Shardplate as a living creature

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

There's been a lot of shardplate theories flying around, so I thought I might get in on the action. 

I think that Shardplate might be it's own class of magical creature/living being. I've got a few points to back it up:

1. Shardplate can't be cut by a shardblade. This one is flimsy at best, but I think it's a good starting point. Shardblades cut through any material, unless that material is living. I know this could also be a product of the investiture in the plate, but if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that shardplate that has been completely drained of stormlight could still withstand one hit from a shardblade before exploding, instead of just being sliced clean through. I'm not sure exactly what would be required to 'kill' shardplate to get rid of this property, but it's not a terribly far stretch to say that part of its resistance to shardblades is due to its own innate life investiture. 
2. Shardplate feeds on Stormlight and investiture. So far, we have only seen one inanimate object that could feed on Stormlight, and that would be Nightblood, who we could also classify as a living thing, due to its awakening. Other than that, we've only seen living things feeding on stormlight. The gemstones may contain it, but it doesn't feed on it, whereas the living things do-larkin, Ryshadium, surgebinders/other magic users. The fact that it can use the stormlight by itself I think is a big point in my theories' favor.
3. Shardplate satisfies almost all the characteristics of living things

• Shardplate is composed of its own cells-the tiny interlocking plates
• Shardplate has its own rudimentary levels of organization that lead to a whole. Different pieces of armor organize together to make the different extremities and things for the user. This isn't the same as cell-tissue-organ-organ system-organism, but it's not too far off.
• Shardplate uses energy-stormlight.
• Shardplate responds to the environment. This can be shown when the shardplate adapts to its user to fit. 
• Shardplate grows. Using stormlight, you can regrow pieces of the plate, with or without a feeder piece, which speeds the process (stem cell parallel?) 
• Reproduction. This is the one that's iffy. We don't know if shardplate reproduces, but we also don't know where it comes from. This is a possibility, albeit a small one, that the shardplate needs to reproduce somehow to get more plate.
• Shardplate adapts to its environment. We saw this when Adolin was struck by Stormform lightening. After the initial attack, his visor darkens along the path of the lightening to stop it from blinding him, and it hums when struck by the lightening, adapting to the attack relatively quickly after it started. 

     4. Shardplate uses Stormlight to grow. The Parshendi use Stormlight to grow food. Water from highstorms yields healthier plants than other water. 

     

 

That's all I've got for now. Thoughts?

[Terisen he/him]

Wild theory here, but I wonder if the Shardplate we see is the soul of the Radiant (or something akin to it).  There was a cost for the spren for the broken bond (they died and were left as Blades).  I'd venture that the cost for the Radiants was their soul, which was left as Shardplate.  You can see that they were almost zombie-like when Dalinar ran after them in the vision.  The other people would react to him, so it's not like these couldn't see or hear him.

[Left he/him]

Wild theory here, but I wonder if the Shardplate we see is the soul of the Radiant (or something akin to it).  There was a cost for the spren for the broken bond (they died and were left as Blades).  I'd venture that the cost for the Radiants was their soul, which was left as Shardplate.  You can see that they were almost zombie-like when Dalinar ran after them in the vision.  The other people would react to him, so it's not like these couldn't see or hear him.

I really like that idea. The Shardplate is what the Radiant brings to the bond, and the spren is the blade. I really like that.

[11thorderknight]

Wild theory here, but I wonder if the Shardplate we see is the soul of the Radiant (or something akin to it).  There was a cost for the spren for the broken bond (they died and were left as Blades).  I'd venture that the cost for the Radiants was their soul, which was left as Shardplate.  You can see that they were almost zombie-like when Dalinar ran after them in the vision.  The other people would react to him, so it's not like these couldn't see or hear him.

 

This has been my theory all along. It is a perfect parallel to the spen/Blade, and explains the differences between Plate and Blade. As I've pointed out before, the properties of Plate are all, essentially, the most powerful version of stormlight enhancement: strength, speed, durability, regeneration (of the plate rather than the wearer, since the plate absorbs the damage). 

 

My theory is that a level 5 Radiant will be able to manifest Plate as the ultimate expression of his ability to hold and use stormlight. They may even be able to hold stormlight perfectly, or at least as good a a cut gemstone.

