Death rattles and the future

[Yolenlightweaver]

This may have been previously discussed but as I have been reading RoW it got me thinking. We see multiple manifestations of reading the future in the cosmere and specifically with odium vs taravangian/diagram, odium makes the point genius-taravangian see the same as odium but odium sees deeper. Whether flawlessly or not the diagram is successful but it poses the question, are all previous manifestations of foretelling still viable?

 

A lot of discussion has taken place about predicting death rattles in relation to Stormlight 5 but how many of those are invalidated by the specific path the future followed? Or are those ones given to us specifically by Brandon since they are part of the true path of events? I would love your take. 

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Yolenlightweaver said:

This may have been previously discussed but as I have been reading RoW it got me thinking. We see multiple manifestations of reading the future in the cosmere and specifically with odium vs taravangian/diagram, odium makes the point genius-taravangian see the same as odium but odium sees deeper. Whether flawlessly or not the diagram is successful but it poses the question, are all previous manifestations of foretelling still viable?

A lot of discussion has taken place about predicting death rattles in relation to Stormlight 5 but how many of those are invalidated by the specific path the future followed? Or are those ones given to us specifically by Brandon since they are part of the true path of events? I would love your take. 

The difference between Taravangian and Rayse was that Taravangian achieved all of that without access to Fortune - Fortune is a way of accessing Spiritual Realm. This is impressive, as Fortune is often used to see the Future. Odium has his Shardic powers, he exists primarily in the Spiritual Realm, he can see the Future much further. From all the ways of the future sight, Shardic future sight is the most powerful one.

And I think the Diagram did predict Ascension to Odium ("You must become king. Of Everything.") and guided Taravangian all the way up.

But the Diagram had some mistakes, one notable is that Dalinar didn't fall to Odium (which is still possible because of the rules of the Duel of Champions), didn't predict Renarin's future (because of his future sight) and the Diagram didn't mention Nightblood.  

That's why it's possible that some of the Death Rattles might have some mistakes, or be vague on purpose. But at the very end of RoW we've seen another Death Rattle fulfilled - Kaladin swearing 4th Idea. Some Death Rattles might predict events beyond SA 5. 

I think that from the storytelling reasons, including Death Rattles that are no longer valid and are predicting different paths of the Future is kind of a waste. They won't add much to the book and would be just a wasted potential - if they remain unexplained.

[Yolenlightweaver]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The difference between Taravangian and Rayse was that Taravangian achieved all of that without access to Fortune - Fortune is a way of accessing Spiritual Realm. This is impressive, as Fortune is often used to see the Future. Odium has his Shardic powers, he exists primarily in the Spiritual Realm, he can see the Future much further. From all the ways of the future sight, Shardic future sight is the most powerful one.

And I think the Diagram did predict Ascension to Odium ("You must become king. Of Everything.") and guided Taravangian all the way up.

But the Diagram had some mistakes, one notable is that Dalinar didn't fall to Odium (which is still possible because of the rules of the Duel of Champions), didn't predict Renarin's future (because of his future sight) and the Diagram didn't mention Nightblood.  

That's why it's possible that some of the Death Rattles might have some mistakes, or be vague on purpose. But at the very end of RoW we've seen another Death Rattle fulfilled - Kaladin swearing 4th Idea. Some Death Rattles might predict events beyond SA 5. 

I think that from the storytelling reasons, including Death Rattles that are no longer valid and are predicting different paths of the Future is kind of a waste. They won't add much to the book and would be just a wasted potential - if they remain unexplained.

That is what I was looking at but this WoB implies he only used fortune and assumed it was intelligence:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174/#e8447

Sorry, I don’t know how to clip WoB well. It is #38. 

I do agree with the storytelling method, and I hope some go beyond SA5 as some theories, including Taravodiums champion I’m not a fan of. 

If both Rayse and Taravangian had Fortune, did Rayse not predict the outcome since he couldn’t track the sword? If so why could Cultivation?

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Yolenlightweaver said:

That is what I was looking at but this WoB implies he only used fortune and assumed it was intelligence:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174/#e8447

Sorry, I don’t know how to clip WoB well. It is #38. 

The WoB shows properly. Use "share" to copy the link to the WoB, or "copy" copy and paste the entire WoB, like me below.

There are different ways of gaining future sight, not every one of them involves Fortune. Accessing the Spiritual Realm directly is one of those ways:

Spoiler

Chaos

Odium said to Taravangian, "You did this without access to Fortune or the Spiritual Realm?" How does one access Fortune without the Spiritual Realm or Feruchemical chromium, as almost all future sight tends to utilize the Spiritual Realm in some way?

Brandon Sanderson

So, that line is mostly just me saying... *long pause* I think you're picking apart those things too much.

Chaos

Right, that makes sense. Hey, Odium said it, so I didn't know-- Gotta take that seriously, so.

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, don't read too much into picking apart those two things. You can read it as-- Honestly, that is me making sure I am being clear in the text.

Chaos

That there are those are two different things.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah those are two different things, but they are just interrelated. Fortune is a property, and the Spiritual Realm is a place, but not a place. Do you know what I mean? To use Fortune, you're always involving the Spiritual Realm, but in the Spiritual Realm, you're not always involving Fortune.

MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018)

 

4 minutes ago, Yolenlightweaver said:

If both Rayse and Taravangian had Fortune, did Rayse not predict the outcome since he couldn’t track the sword? If so why could Cultivation?

Rayse had troubles predicting the future, because of Renarin - he was close with Taravangian in his last days. And Renarin was also close to Szeth, which made both Szeth (with Nightblood) and Taravangian very hard to see for Odium. It's not that he couldn't see them, it's that he saw so many different possibilities, that his future vision became just very imprecise and unreliable. Renarin could see the future, and could react to Odium's future moves, which made Odium see a different future, which made Renarin see another different future etc. All of this makes them both see hundreds of different futures, every one of them is equally as likely to happen and they have no idea which one is true. Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Just like Atium shows massive amounts of shadows for the person who is also burning Atium.

Cultivation saw a multitude of different possibilities and she just rolled the dice, stuck to one of them and hoped for the best. She explained how she did it, RoW ch 114:

Quote

“They showed you this possibility, I assume,” Taravangian said, looking at infinity. “But this isn’t nearly as ... certain as I imagined it. It shows you things that can happen, but not the hearts of those who act. How did you dare try something like this? How did you know I’d be up to the challenge?”

“I didn’t,” she said. “I couldn’t. You were heading this direction—all I could do was hope that if you succeeded, my gift would work. That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor.”

 

 

[Yolenlightweaver]

That makes a lot of sense, thank you!