Jasnah, Shallan, and Soulcasting

[ulyssessword he/him]

I've always had trouble with Shallan and Jasnah both having the ability to soulcast, despite not being associated with Orders that are next to each other. Here's what I've been working off of:

1. Magical abilities on Roshar are shared between adjacent orders, with two powers per order. As an example, order 2 gets powers B and C, Order 3 gets powers C and D, order 4 gets powers D and E, and so on for all 10 orders and 10 powers. I believe that this was directly stated by Brandon, but didn't find the quote.

2. Jasnah belongs to order #2 (Smokestone, Exhalation, Opaque Gas/Smoke/Fog, Learned/Giving). There is good support for this; she uses the smokestone for all of the most powerful soulcasting, from removing the boulder (p90 hardcover) to striking down the thieves in the alley (p 534 hardcover). Before each of these times, she took a deep breath, presumably to exhale when actually releasing the power. She is extremely Learned, being one of the foremost scholars in her field, but not very Giving.

EDIT: apparently Learned/Giving is the wrong attributes.

3. Shallan belongs to order #6 (Garnet, Blood, Creative/Honest). Her first soulcasting is turning the goblet into blood, and she later uses the single garnet broam to visit Shadesmar. She is extremely accomplished artistically, showing that she is creative, and it is remarked several times that she is genuine and honest. Telling a truth about herself is also how she accessed Shadesmar, giving a stronger connection to honesty.

I have a few ideas of how this could be reconciled, but none seem very good to me.

1. They are in those orders, but they still share a power. This could work if the orders did not go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, instead being more scattered, with 2 and 6 next to each other. This seems unordered, and I think that the magic is more structured than this.

2. One (or both) of them is in a different order that I assumed. This would fix the contradiction, but none of the others fit the characters as well.

3. They have different powers, that only seem the same. Contradicted on p 978 of the hardcover, Jasnah says that (only) two orders had inherent soulcasting ability.

Anyone have ideas for this, or is it just too early to get any farther?

Edited December 8, 2011 by ulyssessword

[CrazyRioter she/her]

actually there's a typo in the AA, "Learned/Giving" is actually associated with the 5th order.

[ulyssessword he/him]

actually there's a typo in the AA, "Learned/Giving" is actually associated with the 5th order.

Does that mean that Just/Confident is for the 2nd order? It seems like this would work about as well that is the case, the connection was much stronger to smokestone, smoke, and exhalation than to Learned/Giving.

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

I would place Shallan under Chach, Ruby, The Soul, Brave/Obedient. Partly because of the obvious connection between The Soul and Soulcasting, also because of its proximity to Smokestone as you mentioned, and also to Diamond, which is associated with the eyes, which fits her Memories ability to a tee. You may say that Creative/Honest fits her better, but I'd wager that Brave/Obedient are traits that we'll see become more prominent in her in her flashback book (which is next!). I'd also say that her connection to the Garnet is circumstantial at best, as the Garnet was a necessary item for Jasnah to save her from the poison. And if her first use of Soulcasting can be used as evidence toward her inclination essence-wise, I'd say the fact that she Soulcasts glass bears as much weight as using a Garnet.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I really think Creative/Honest suits Shallan better. Her artwork ties in very well with Creative, and her method of strengthening her Nahel bond is by telling personal truths to the symbolhead spren. I think that the 1st and 2nd Divine Attributes are the aspects most important to the Nahel bond.

And I believe that Jasnah and Shallan still have to be in bordering Orders, Shash and Palah work very well for that.

[callumke he/him]

I would place Shallan under Chach, Ruby, The Soul, Brave/Obedient. Partly because of the obvious connection between The Soul and Soulcasting, also because of its proximity to Smokestone as you mentioned, and also to Diamond, which is associated with the eyes, which fits her Memories ability to a tee. You may say that Creative/Honest fits her better, but I'd wager that Brave/Obedient are traits that we'll see become more prominent in her in her flashback book (which is next!). I'd also say that her connection to the Garnet is circumstantial at best, as the Garnet was a necessary item for Jasnah to save her from the poison. And if her first use of Soulcasting can be used as evidence toward her inclination essence-wise, I'd say the fact that she Soulcasts glass bears as much weight as using a Garnet.