[Shaggai]

I expect that Plate is a spren, bonded to a suit of armor. That explains the use of Stormlight for power/healing, the benefits to the wearer, the adaptation, the complexity, the ability to block Shardblades, and the fact that it cracks when struck. It's still a Physical object, but there's a spren enhancing it. The gemstones serve two purposes: first, to hold Stormlight, and second, to form a minor bond with the wearer that allows it to adapt (somewhat like the bond with dead Blades, but not as strong). 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Shaggai

[Zea mays]

Wild theory here, but I wonder if the Shardplate we see is the soul of the Radiant (or something akin to it).  There was a cost for the spren for the broken bond (they died and were left as Blades).  I'd venture that the cost for the Radiants was their soul, which was left as Shardplate.  You can see that they were almost zombie-like when Dalinar ran after them in the vision.  The other people would react to him, so it's not like these couldn't see or hear him.

I really like this theory. It works nicely with the way the Parshendi forms somewhat parallel the Radiant's spren bonds. When the Parshendi bond to the right spren for war-form (which is?) they grow carapace armor. So, when the Radiant perfect their nahel bond, they "grow" shard plate.

 

Kaladin makes himself armor from dead Parshendi carapace bits, and even he finds that disturbing. Now (assuming Tersien is right) imagine everyone's reaction when they realise what the shardplate is...

[Terisen he/him]

I really like this theory. It works nicely with the way the Parshendi forms somewhat parallel the Radiant's spren bonds. When the Parshendi bond to the right spren for war-form (which is?) they grow carapace armor. So, when the Radiant perfect their nahel bond, they "grow" shard plate.

 

Kaladin makes himself armor from dead Parshendi carapace bits, and even he finds that disturbing. Now (assuming Tersien is right) imagine everyone's reaction when they realise what the shardplate is...

 

The point about the Parshendi armor is a good one.  I don't know if it necessarily the same thing, but it would make sense.

 

Using Voidbringers as slaves, swinging around dead spren as weapon and wearing other people's souls as armor.  Man, Roshar is one messed up place! 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Wild theory here, but I wonder if the Shardplate we see is the soul of the Radiant (or something akin to it).  There was a cost for the spren for the broken bond (they died and were left as Blades).  I'd venture that the cost for the Radiants was their soul, which was left as Shardplate.  You can see that they were almost zombie-like when Dalinar ran after them in the vision.  The other people would react to him, so it's not like these couldn't see or hear him.

 

I see this a highly improbable. I think if a Radiant with a bond is able to sense the spren's screaming in a blade, there would be some sort of reaction if the plate is a former Radiant's soul. If this was the cost for the broken spren bond, we'd also see more plate than there is, as all the Radiants didn't have plate, even though it was available to them, so what happened to their souls when they broke their bonds? 

 

As for the zombie-like state, if I had killed my best friend, and turned my back on sacred oaths, I wouldn't exactly be in a talkative mood either. It's also right about the time when Tanavast starts his monologue during the vision, and we don't have an example where someone interacts with Dalinar when Tanavast is talking. I'd have to guess that Tanavast would end the interactions in the vision when he starts his info dump, that way there are no distractions other than the rest of the scene playing out. 

 

Also, if this is a human parallel to Parshendi forms, that doesn't add up either, since the Parshendi have so many different forms. Wouldn't there be different versions of Shardplate for different tasks? Wouldn't there have to be different forms of Shardplate for the 10 different types of spren bonded to the Radiants? 

 

Finally, it takes a 'cracked' or 'broken' soul to gain access to investiture, so it seems to me that the plate couldn't be a manifestation of the human soul, as it would be too incongruous to have the ultimate form of defense come solely from a flawed medium. 

[Swimmingly he/him]

I think this might have to do with the way the things Syl was talking about - when a person dies, some crucial quality is lost, but when a spren dies, it just...becomes broken. Perhaps the crucial piece of the soul in the Cosmere, the one that moves beyond, is simply not contained in the Shardplate. What's left is a husk, a dead shell with incidental reactionary functionality but nothing else.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Sorry,but are you referencing the OP or Terisen's counter theory?

