Ruin + Preservation = Eventual Declination into Complete Ruin.

[Heretic333]

I work with statistics a lot. Everything from business production, sales, stocks.. you name it.

I see this get confused A TON in the fandom... but hear me out.

Preservation and Ruin is NOT Harmony. Its not a horizontal line on a graph. Its a steadily declining one. 

If these were forces at work grinding against each other.. you will eventually end up with Ruin. 

A negative force against a neutral force = Negative outcome. 

A positive times a negative = a negative. 

After we see Discord in Era 3.. there will be perhaps further dissention into Ruin.

Regression, Perdition, Dissolution, Atrophy, Whatever.. All roads lead to Ruin on this.

Discord should be fun for a while. But Discord creates problems. And if problems arent solved.. what happens? I hope the reader gets my point. lol

 

[Heretic333]

I suppose a better Harmony type shard matchup would be Cultivation and Ruin. Or some type of Lifey growth shard. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

57 minutes ago, Heretic333 said:

Preservation and Ruin is NOT Harmony. Its not a horizontal line on a graph. Its a steadily declining one. 

I think it’s worth noting that there is an imbalance between the shards that leads to the increase of ruins power. From the beginning, preservation had to give up more power in creation to make people sapient, which is why he made his plan to trap ruin and go back on their deal. As the atium that was burned at the end of era 1 goes through the spiritual humidity process and transfers into Harmony’s control and possession, the balance shifts further and further towards ruin, making it more and more difficult for him to maintain a harmonious balance of the two opposing shards.

[alder24]

Harmony is two shards for now, and no matter what they are, one shard can't destroy the other while being held by one vessel. Harmony can be splintered back to Ruin and Preservation, but Ruin can't destroy Preservation while held by Harmony/Discord together. Harmony is becoming Discord not because Preservation is decaying away, but because there was always slightly more Ruin than Preservation. It will never end up with pure Ruin, as long as those two are together, there will always be Preservation.

Cultivation is about growth/change, not necessarily good, it can be bad as well. Cultivation is better opposition to Preservation than Ruin in my opinion. Both Cultivation and Ruin are about change, and would be better match together than with Preservation.

Ruin again is not necessarily pure negative thing - sometimes you need to destroy old house to build new and better one. So with right combination, Ruin can be positive. 

[Frustration he/him]

5 hours ago, Heretic333 said:

Preservation and Ruin is NOT Harmony. Its not a horizontal line on a graph. Its a steadily declining one. 

Ruin is subservient to Preservation at the moment.

[Heretic333]

19 hours ago, alder24 said:

Harmony is two shards for now, and no matter what they are, one shard can't destroy the other while being held by one vessel. Harmony can be splintered back to Ruin and Preservation, but Ruin can't destroy Preservation while held by Harmony/Discord together. Harmony is becoming Discord not because Preservation is decaying away, but because there was always slightly more Ruin than Preservation. It will never end up with pure Ruin, as long as those two are together, there will always be Preservation.

Forgive me, but this proves my point. Why go from Harmony to Discord? 

You said slightly more Ruin than Preservation?  What does this mean? When does this end?

When does the counteracting force of the shard of Preservation hold the line? 

Why didn't it hold it at Harmony?

Therefore why should it stop unbalancing? 

Because it wont be held at Discord. Its going to steadily decrease until Sazed gives both shards to someone else to start the cycle over again. (my theory at least)

[alder24]

26 minutes ago, Heretic333 said:

Forgive me, but this proves my point. Why go from Harmony to Discord? 

You said slightly more Ruin than Preservation?  What does this mean? When does this end?

When does the counteracting force of the shard of Preservation hold the line? 

Why didn't it hold it at Harmony?

Therefore why should it stop unbalancing? 

Because it wont be held at Discord. Its going to steadily decrease until Sazed gives both shards to someone else to start the cycle over again. (my theory at least)

Discord is already unbalanced form for these Shards. Where else can it go from being unbalanced? Preservation is not getting weaker, it's constantly the same, Ruin is also the same. They are not gaining or losing power at this moment. Ruin is stronger just because Preservation gave more of himself to humanity during Scadrial creation. 

With two shards combined they can only be in harmony or with one of them dominating the other. 

But now Harmony is not in harmony, Sazed works more on preserving people without providing equal amount of ruining. 

Unless Sazed gave up one of his shards, I doubt it will end up in total Ruin.

[Heretic333]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Discord is already unbalanced form for these Shards. Where else can it go from being unbalanced? Preservation is not getting weaker, it's constantly the same, Ruin is also the same. They are not gaining or losing power at this moment. Ruin is stronger just because Preservation gave more of himself to humanity during Scadrial creation. 

With two shards combined they can only be in harmony or with one of them dominating the other. 

But now Harmony is not in harmony, Sazed works more on preserving people without providing equal amount of ruining. 

Unless Sazed gave up one of his shards, I doubt it will end up in total Ruin.

What happens when something is unbalanced in life? and it receives no further counteracting force?

