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A couple of hemalurgy questions (spoilers for AoL)


Firiel

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Okay, just finished reading Alloy of Law, and it brought up a couple of questions about hemalurgy (which, I admit, I've never understood the details of as much as I'd like).

1. So, if Wax's earring was acting as a hemalurgic spike allowing him to hear Harmony, does that mean that the earring was used to kill an allomancer like Vin's earring was? Is there a less bloody way to create a spike that gives that connection to Harmony that doesn't give other powers, maybe? Did Wax get another power while wearing his earring?

2. About Ironeyes. Okay, so I've heard the explanation about how Marsh could be almost immortal by compounding age with atium. But you have to have allomantic AND feruchemical powers to do that. Was Marsh given feruchemical powers by hemalurgy? Does that happen elsewhere in the original trilogy? I only remember hemalurgy granting allomantic powers.

Thanks for taking a look at these, guys! They kept me awake last night...

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Feruchemy was stolen as well with hemalurgy, just required different bind points, tlr kept it quite controlled it appears with the inquisitors but when he died and ruin gained control they slaughtered the majority of the remaining feruchemists for their abilities, so a large number of spikes with feruchemical ability were created. marsh had over 20 spikes I think in the end as ruin was building him up into some kind of champion of avatar it seems so it is totally possible on of those was a spike giving him the use of atium feruchemically

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CrazyRioter, I have not heard that, but it's brilliant. Did Brandon mention this, and if so, when/where? A quote would be greatly appreciated.

If you look in the HoA Ars Arcanum, you'll see that certain metals grant Feruchemical powers in Hemalurgy the ones listed there are Pewter (for Physical powers) and Brass (for Mental powers). There's at least one more for Spiritual ones, which can be assumed to be a part of the Enhancement quadrant (using Allomantic terminology). My guess is Nicrosil, but we won't really know the specifics until Brandon tells us.

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CrazyRioter, I have not heard that, but it's brilliant. Did Brandon mention this, and if so, when/where? A quote would be greatly appreciated.

If you look in the HoA Ars Arcanum, you'll see that certain metals grant Feruchemical powers in Hemalurgy the ones listed there are Pewter (for Physical powers) and Brass (for Mental powers). There's at least one more for Spiritual ones, which can be assumed to be a part of the Enhancement quadrant (using Allomantic terminology). My guess is Nicrosil, but we won't really know the specifics until Brandon tells us.

actually he wrote it in my book at the Vancouver signing.

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CrazyRioter, I have not heard that, but it's brilliant. Did Brandon mention this, and if so, when/where? A quote would be greatly appreciated.

If you look in the HoA Ars Arcanum, you'll see that certain metals grant Feruchemical powers in Hemalurgy the ones listed there are Pewter (for Physical powers) and Brass (for Mental powers). There's at least one more for Spiritual ones, which can be assumed to be a part of the Enhancement quadrant (using Allomantic terminology). My guess is Nicrosil, but we won't really know the specifics until Brandon tells us.

That. Is. Awesome.

CrazyRioter posted that a little while ago, but there's kind of been a lot posts in the Mistborn boards for the past few weeks ;)

And Firiel, if you look closely, in the first battle in The Hero of Ages, an Inquisitor taps speed. An Inquisitor's Feruchemical spikes also gave them the ability to store and tap health, which gives them their healing abilities.

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to answer your first question, Sazed had old Inquisitor spikes melted down to make the earrings, and we don't know what it's made of, so we don't know what power it's giving him, whatever it was, it will be weak as the hemalurgic charge is very weak.

Wow. Good to know.

Hurm. I guess that means that if a Mistborn showed up in the time of Alloy Of Law, they could theoretically use Soothing with Duralumin to take control of any Pathist while the Pathist was praying, though in practice, Harmony would swat the attempt aside even more easily than Ruin used to. Still, food for thought...