[Terisen he/him]

I see this a highly improbable. I think if a Radiant with a bond is able to sense the spren's screaming in a blade, there would be some sort of reaction if the plate is a former Radiant's soul. If this was the cost for the broken spren bond, we'd also see more plate than there is, as all the Radiants didn't have plate, even though it was available to them, so what happened to their souls when they broke their bonds? 

 

I don't know if we can assume that there'd be the "screaming" with the plate.  If the plate is made up of something else that died (like another spren), wouldn't there be screaming as well?  And I don't think we can assume that there'd necessarily be more Plate around because Dalinar saw over 200 Blades being abandoned in his vision with just 2 orders and noted that was more Blades than there were known on Roshar at his time.

 

 

As for the zombie-like state, if I had killed my best friend, and turned my back on sacred oaths, I wouldn't exactly be in a talkative mood either. It's also right about the time when Tanavast starts his monologue during the vision, and we don't have an example where someone interacts with Dalinar when Tanavast is talking. I'd have to guess that Tanavast would end the interactions in the vision when he starts his info dump, that way there are no distractions other than the rest of the scene playing out. 

 

Tanavast doesn't start talking right away.  Dalinar gets some words out with no reactions first.  He even grabbed a Radiant who just ignored him well before Tanavast spoke.  Some quotes from that scene

 

 

They all seemed individuals now, each walking alone despite the crowd.

....

They walked with eyes forward, not speaking to one another, steps slow but resolute.

...

None of them spoke.  It was if he didn't exist.

 

This seems more to me than being despondent over killing their spren.  Something else within them died.

 

Also, if this is a human parallel to Parshendi forms, that doesn't add up either, since the Parshendi have so many different forms. Wouldn't there be different versions of Shardplate for different tasks? Wouldn't there have to be different forms of Shardplate for the 10 different types of spren bonded to the Radiants? 

 

There might have been.  Dalinar wonders why there wasn't Shardplate for working as it made it so much easier to dig the trench.  

 

 

Where were the Shards for the regular men?  Why hadn't the ancients, who were so wise, created anything to help them?

 

I feel this was put in as more than just idle words from a character.  Feels like a hint to me, though I admit it's possible I'm looking to far into it.

[Shaggai]

1. I don't know if we can assume that there'd be the "screaming" with the plate.  If the plate is made up of something else that died (like another spren), wouldn't there be screaming as well?  And I don't think we can assume that there'd necessarily be more Plate around because Dalinar saw over 200 Blades being abandoned in his vision with just 2 orders and noted that was more Blades than there were known on Roshar at his time.

 

 

 

Tanavast doesn't start talking right away.  Dalinar gets some words out with no reactions first.  He even grabbed a Radiant who just ignored him well before Tanavast spoke.  Some quotes from that scene

 

 

2. This seems more to me than being despondent over killing their spren.  Something else within them died.

 

 

3. There might have been.  Dalinar wonders why there wasn't Shardplate for working as it made it so much easier to dig the trench.  

 

 

4. I feel this was put in as more than just idle words from a character.  Feels like a hint to me, though I admit it's possible I'm looking to far into it.

1. Only if it was a fully-bonded Nahel spren. If it was a lesser spren attached to a suit of armor, it wouldn't scream because it wouldn't have had part of its consciousness ripped out.

2. They just broke their sacred oaths and murdered their spren. It's also implied that this was because of some massive, devastating revelation. I think that would explain it.

3. Shardplate works perfectly well for digging trenches. He's talking about Shardblades there. That's why there are no "Shards for the regular men". Shardblades default to swords upon death. And even if he was talking about Plate, why would none of the specialized Plate still exist? It would be different for the different Orders, according to your theory, so it would have a different default.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

I don't know if we can assume that there'd be the "screaming" with the plate.  If the plate is made up of something else that died (like another spren), wouldn't there be screaming as well?  And I don't think we can assume that there'd necessarily be more Plate around because Dalinar saw over 200 Blades being abandoned in his vision with just 2 orders and noted that was more Blades than there were known on Roshar at his time.

 

 

Well, if it's the soul of the Radiant as you suggest, I'd certainly expect there to be some backlash from it. I don't think he plate is made up of something that died, but rather something that is still living in a rudimentary way. Something akin to Nightblood, but less sentient. So what plants are to us, Shardplate would be to Nightblood. 