I think she fits creative/honest because she has to be honest in order to soulcast! That is established. Not only does she use a Garnet to do her first soulcasting, but she transforms the goblet into Blood, which is the soulcasting property associated with the Shash. I reckon that considering she doesn't know what she is doing, soulcasting would default to the soulcasting property associated with that Order of Radiants. Combine that with her creativity, and it seems to fit Shash exactly.

[ulyssessword he/him]

I could easily see Shallan being Brave/Obedient, but I don't see much to support the rest of the things associated with that order.

It would have taken a huge amount of bravery to set out looking for Jasnah, only to steal from her (also, a very dishonest thing to do), as well as a strong sense of obedience to her family. I also seem to recall her remarking that this was one of the first times she took initiative herself, instead of just obeying her family. Also, with her spren, she obeyed it when she told it a truth, so that could be obedient as well.

There's not much to link her to Ruby, the only one that I could find was that the first time we see her, she gives Yalb a Ruby mark to wait for her (ch. 3, p 70 hardcover).

For Soul, I also seem to remember that it felt like she captured a bit of her subjects' soul in her drawings, but couldn't find the quote. Also, it could be that drawing an exact copy of something is not regarded as creative, as the image already exists (it is more like photography than painting/drawing).

I didn't find anything for Fire.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I'm also not entirely sure how much her photo-like artwork associates Creativity, but it does attract creationspren, which I think should count for something.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I would place Shallan under Chach, Ruby, The Soul, Brave/Obedient. Partly because of the obvious connection between The Soul and Soulcasting, also because of its proximity to Smokestone as you mentioned, and also to Diamond, which is associated with the eyes, which fits her Memories ability to a tee. You may say that Creative/Honest fits her better, but I'd wager that Brave/Obedient are traits that we'll see become more prominent in her in her flashback book (which is next!). I'd also say that her connection to the Garnet is circumstantial at best, as the Garnet was a necessary item for Jasnah to save her from the poison. And if her first use of Soulcasting can be used as evidence toward her inclination essence-wise, I'd say the fact that she Soulcasts glass bears as much weight as using a Garnet.

I find it difficult to believe that Shallan is "Obedient", considering that she killed her father. True, she was obedient before that, but it wasn't until after that that she started noticing the Symbolheads.

[Ari he/him]

I find it difficult to believe that Shallan is "Obedient", considering that she killed her father. True, she was obedient before that, but it wasn't until after that that she started noticing the Symbolheads.

Not to mention that she's not exactly obedient to Jasnah, or the rest of her family, either. Brave I can see, at least, but overall there seems to be a ton more evidence for Shash.

[Meandering Monotreme]

I have to point out that it makes perfect sense for Jasnah to be order 2 and Shallan to be order 6. Look at the picture on the cover. It is a picture of the orders (the big circles)and how they are connected to the powers (the small circles). I would assume that orders 5 and 6 are in the center, and if you number it in a boustrophedon way (down the first column, up the next, down the third) then the powers coincide perfectly.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I have to point out that it makes perfect sense for Jasnah to be order 2 and Shallan to be order 6. Look at the picture on the cover. It is a picture of the orders (the big circles)and how they are connected to the powers (the small circles). I would assume that orders 5 and 6 are in the center, and if you number it in a boustrophedon way (down the first column, up the next, down the third) then the powers coincide perfectly.

???

If I understand your numbering order, then #2 is the purple circle second from the top left, and #6 is the yellow circle in the middle, which don't share a small circle.

[Ari he/him]

And once again I'm really annoyed we don't get that diagram in the World English version. Bloody Orbit.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

And once again I'm really annoyed we don't get that diagram in the World English version. Bloody Orbit.