-- Deus Ex Biotica

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Well, the Hemalurgic charge at this point would be incredibly weak. Having the spike out of a body causes the spikes to decay, but breaking the spike or melting them makes it decay even faster. Probably the only use for the spikes now is to give followers a connection to Harmony.

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Does a weaker charge mean less ability to be controlled via Emotional Allomancy, though? I know it weakens the powers, but I've not seen anywhere that it weakens the... weakness.

(Granted, I haven't seen much outside of the books and annotations, so if that is information we have, I'm glad to get it!)

I'm not aware of any confirmation for or against that. That's a very good question to ask, I think.

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I'm not aware of any confirmation for or against that. That's a very good question to ask, I think.

The internal monologue here kind of implies that a weaker Hemalurgical charge doesn't mean less control/influence. (click on the p. 372 link).

http://books.google.com/books?id=uTt-H5MAGT0C&lpg=PP1&dq=hero%20of%20ages&pg=PA372#v=snippet&q=spike&f=false

Edited by fyodor
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The internal monologue here kind of implies that a weaker Hemalurgical charge doesn't mean less control/influence. (click on the p. 372 link).

http://books.google.com/books?id=uTt-H5MAGT0C&lpg=PP1&dq=hero%20of%20ages&pg=PA372#v=snippet&q=spike&f=false

Nice, good catch. That does seem to be the implication.

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The internal monologue here kind of implies that a weaker Hemalurgical charge doesn't mean less control/influence. (click on the p. 372 link).

http://books.google.com/books?id=uTt-H5MAGT0C&lpg=PP1&dq=hero%20of%20ages&pg=PA372#v=snippet&q=spike&f=false

And I will now steal this to prove the possibility of Cat Inquisitors who don't look like porcupines. Thank you.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Wow. Good to know.

Hurm. I guess that means that if a Mistborn showed up in the time of Alloy Of Law, they could theoretically use Soothing with Duralumin to take control of any Pathist while the Pathist was praying, though in practice, Harmony would swat the attempt aside even more easily than Ruin used to. Still, food for thought...

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Even Ruin isn't able to take control of a person with one spike so a mortal doesn't stand a chance. Brandon mentioned in an annotation that TenSoon wanted Vin to take control of him and if he had wanted to, he could have shut her out. Vin would have broken him eventually but it would have taken time. Remember that at the time TenSoon had four spikes, not the usual two for Kandra.

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2. About Ironeyes. Okay, so I've heard the explanation about how Marsh could be almost immortal by compounding age with atium. But you have to have allomantic AND feruchemical powers to do that. Was Marsh given feruchemical powers by hemalurgy? Does that happen elsewhere in the original trilogy? I only remember hemalurgy granting allomantic powers.

As far as I can tell, although possible, there would have been absolutely no reason for Ruin* to give Marsh a spike for Atium Feruchemy, especially since he was planning on destroying the world. On the other hand, Brandon said that Marsh can Compound Atium, and therefore he can.

Another thing to remember is that if Sazed can give Spook full Mistborn status, he can probably give Marsh full Feruchemist status, if he so chose.

*theoretically, TLR could have had the spike placed, but he wouldn't have wanted any other pseudo-immortals competing with him, so he almost certainly wouldn't have give Marsh the spike either.

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The internal monologue here kind of implies that a weaker Hemalurgical charge doesn't mean less control/influence. (click on the p. 372 link).

Thanks for the info!

Even Ruin isn't able to take control of a person with one spike so a mortal doesn't stand a chance. Brandon mentioned in an annotation that TenSoon wanted Vin to take control of him and if he had wanted to, he could have shut her out. Vin would have broken him eventually but it would have taken time. Remember that at the time TenSoon had four spikes, not the usual two for Kandra.

Actually, I had always wondered about this. I think I should start a separate thread about the difficulty for anyone - even Ruin! - controlling Kandra, given that when a Koloss has four spikes, controlling them is relatively trivial. (It's hard to guess what controlling an Inquisitor would be like, since they can burn Copper to protect themselves.)