 

But there's also more blades around than plate, if the number of blade only shardbearers is compared to the number of plate only shardbearers. If the Shardplate is the loss of someones soul because of breaking their oaths, what would the cost be to the Radiants that didn't take up Shardplate?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tanavast doesn't start talking right away.  Dalinar gets some words out with no reactions first.  He even grabbed a Radiant who just ignored him well before Tanavast spoke.  Some quotes from that sceneThis seems more to me than being despondent over killing their spren.  Something else within them died.

 

 

I should've done my research on that one. Thanks for the correction.  But I stand by my point and agree with Shaggai, if they'd had their souls ripped out, they would be completely comatose, not just indifferent. 

 

[Terisen he/him]

Well, if it's the soul of the Radiant as you suggest, I'd certainly expect there to be some backlash from it. I don't think he plate is made up of something that died, but rather something that is still living in a rudimentary way. Something akin to Nightblood, but less sentient. So what plants are to us, Shardplate would be to Nightblood. 

 

I don't think it's "alive" like a plant or anything specifically based upon how different the Plate looks and acts in Dalinar's visions versus what is seen of Plate in modern times.  The Radiant's Plate glows with glyphs lit up, something modern Plate won't do.  Same with the faceplates that appear and reappear at will for the Radiants.  This hints to me that the Plate does not have to be assembled on the Radiant like what Dalinar and Adolin have to do.  Something drastic happened to the Plate during the Recreance.  I'm still betting on the fact the Plate "died" like the Shardblades did.  I'm hanging on to my theory that the Shardplate is made of the Radiant's soul until we get a WoB or the books state otherwise (because I'm stubborn like that  ).

 

 

But there's also more blades around than plate, if the number of blade only shardbearers is compared to the number of plate only shardbearers. If the Shardplate is the loss of someones soul because of breaking their oaths, what would the cost be to the Radiants that didn't take up Shardplate? 

 

I ask this honestly because I can't remember for sure:  Do we have a number (or estimate) on this somewhere?  Dalinar only mentions that there's less than a hundred known Blades, but doesn't say anything about the number of sets of Plate.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

I don't think it's "alive" like a plant or anything specifically based upon how different the Plate looks and acts in Dalinar's visions versus what is seen of Plate in modern times.  The Radiant's Plate glows with glyphs lit up, something modern Plate won't do.  Same with the faceplates that appear and reappear at will for the Radiants.  This hints to me that the Plate does not have to be assembled on the Radiant like what Dalinar and Adolin have to do.  Something drastic happened to the Plate during the Recreance.  I'm still betting on the fact the Plate "died" like the Shardblades did.  I'm hanging on to my theory that the Shardplate is made of the Radiant's soul until we get a WoB or the books state otherwise (because I'm stubborn like that  ).

 

Well, if you look at the OP, Shardplate actually qualifies for 6/7 of the characteristics all living things share, definitely, and could fit the last one. As of right now, I'd define Shardplate as more close to being a living organism than a virus. It might not be as powerful as it was before, but it still has abilities that are not too far removed from the helmet being summoned. It adapts to the user. Just because it doesn't glow with Glyphs doesn't mean it's not alive, just that it's not as powerful as it used to be. It could be that modern artifabrians haven't figured out how to link Shardplate to the user like a Shardblade, and that's why it can't be summoned. This also woulnd't mean that the Shardplate would scream when used, because we know Blades don't have to be bonded to cause the screaming. 

 

If the Plate is dead soul, I definitely expect some sort of feedback like with the Shardblades, which is a big flaw in your theory. Why would a Spren's soul scream, but a human soul would not? 

 

 

 

I ask this honestly because I can't remember for sure:  Do we have a number (or estimate) on this somewhere?  Dalinar only mentions that there's less than a hundred known Blades, but doesn't say anything about the number of sets of Plate.

 

I don't believe so, which is why I based my assumption on the number of Plate only Shardbearers vs the number of Blade only Shardbearers we've seen on screen. 

 

You've also not addressed what would happen to the souls of those Radiants who broke their oaths but did not have Shardplate. Did they escape unscathed?

 

In the Lift chapter, Wyndle mentions growing crystals in the Cognitive Realm, and that's where I based this idea off of. If the spren can grow crystals from the minds of men, it's possible they can grow other things as well, such as Shardplate. 