Yes, but you do get the diagram in the Brandon is awesome version. You can find all the interior pictures here.

[ulyssessword he/him]

I'm fairly sure that the numbering runs clockwise from the top right. This is because the colour of each symbol would then align perfectly with the colour of the associated gemstone. Something like:

.9......1.
8...10...2
7....5...3
.6......4.

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

I'm fairly sure that the numbering runs clockwise from the top right. This is because the colour of each symbol would then align perfectly with the colour of the associated gemstone. Something like:

.9......1.
8...10...2
7....5...3
.6......4.

This is genius. It makes Shallan and Jasnah sharing a power rather inconvenient, though.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Sir Read-a-Lot

[dj26792 he/him]

or it means we have one of their orders wrong.

Also, I think they could quite easily be orders 5 and 6. Jasnah is extremely Confident in everything she does, and has been pointedly just more than once.

And there has been very little argument for Shallan to be any order other than 6 except to fit with Jasnah being learned and giving for order 2.

Edited December 8, 2011 by dj26792

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

or it means we have one of their orders wrong.

Also, I think they could quite easily be orders 5 and 6. Jasnah is extremely Confident in everything she does, and has been pointedly just more than once.

And there has been very little argument for Shallan to be any order other than 6 except to fit with Jasnah being learned and giving for order 2.

Except that we were told that there was a typo in the Ars Arcanum - that Learned/Giving is actually #5, and Just/Confident is #2. This, along with all the other indicators, puts Jasnah very strongly in #2.

[dj26792 he/him]

Ahh, I knew there was a mistake so I used the one off the wiki assuming it would have been fixed, but its wrong too.

there goes my attempt at being intelligent, I'll (try) and fix the wiki

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Except that we were told that there was a typo in the Ars Arcanum - that Learned/Giving is actually #5, and Just/Confident is #2. This, along with all the other indicators, puts Jasnah very strongly in #2.

I always thought learned/giving fit Jasnah better than just/confident, mainly for the "learned" bit. Don't the Herald picture chapter headings make more sense as well with Jasnah in 5 and Shallan in 6?

[treblkickd he/him]

So on this topic, how much do we really know about the definitions or boundaries between one "power" and another (where power here refers to the small symbols on the interior cover art, two of which are linked to each Radiant order)? There's also ambiguity about how exactly to use other related terminology. For example, everyone seems comfortable saying that Kaladin is a member of order #1 (Jez), and is a Windrunner. Szeth also refers to himself as a Windrunner (or at least as having the same powers, maybe?), which would all seem to imply that Windrunner = user of the two powers linked to the first Radiant Order. But we don't have any terms to describe those two individual powers, right? Surgebinding seems to be a catchall term to describe using one (or more?) of those powers, but are there are terms that describe the specific powers that Kaladin, for example, uses in WoK?

Anyway, I have two thoughts in mind that are related to the questions above. One is just to quickly say that if Jasnah is, in fact, of Radiant Order #2, or has the same powers, as that order, then she should share a power with Kaladin (assuming that the diagram is laid out in the way that was proposed above, which makes sense given the orders' links to gems, and the colors of the symbols in the interior art). So what in the world is this power that Jasnah might share with Kaladin? Presumably we've only seen Jasnah use one power, but what about Kaladin: have we seen him use just one power, or two? I'm a year removed from my last WoK read, but I thought I remembered something in the description (from Szeth's PoV) about Szeth's Lashings (ugh, another term that needs to be fit in and used appropriately) not all originating from the same fundamental thing (i.e. the range of Lashings used by Windrunners could encompass both "powers" that Windrunners have access to). Am I remembering things corrrectly? If so, does this imply that we've already seen Szeth and Kaladin use both of the powers that are associated with the first (Jez) Radiant order?