Another thing to remember is that if Sazed can give Spook full Mistborn status, he can probably give Marsh full Feruchemist status, if he so chose.

You know, it's an interesting point that Sazed, with the full powers of Preservation and Ruin, can fuel Allomancy and Hemalurgy (and possibly Feruchemy) as much as he wants, without expending those mysterious "resources Gods do not wish to spend". I wonder if he even needs the Mist to be touching you in order to tweak your superpowers...

-- Deus Ex Biotica

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Maybe he was planning on using marsh after the destruction of the world!! Dunno there are a number of possibilities why and how he got it, but he does.

To be honest, it may just be an author oversight, though once again it's plausible that Ruin, like Preservation, wanted a backup plan.

Keep in mind also that the mass-murder of the Feruchemists happens in book 2, before Ruin is released from the Well. Until Vin freed him he didn't necessarily know that he'd have a chance to destroy the world in the short term. If Vin used the power herself or got killed before going to the Well, it might have been useful to have a superpowerful immortal agent who could work on his behalf.

Edited by fyodor
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As far as I can tell, although possible, there would have been absolutely no reason for Ruin* to give Marsh a spike for Atium Feruchemy, especially since he was planning on destroying the world.

Keep in mind that the mass-spiking happened in book 2, before Vin had released Ruin. It's entirely plausible that Vin might have used the Well power or died before going there, in which case Ruin might have wanted someone who could assist him in the long term.

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Keep in mind that the mass-spiking happened in book 2, before Vin had released Ruin. It's entirely plausible that Vin might have used the Well power or died before going there, in which case Ruin might have wanted someone who could assist him in the long term.

I think it is implied that the capturing (and not killing) was done during book 2 but the spiking was done after Ruin was released (the Prologue of Hero of Ages.)

Actually, I had always wondered about this. I think I should start a separate thread about the difficulty for anyone - even Ruin! - controlling Kandra, given that when a Koloss has four spikes, controlling them is relatively trivial. (It's hard to guess what controlling an Inquisitor would be like, since they can burn Copper to protect themselves.)

I think that intelligence (or consciousness) has a lot to do with control. A Koloss is a very basic creature, though not necessarily stupid. They don't really want to resist Ruin, as Ruin wants them to do what the Koloss do naturally, for the most part.

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As far as I can tell, although possible, there would have been absolutely no reason for Ruin* to give Marsh a spike for Atium Feruchemy, especially since he was planning on destroying the world. On the other hand, Brandon said that Marsh can Compound Atium, and therefore he can.

Another thing to remember is that if Sazed can give Spook full Mistborn status, he can probably give Marsh full Feruchemist status, if he so chose.

*theoretically, TLR could have had the spike placed, but he wouldn't have wanted any other pseudo-immortals competing with him, so he almost certainly wouldn't have give Marsh the spike either.

In book two the inquisitors were giving themselves feruchemy spikes. They didn't need the approval of Ruin or TLR. They didn't really have a leader at the time (TLR was dead, and Ruin's touch was weak), and therefore were just having fun powering themselves up, so to speak.

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So a couple of (unrelated) hemalurgy questions. Mostly for speculation, as I am impatiently waiting for the RPG to come out. (And just saw the announcement that it's been pushed back again. :( )

1. Could a spike recipient use the metalminds of feruchemists killed to create his/her spikes, assuming s/he has the appropriate feruchemical ability? It seems possible, given the description of how hemalurgy works (stealing a part of the victim's soul and tacking it on to the recipient's) and given what I've seen on the concept of Spiritual DNA.

2. If the victim of the creation of a hemalurgic spike that grants a Metallic power survives, does their capability with that power decrease? Given the description of Hemalurgy as net-negative, I would assume so, but we've never seen anyone survive being used to create a spike.

EDIT: I apologize ahead of time for any trouble with parsing those questions.

Edited by Eric
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