Jasnah, Shallan, and Soulcasting

[fiveAM]

I noticed that chapters in which Szeth, Shallan, and Jasnah are introduced are each marked with the herald of their order*.

Szeth: 1, Jezrien

Shallan: 6, Shalash

Jasnah: 5

However, Kaladin, who I believe is confirmed as a Windrunner--Jezrien's order--has a different herald: Taln, I think. Possibly Kaladin, as the 'backstory character' for this book, is indicated with a herald somehow related to what happens to him in the chapter, rather than the herald of his order... maybe. I'm pretty sure Jezrien heads the chapter that Kaladin speaks the second ideal (I don't have the book with me to check).

Also, Dalinar is introduced in a chapter headed by Hoid (who also appears in that chapter) and Jezrien.

I'm not sure what this might mean.

*Actually, Shallan's presumed order, one of Jasnah's two possible orders given that presumption, and the order that matches Szeth's powerset even though he gets his powers some other way.

Sometimes I think Brandon is just messing with our heads with the chapter icons. A red herring of sorts.

[Telcontar]

My impression had also been that Jasnah is in order nr.5

But you already figured out the best reasons why. I would say that the numbering of the ability-sheet is greater consensus now. (We start with Jezrien on top right, then count clockwise) And that adjacent orders share one surge they are able to manipulate.

Which leaves nr.5 or nr.7 for Jasnah (because Shallan is nr.6 which also is greater consensus )

I believe in the Herald Heads, they are not just confusion. They are just too much like the chapter icons in the WoT which is one of Brandon's biggest influences as a writer. In WoT the icons often gave hints to who would be in the chapters, especially when there were disguised Forsaken somewhere messing around.

I think it's pretty clear that a chapter entitled "Heretic" where Jasnah appears for the first time, and where she is the important character (Soulcasting that boulder and testing Shallan) has two times Heraldhead nr.5 in the archway.

As to her difficulties with Soulcasting food. My impression of the Soulcasting abilities always was that they have nothing to do with people and abilities but with the gemstone. You need emeralds to Soulcast food, you use smokestone to turn people to smoke etc. Her problems do not come from being in an order. I'm far more enclined to that theory that they come from her lack of understanding in biology.

If Soulcasting abilites were tied to the order of the Caster, it would be pretty sad, because there is only two orders who had inherent Soulcasting abilites. So there would be only two essences which could be produces easily. No, the Soulcasting abilites from the Ars Arcanum only refer to the gemstones.

[dj26792]

I think that you're refering to the different gems being used for different types of soulcasting, but what Jasnah is talking about is an inability to perform complex soulcasting that creates organics, she is capable of soulcasting organics, she does it at least once in the books, but she repeatedly comments that she isnt very good at soulcasting organics, hence the objections to order 5

[treblkickd]

I think that you're refering to the different gems being used for different types of soulcasting, but what Jasnah is talking about is an inability to perform complex soulcasting that creates organics, she is capable of soulcasting organics, she does it at least once in the books, but she repeatedly comments that she isnt very good at soulcasting organics, hence the objections to order 5

The point still stands that it doesn't make sense for a given soulcaster (as in a person who can soulcast innately) to have strengths/weaknesses that are determined by their Knight Radiant Order. We know that only two Orders could soulcast, and soulcasting strengths/talents/whatever you want to call them being tied to Order precludes the existence of innate soulcasters who are skilled at soulcasting 8 or the 10 categories of stuff-which-can-be-soulcast (SWCBS - bam - it's an official acronym now). That seems ridiculous.

Looking more broadly at the issue of heralds and orders being tied to specific gemstones, it's not clear what's going on. Kaladin, for example, doesn't seem to have any particular affinity or special use for sapphires, which are the gemstone tied to his apparent Order, nor does he do anything that makes direct use of translucent gas or air, which are the soulcasting properties sharing a column with Jez/Windrunners (other than the word "Wind" appearing in the order name, which is about the flimsiest connection ever). Kaladin has powers/abilities tied to pressure and gravitation, neither of which seem to have anything to do with sapphires or translucent gas/air.

[Telcontar]

ok, please forgive my inability to express myself, I'm working on it

I'll try again. I think that the interpretation of the Ars Arcanum should be different.

Jasnah is not good at Soulcasting organics. But I don't think that the ability to Soulcast stuff into organics depends on your order. That's why her lack of ability in that domain cannot be an argument against or in favor of her belonging to any order.

My interpretation of the Ars Arcanum is indeed that the Soulcasting properties refer to gems used in the process. I don't know whether it is possible that they can be used to create different things, but Soulcasting works best when you have the gems with the proper abilites. That's why emerald spheres are the most valuable, because they are used to create food.

We have seen that Jasnah is very good at Soulcasting stuff into one of the Essences, mostly smoke, crystal and fire (smokestone, diamond and ruby). Maybe she is just not good at combining Essences (because she never had the proper training?).

Why should she be good at creating organics (wood, plants, moss) when belonging to order nr.5?

1. as those belong to the Essences, they should be pretty easy to Cast if you have an emerald.

2. Jasnah says herself that she isn't good at creating organics. Strawberry jam or bread is not simply an Essence but a mixture of it. So Jasnah simply lacks skill. And she didn't even have an emerald to Cast the basics of organics.

3. there is next to noone on Roshar (except for Jasnah and Shallan) who does have inherent Soulcasting abilites. Noone belongs to an order yet. Still Soulcasting works pretty well to create barracks, food, wood etc. So the Soulcasting properties are not about KR-orders but about gemstones used in the process.

4. If you say that Jasnah should be good at Casting organics provided she is indeed in order nr.5, then you say that a member of another order should be good at Casting their respective Essences. (so Kaladin is very good at Casting gas/air? I have serious problems to believe in that interpretation of the Ars Arcanum)

Summary:

You are good at creating Essences when you posses the fitting infused gemstones.

Casting stuff out of different Essences requires skill and knowledge.

Belonging to an order defines in no way in which Castings you are good or bad.

So Jasnah being bad at Casting strawberry jam cannot be an argument against her being in order nr.5

Well, I hope you will be able to understand what I'm trying to say.

[Telcontar]

thanks treblkickd, I was already writing when you posted, that's why we're saying the same thing.