allomancy and god metals

[Wits instant noodles he/him]

Did Preservation create Allomancy after an already existing magic, using god metals, or does Allomancy just happen to be really freaking close to how god metals work. I noticed while reading that the Idea of god metals and Allomancy are essentially the same thing (burn the metal get the ability) but did preservation know about this when he created alomancy? its possible that Preservation and ruin created it to mimic god metals or is this a coincidence?

[offer]

50 minutes ago, Wits instant noodles said:

Did Preservation create Allomancy after an already existing magic, using god metals, or does Allomancy just happen to be really freaking close to how god metals work. I noticed while reading that the Idea of god metals and Allomancy are essentially the same thing (burn the metal get the ability) but did preservation know about this when he created alomancy? its possible that Preservation and ruin created it to mimic god metals or is this a coincidence?

Burning god meatls is using them in Allomancy. They can be used also in other magic systems such as ferchemy and hemulargy, also in SA we see that godmetal have "magical" properties unrelated to allomancy.

 

The similarity you noticed is just because using godmetals in allomacy is the most common use in mistborn.

[Quantus he/him]

Investiture has always (as in pre-Shattering) leaned toward becoming a Metal when it takes a solid form, this is just a themitic choice for the whole Cosmere.  Allomancy, and all the magic systems, are not designed or built by the Shards.  Instead they arise from the interactions of the Shard, the Planet, and it's population.  The shard can influence them to some extent but they are facts of reality that the shard has to do business with, just like physics.  

God Metals (the few we've seen) do not all operate in an allomantic equivalent way, though a more recent reton to the Cosmere states that anyone (or at least any Scadrian) should be able to Burn both era1 Scadrian metals despite Atium requiring a Misting in era1.  Era1 Atium is now an Atium/Electrum alloy, and so the apparent effect of real Atium is to invert the effects of what it's alloyed with, making an interal Power operate Externally.  Ettmetal cant be burned thanks to some has some unique properties. Raysium shunts Investiture from one end to another of a given sample.  Purified Dor seems to be able to supplement the investiture for Allomancy but has no specific/unique effects beyond an investiture source (within the Matallic arts).  Trellium repels investiture.  

I dont have any support for this but I suspect the OG godmetal from the Pre-Shattering times was a literal DragonSteel, some special Investiture metal created by that immortal supernatural race of shapeshifters.  

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I believe so, if he created the magic system.
 

On 2/7/2023 at 10:01 AM, offer said:

Burning god meatls is using them in Allomancy

If this is true, then everyone is an allomancer for at least 16 metals, mistings for at least 33, and mistborn for at least 272 metals. I think it's more likely that shardmetals are their own thing. Alloys are probably allomantic and shardmetal magic interactions, rather than 1 or the other. We never see a fuerochemist with a shardmetal on-screen or any tales of such (only SS, who only have ferrings if any fuerochemistry) so we don't know how those interact with Fuerochemistry. Hemalurgy certainly has a hemalurgic effect, but is it a property of the increased spiritual pressence of such invested material or because of hemalurgy? Again, alloys are probably an interaction between shardmetal magic and metalic arts.

On 2/7/2023 at 10:08 AM, Quantus said:

Investiture has always (as in pre-Shattering) leaned toward becoming a Metal when it takes a solid form

Usually a metal, but AFAIK there is no instance of non-crystal solid investiture. I think it's safe to say always a crystal until we learn otherwise.

On 2/7/2023 at 10:08 AM, Quantus said:

do not all operate in an allomantic equivalent way

Why Do You Mention/How Do You Know? We have only seen Lerasium burnt, and we only saw the "side effect" of mistborning. No other pure shardmetal has been burnt AFAIK.