[Guest]

I don't think it's "alive" like a plant or anything specifically based upon how different the Plate looks and acts in Dalinar's visions versus what is seen of Plate in modern times.  The Radiant's Plate glows with glyphs lit up, something modern Plate won't do.  Same with the faceplates that appear and reappear at will for the Radiants.  This hints to me that the Plate does not have to be assembled on the Radiant like what Dalinar and Adolin have to do.  Something drastic happened to the Plate during the Recreance.  I'm still betting on the fact the Plate "died" like the Shardblades did.  I'm hanging on to my theory that the Shardplate is made of the Radiant's soul until we get a WoB or the books state otherwise (because I'm stubborn like that  ).

 

I do not have much to contribute to this interesting discussion, but this last bit has me thinking: didn't Adolin's plate came sort of came to life when he was struck with lightning? Wasn't there a "hmmm" or a vibration of some sort? If the plate was indeed "dead" as you assumed, would it still be able to behave in such way? It felt quite "alive" in that scene.........

[Terisen he/him]

Well, if you look at the OP, Shardplate actually qualifies for 6/7 of the characteristics all living things share, definitely, and could fit the last one. As of right now, I'd define Shardplate as more close to being a living organism than a virus. It might not be as powerful as it was before, but it still has abilities that are not too far removed from the helmet being summoned. It adapts to the user. Just because it doesn't glow with Glyphs doesn't mean it's not alive, just that it's not as powerful as it used to be. It could be that modern artifabrians haven't figured out how to link Shardplate to the user like a Shardblade, and that's why it can't be summoned. This also woulnd't mean that the Shardplate would scream when used, because we know Blades don't have to be bonded to cause the screaming. 

 

If the Plate is dead soul, I definitely expect some sort of feedback like with the Shardblades, which is a big flaw in your theory. Why would a Spren's soul scream, but a human soul would not? 

 

I was under the impression that the bond with the Shardblade was not done via fabrial.  The gem was simply more of a decorative feature than a functional one.  Therefore, I wouldn't expect the Plate to need a fabrial to be bonded (if, indeed, it ever could).  As for the screaming, I don't think it's a 1 to 1 comparison of Blade to Plate.  The Blade isn't the soul of the spren (ie, a part of a spren).  It's the whole spren itself.  The Plate would only be part of a Radiant.  It may well be the spiritual portion of the Radiant, which I would definitely not expect screaming in the head (spren are Cognitive beings, so the screams are heard in the mind).

 

 

You've also not addressed what would happen to the souls of those Radiants who broke their oaths but did not have Shardplate. Did they escape unscathed?

 

Well, this WoB can go two ways:

 

QUESTION

Did all orders of Knights Radiants use Shardplate?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It was available to all of them, and they could (all) use it. Many Knights (not Orders) chose not to. There were Knights who were not soldiers and had not interest in wearing Shardplate.

 

I choose to read this as they just didn't manifest the Plate because they weren't soldiers, not because they couldn't.  So, to answer your question, they would have indeed "dropped" the Plate.  It's all speculation because we only see the Recreance with two Orders that definitely were Plate users.

 

In the Lift chapter, Wyndle mentions growing crystals in the Cognitive Realm, and that's where I based this idea off of. If the spren can grow crystals from the minds of men, it's possible they can grow other things as well, such as Shardplate. 

 

This is definitely an interesting possibility.  I like this as well.

 

I do not have much to contribute to this interesting discussion, but this last bit has me thinking: didn't Adolin's plate came sort of came to life when he was struck with lightning? Wasn't there a "hmmm" or a vibration of some sort? If the plate was indeed "dead" as you assumed, would it still be able to behave in such way? It felt quite "alive" in that scene.........

 

You are correct about that scene.  The plate did vibrate.  I don't think it means that it can only be something that's alive.  A blast of Investiture can do things.  Plus, it was a blast of Odium Investiture, which may have reacted bad with a Radiant's soul.  Wild speculation on my part there, though.

[Fatebreaker he/him]

Living Shardplate is an interesting theory. I could see it being similar to coral, in that it's one cohesive unit formed by uniting countless minuscule organisms, or in this case tiny spren. I'm fairly sure this isn't accurate, but I find it an interesting concept.

[dyring]

One point to the OP

 

You say shardblade cuts anything except the living.

