorus grenade just before they roll it into a room they want to blow up really bad.

 

Frankly I think you just haven't come across the right books.

[Kasimir he/him]

Incidentally, I've wondered if academic dynamics could be a part of it, to put it bluntly. Within the constraints of a modern society, there's always this big scramble for research funding (especially in science and engineering) but also in the humanities (*cough* drying tap *cough*). If it's part of a funding scramble, we could really be seeing fierce competition between magic and science because they open up different research projects/have different approaches. (And we all know how possessive people can get about the 'right' way to do things...)

 

In addition, interdisciplinary work tends to get looked down on a lot. So there might be not much incentive to reach across discipline boundaries. On the other side of the coin, it's the big thing these days. So it's not really a point in favour of or against less magic-science separation.

[traceria she/her]

This discussion is a little too technical for me to really dig into while at work, but I'd like to throw out a thought about Dresden.  He doesn't always adversely affect technology, but he often goes out of his way to screw it up.  Similarly, he quite regularly uses guns, and there are all sorts of supernatural creatures (some of which use magic themselves and others of which you'd think would be just as likely to screw up technology because of their supernaturalness) that use tech without a hitch, like the White Court vampires, for instance.  Thomas always seems to have a recent model car, for example, and his presence isn't screwing up the car's computer at all.  As to talk of gunpowder, it works just fine around everyone in Dresden.

 

And there's one other series that comes to mind that may be on topic: There's a young adult series called the Frontier Magic Series by Patricia C. Wrede.  In that series most people have some degree of magical ability, but there are some who don't have any.  There is also a group of people who shun the use of magic (either for ideological reasons or because they themselves aren't able to use it).  That particular group ends up developing strategies and ways of doing things that magically capable people can do with magic, only their way doesn't need magic.  In this series, it's less that magically capable people shun technology and more that the people who want to develop and use technology (it's kind of set in pioneer times, so I use that term loosely) don't want magic to have anything to do with it.  But magic user and non-magic people alike ALL carry and use firearms.

[Tulir he/him]

A good example of tech still developing is the Lightbringer series by Brent Weeks.  And to some extent, Malazan book of the Fallen introduces technology, in the form of grenades and a mention of a car-like thing.  The no technology can be rationalized by the fact that magic can take the jobs so there isn't any need to invent something like gunpowder and such, but as you said, Wyrm, it still is unbelievable most of the time.

[kinxer he/him]

While my approach to your question about conflicting science and magic, I agree that the Harry Potter approach is badly handled, but the previous statements about improving magic with science (engineering, etc.) and vice-versa seem like the best justifications to me. In addition to that is the idea of the path of least resistance. If one can either go through trial-and-error to create some piece of technology or harness already-available magical techniques, it'll be easier to do the latter and thereby blend magic and science. Over time there would be progression in terms of understanding and scientific development, but it would take a great deal longer and (assuming progression only up to present technology) probably still blend with magic, at least in terms of power (electrical, mechanical) generation.

Anyway, I'll add to the list of books Imager by L. E. Modessit. It has a magic system that is an odd but interesting blend of imagination and hard physical laws, and there are definitely guns and cannons and such. I've only read the first book, which was set in a single city, but there were mentions of a nation that is highly industrial and disdains magic.

[Shaggai]

Decent fantasy could even pick the classical era, where you have Greek proto-science or Roman engineering coming into play.

This is basically the Codex Alera, by Jim Butcher, which is set in a Rome-based society. For the most part, they've lost Roman engineering, because magic does it so much better, but some of it gets rediscovered during the course of the series.

[kari-no-sugata]

Interesting discussion.

 

I suspect a big reason is that generally fantasy authors do not tend to have studied science that deeply and its a lot easier to do convincing world-building with a good science element when you have a strong background and interest in science (and worldbuilding). Brandon studied biochemistry at university and to me it shows in this writing that he does enjoy science. Short answer, we need more Brandon Sandersons!?

 

Things seem to be improving in general though. Maybe it helps that geeks aren't considered to be uncool by definition anymore...?