On 2/7/2023 at 10:08 AM, Quantus said:

apparent effect of real Atium

That's the effect atium has on it's base metal alloys (though they all have spiritual effects), like how lerasium base alloys make mistings (still a side effect AFAIK). Some think that pure atium lets one see into the SR, due to a word of not-Brandon that I interpret diffrently than most people who read it. (The question is sqewed towards burning, but the answer could have otherwise reffered to the effect of H-Pure Atium.) Thinking back, if we assume shard metals are a diffrent magic system, I could see their arguments working better than if we take it as allomancy.

On 2/7/2023 at 10:08 AM, Quantus said:

Ettmetal can't be burned thanks to some has some unique properties

Are you referring to it's chemical properties? If not, source? There are ways of getting around the former I can think of, though their allomantic effectiveness isn't garentied, unlike hemalurgic efficiency, so who knows.

On 2/7/2023 at 10:08 AM, Quantus said:

Raysium shunts Investiture from one end to another of a given sample.  ... 

Spoiler

Trellium repels investiture.

WDYM? It's not related to the Metalic Arts. Ettmetal also stores/replicates kinetic(+?) investiture. Also, TLM spoilers must be in spoiler tags.

On 2/7/2023 at 10:08 AM, Quantus said:

 

Spoiler

Purified Dor

Spoiler

is pure investiture. Pure investiture can power any invested art, with no (known) side effects. In allomancy, the result is in the spiritweb (so not changeable baring SR shenanigans)

 

[Quantus he/him]

31 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I believe so, if he created the magic system.
 

If this is true, then everyone is an allomancer for at least 16 metals, mistings for at least 33, and mistborn for at least 272 metals. I think it's more likely that shardmetals are their own thing. Alloys are probably allomantic and shardmetal magic interactions, rather than 1 or the other. We never see a fuerochemist with a shardmetal on-screen or any tales of such (only SS, who only have ferrings if any fuerochemistry) so we don't know how those interact with Fuerochemistry. Hemalurgy certainly has a hemalurgic effect, but is it a property of the increased spiritual pressence of such invested material or because of hemalurgy? Again, alloys are probably an interaction between shardmetal magic and metalic arts.

Usually a metal, but AFAIK there is no instance of non-crystal solid investiture. I think it's safe to say always a crystal until we learn otherwise.

Why Do You Mention/How Do You Know? We have only seen Lerasium burnt, and we only saw the "side effect" of mistborning. No other pure shardmetal has been burnt AFAIK.

That's the effect atium has on it's base metal alloys (though they all have spiritual effects), like how lerasium base alloys make mistings (still a side effect AFAIK). Some think that pure atium lets one see into the SR, due to a word of not-Brandon that I interpret diffrently than most people who read it. (The question is sqewed towards burning, but the answer could have otherwise reffered to the effect of H-Pure Atium.) Thinking back, if we assume shard metals are a diffrent magic system, I could see their arguments working better than if we take it as allomancy.

Are you referring to it's chemical properties? If not, source? There are ways of getting around the former I can think of, though their allomantic effectiveness isn't garentied, unlike hemalurgic efficiency, so who knows.

WDYM? It's not related to the Metalic Arts. Ettmetal also stores/replicates kinetic(+?) investiture. Also, TLM spoilers must be in spoiler tags.

  Hide contents

is pure investiture. Pure investiture can power any invested art, with no (known) side effects. In allomancy, the result is in the spiritweb (so not changeable baring SR shenanigans)

 

I believe you missed the point I was trying to make (though honestly offer said it more concisely anyway).  The OP is based on a flawed assumption that "Idea of god metals and Allomancy are essentially the same thing (burn the metal get the ability)", but there is no indication that Burning metals, godmetal or otherwise, exists or has existed outside of Allomancy, any more than storing Attributes or Spiritweb chunks in Godmetal were possible before Scadrial was created and the Metallic Arts arose in the Cosmere.

Anyone can Burn Lerasium to Connect themselves to Perservation and become an Allomancer (Mistborn or Misting if alloyed).  Post-retcon any Allomancer can burn pure Atium because they're Connected enough to Burn metal and Atium can power it itself, but not just anyone in the Cosmere can burn Atium or any other godmetal besides Preservation.  A Rosharan swallowing a chunk of godmetal sharplate will just get a stomach ache, for example.