[Arcanist Lupus he/him]

So on this topic, how much do we really know about the definitions or boundaries between one "power" and another (where power here refers to the small symbols on the interior cover art, two of which are linked to each Radiant order)? There's also ambiguity about how exactly to use other related terminology. For example, everyone seems comfortable saying that Kaladin is a member of order #1 (Jez), and is a Windrunner. Szeth also refers to himself as a Windrunner (or at least as having the same powers, maybe?), which would all seem to imply that Windrunner = user of the two powers linked to the first Radiant Order. But we don't have any terms to describe those two individual powers, right? Surgebinding seems to be a catchall term to describe using one (or more?) of those powers, but are there are terms that describe the specific powers that Kaladin, for example, uses in WoK?

Anyway, I have two thoughts in mind that are related to the questions above. One is just to quickly say that if Jasnah is, in fact, of Radiant Order #2, or has the same powers, as that order, then she should share a power with Kaladin (assuming that the diagram is laid out in the way that was proposed above, which makes sense given the orders' links to gems, and the colors of the symbols in the interior art). So what in the world is this power that Jasnah might share with Kaladin? Presumably we've only seen Jasnah use one power, but what about Kaladin: have we seen him use just one power, or two? I'm a year removed from my last WoK read, but I thought I remembered something in the description (from Szeth's PoV) about Szeth's Lashings (ugh, another term that needs to be fit in and used appropriately) not all originating from the same fundamental thing (i.e. the range of Lashings used by Windrunners could encompass both "powers" that Windrunners have access to). Am I remembering things corrrectly? If so, does this imply that we've already seen Szeth and Kaladin use both of the powers that are associated with the first (Jez) Radiant order?

The two surges that Kaladin and Szeth use are Pressure and Gravity. The Basic Lashing uses gravity, the Full Lashing uses pressure, and the Reverse Lashing uses gravity again. We've seen Szeth use all three lashings. Kaladin has only used the Full Lashing and the Reverse Lashing, but those confirm that he has access to both Pressure and Gravity.

It would seem that if Jasnah is in Order 2, then she should share a Surge with Kaladin, either Pressure or Gravity. However, by the same logic, she would not share a Surge with Shallan. So either she isn't in order 2, or adjacent orders don't necessarily share powers, thus indicating that Jasnah probably doesn't share Surges with Kaladin.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

yes, the Basic and Reverse Lashings are based off Gravity, the Full Lashing is based off Pressure.

edit: ninja'd!

Just to make this post useful, Brandon had said that "Szeth is not a Radiant, something different is happening with Szeth.", so Szeth is getting his powers differently from Kaladin who is on thepath to being a Radiant.

Edited December 8, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[Catalyst21 he/him]

yes, the Basic and Reverse Lashings are based off Gravity, the Full Lashing is based off Pressure.

edit: ninja'd!

Just to make this post useful, Brandon had said that "Szeth is not a Radiant, something different is happening with Szeth.", so Szeth is getting his powers differently from Kaladin who is on thepath to being a Radiant.

just to source your quote:

source=http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/446239-q-a-with-brandon-sanderson-way-of-kings

Message 21 (page 1):

Do Szeth and Kaladin both belong to the same order of knights radiant?

Message 52 (page 2):

Jay wrote: "Do Szeth and Kaladin both belong to the same order of knights radiant?"

Szeth isn't actually in an order of Knights Radiant. Something different is happening with Szeth that people have already begun to guess. And Kaladin isn't yet a Knight Radiant, but the powers he uses are those of the Windrunners, one of the orders of the Knights Radiant. Szeth is using the same power set. So your phrasing is accurate to that extent.

[treblkickd he/him]

Right, so Kaladin is using both of the powers that are accessible to him as a Windrunner. Also Szeth is using those same powers, and no additional radiant-related powers that we've seen, regardless of where they come from.

Does anyone think that we might also have seen multiple powers used by Jasnah? Certainly she can soulcast (which is based on transformation, yes?), but could the lightening bolt trick be the result of her second power or does she explicitly say that she is soulcasting when she did that?