 

Well, yes. But living does not repell it the way shardplate do. The shardblade still goes through. If someone "cuts" a live person with a shardblade, the shardplate will still go through him and cut through the clothes(or wall or whatever) behind him.

 

Thus, if it was the living part of the shardplate, the blade would just move through without cutting it, and still kill the person inside it.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

 

I was under the impression that the bond with the Shardblade was not done via fabrial.  The gem was simply more of a decorative feature than a functional one.  Therefore, I wouldn't expect the Plate to need a fabrial to be bonded (if, indeed, it ever could).  As for the screaming, I don't think it's a 1 to 1 comparison of Blade to Plate.  The Blade isn't the soul of the spren (ie, a part of a spren).  It's the whole spren itself.  The Plate would only be part of a Radiant.  It may well be the spiritual portion of the Radiant, which I would definitely not expect screaming in the head (spren are Cognitive beings, so the screams are heard in the mind).

 

 

Actually, it's because the were trying to decorate the Blades that they discovered the bonding:

 

 

"Our breakthrough was realizing that the that the gemstones in the Blades-used to bond them-might not have been originally part of the weapons."

...

"...She came up with a scrap from several decades after the recreance which talks about men learning to summon and dismissBlades by adding gemstones to them, an accident of ornamentation it seems."

...

"We had been assuming that somehow the strength and lightness of the Blade was a fabrial construct powered by the gemstone," Navavani said. "This might not be the case. It seems that the gemstones purpose is only used in initially bonding the Blade-something that the Radiants didn't need to do."

"Wait. They didn't"

"Not if this fragment is correct. The implication is the Radiants could always dismiss and summon Blades-but for a time the ability was lost. It was only recovered when someone added a gemstone to his Blade. The fragment says the weapon actually shifted shape to adopt the stones, but I'm not certain if I trust that."

WoR Chapter 67 Spit and Bile

 

 

I think we've reached an 'agree to disagree' moment on the screaming, your points are definitely plausible, and justified on that. I just don't agree because I'm stubborn like that 

 

One point to the OP

 

You say shardblade cuts anything except the living.

 

Well, yes. But living does not repell it the way shardplate do. The shardblade still goes through. If someone "cuts" a live person with a shardblade, the shardplate will still go through him and cut through the clothes(or wall or whatever) behind him.

 

Thus, if it was the living part of the shardplate, the blade would just move through without cutting it, and still kill the person inside it.

 

 

That's an excellent counterpoint that I really can't account for. Not sure why I didn't account for that when I first wrote the post, but it had clicked like that after reading it a couple times. The best I can give is to shrug my shoulders and say "eh....Magic?"

[Terisen he/him]

I think we've reached an 'agree to disagree' moment on the screaming, your points are definitely plausible, and justified on that. I just don't agree because I'm stubborn like that 

 

Hah, yeah, I came to the same conclusion!  I think some good points have been made here and it's given me a lot to think about.  I honestly would not be surprised to see either of these turn out to be what Shardplate is.  Is the next book out yet?  

[Tobbzn]

What if bondsmiths are literal smiths, able to forge plate from others' Nahel bonds?

[Guest]

On the decorating gemstones potentially enabling bonding on the shardblades.... We also know one has to break the gemstone in order to fully severed the bond. On shardholder can release its bond, but as long as the gemstone remains, the bond could be re-enacted.

 

What to say about that?

 

How does the bond between shadblade and shadowner works? And how is it related to the shardplate and its powering gemstones?

[11thorderknight]

On the decorating gemstones potentially enabling bonding on the shardblades.... We also know one has to break the gemstone in order to fully severed the bond. On shardholder can release its bond, but as long as the gemstone remains, the bond could be re-enacted.

 

What to say about that?

 

How does the bond between shadblade and shadowner works? And how is it related to the shardplate and its powering gemstones?

 

Actually, that's not correct. In Adolin's first duel scene, he specifically thinks that it is NOT necessary to break the gemstone, but that it has become a tradition of sorts to do so.

[Guest]

Actually, that's not correct. In Adolin's first duel scene, he specifically thinks that it is NOT necessary to break the gemstone, but that it has become a tradition of sorts to do so.

 

Oh really? I may have read it wrong there. However, I though Navani's discovery indicated it may be the case.