And we have WOB that the Shards can influence but dont get to just Design their magic systems, it will arise from the confluence of factors.  I like to think that does not preclude Leras and Ati from pointing it all in a specific direction, though. It would not surprise me to learn that Dragons & Dragonsteel historically had unique skills & properties that resemble what the three branches of the Metallic Arts can do now.  "Burning" things and "Hording" things are traditional traits, and some old (RL) legends get awfully Hemalurgic with their transfers of Power, so I could see Cosmere Dragons getting some similar things.  

 

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

18 hours ago, Quantus said:

Allomancer can burn pure Atium

Why only allomancer? IO've seen several saying anyone can burn P-Atium.

Do note I did say if they created their magic systems. I tend to lean more towards more intervention/pointing than less, but definitely not all.

[Quantus he/him]

4 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Why only allomancer? IO've seen several saying anyone can burn P-Atium.

Do note I did say if they created their magic systems. I tend to lean more towards more intervention/pointing than less, but definitely not all.

Because that's what they (Brandon, Peter, and others) said in the reton WOBs: that he didnt think it made sense for pure Atium to require a Special Misting or full Mistborn, so he said he'd change it in adaptations to be something any Allomancer would be able to do, and that the natural Aitum in era1 is actuall an Alloy (to sidestep the issue).  But it was never Any person in the cosmere, not even Any Scadrian, it was specifically Allomancers.  

People are just misunderstanding and/or misquoting the actual WOBs.

[offer]

23 hours ago, Quantus said:

Because that's what they (Brandon, Peter, and others) said in the reton WOBs: that he didnt think it made sense for pure Atium to require a Special Misting or full Mistborn, so he said he'd change it in adaptations to be something any Allomancer would be able to do, and that the natural Aitum in era1 is actuall an Alloy (to sidestep the issue).  But it was never Any person in the cosmere, not even Any Scadrian, it was specifically Allomancers.  

People are just misunderstanding and/or misquoting the actual WOBs.

No. Brandon did plan to make only allomancers be able to burn Atium In the movie adaptation but in the books canon he says that everyone should be able to burn godmetals.

The latest WoB summarizing this is:

Quote

LewsTherinTelescope

At the end of The Lost Metal, we learn that Marsh will be using atium from the ettmetal experiments to stay alive going forward. However, Peter recently revealed (and you confirmed) that the atium in Era 1 which stored youth was actually a mix of atium and electrum. How will this continue to work to keep him young?

Brandon Sanderson

They're going to have a different term for pure atium and for what has been known as atium--what they're making. It is not hard to get the right mix down for what he needs to stay alive. It is hard to make enough of it to keep him alive. Well, not hard, but definitely not scalable to more than one person, how about that. They are able to do it, you've just got to make an alloy.

I will apologize for this. This is a post-Era-1 retcon where I realized I need all the God Metals to do different things, and this is just one of the aspects that comes down. For those who don't know what's going on: I get done with Era 1, I start really working on the nature of metals in the cosmere. I'm like, "Ehhh... Atium really should be burnable by anybody. It's a God Metal. The way God Metals work is not in line with how I've made atium. So what they call atium has to have trace elements of something else, and then there's a pure form of atium out there that would be the true pure God Metal." That is one of those unfortunate retcons when you're doing all this continuity. And it works just fine in the books, because the way that atium is being made is a pretty complicated little process there in the Pits of Hathsin.

The question is the right question. Sazed is going to get out of this pure atium, which he is going to need to tweak before he gives it to Marsh. Whether Marsh knows he is getting a tweaked version or not is subject to your own interpretation.

For arcanist purposes, if you want to call the other one pure atium and the regular one just atium, I'd recommend something like that for your wikis and things like that.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)