The unbalance continues. and continues. Thats why I think Sazed will give up both shards to perhaps restart the process somehow. 

Many shards can easily splinter the other, if they are held by the same vessel.. what law of the Cosmere have you observed which protects one shard over another at large, let alone in the same vessel?

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Heretic333 said:

What happens when something is unbalanced in life? and it receives no further counteracting force?

The unbalance continues. and continues. Thats why I think Sazed will give up both shards to perhaps restart the process somehow. 

Many shards can easily splinter the other, if they are held by the same vessel.. what law of the Cosmere have you observed which protects one shard over another at large, let alone in the same vessel?

Or it finds new stable state. Two stars with different masses orbit each other in not spherical ans imperfect orbits, but they are stable an will remain in that shape untill stars change, die or get pulled by outside force.

 

There is a deal the Vessels made that force them not to settle in the same system. Most splinter Shards violated that deal and that exploded them - like Dominion and Devotion. Ruin and Preservation agreed to settle and create together and therefore they did not violated that deal. 

Easily is not the right word. Shards are equal. Ambition and Honor might be splinteres with involvement of multiple shards.

[Heretic333]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Or it finds new stable state. Two stars with different masses orbit each other in not spherical ans imperfect orbits, but they are stable an will remain in that shape untill stars change, die or get pulled by outside force.

 

There is a deal the Vessels made that force them not to settle in the same system. Most splinter Shards violated that deal and that exploded them - like Dominion and Devotion. Ruin and Preservation agreed to settle and create together and therefore they did not violated that deal. 

Easily is not the right word. Shards are equal. Ambition and Honor might be splinteres with involvement of multiple shards.

I didn't read anywhere where any shards agreed to settle the same system. Perhaps the vessel of Ruin wished to have a counteracting shard to keep him in check, and perhaps the vessel of Preservation agreed.. but none of the above is written and is therefore speculation..

The reality is that shards override one another.. but there is no shard that stands above the rest. 

The same obvious law should apply to vessels holding multiple shards... hence Discord becoming worse...eventually.. and the need to impede or restart the balance. 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Heretic333

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Heretic333 said:

I didn't read anywhere where any shards agreed to settle the same system. Perhaps the vessel of Ruin wished to have a counteracting shard to keep him in check, and perhaps the vessel of Preservation agreed.. but none of the above is written and is therefore speculation..

The reality is that shards override one another.. but there is no shard that stands above the rest. 

The same obvious law should apply to vessels holding multiple shards... hence Discord becoming worse...eventually.. and the need to impede or restart the balance. 

 

 

Quote

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508/#e15869

 

 

 

Shards don't override one another, they are equal to each other. Power of the Shards don't disappear or get destroyed, power can't be destroy.

Also the balance is not needed. Discord might seam worst for us, readers, but for a shard it will be more stable than Harmony. No need for change as Discord already assumes that there is no balance. Sazed can be only balance or no balance. Unless he splinters himself. Sazed is perfect for holding both shards as he his ruinous and preserving 

[Heretic333]

55 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

 

Shards don't override one another, they are equal to each other. Power of the Shards don't disappear or get destroyed, power can't be destroy.

Also the balance is not needed. Discord might seam worst for us, readers, but for a shard it will be more stable than Harmony. No need for change as Discord already assumes that there is no balance. Sazed can be only balance or no balance. Unless he splinters himself. Sazed is perfect for holding both shards as he his ruinous and preserving 

I understand your viewpoint.

Unfortunately in the Cosmere, shards overcome each other and there is no evidence to suggest shards are automatically equal while in a vessel. 

What you are saying cannot dispute my original post. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Heretic333 said:

I understand your viewpoint.

Unfortunately in the Cosmere, shards overcome each other and there is no evidence to suggest shards are automatically equal while in a vessel. 

What you are saying cannot dispute my original post. 

 

Spoiler

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Chaos (paraphrased)

Will Sazed eventually go mad trying to hold two Shard's power at the same time (being pushed to two different Purposes simultaneously for millennia)? Why hasn't anyone else tried this trick before in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Since they're so opposite they work together to create a whole. However, after a LONG time it would change him as a person.

Footnote: The two Shards do influence Sazed, and did by Era 2.
Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

You suggest that Preservation's power will be decreasing/destroyed under Ruin's pressure. How can a shard's infinite power be destroyed? For decreasing Preservation's power, Harmony would have to purposefully gave up chunk of that power and invest something significantly. Otherwise the power won't go anywhere. It also takes deliberate will and action to splinter a shard. Ruin doesn't have a will of its own. It's controled by Sazed.

However both Ruin and Preservation are now one new shard - Harmony. But the Vessel controlling Harmony doesn't act harmoniously, Sazed favors preserving people - he is acting against intent of the shard. More over there is more Ruin than Preservation. Harmony can be change to Discord - then it doesn't matter what action would Sazed favor, it is within Discord intent, and it doesn't matter that there is more Ruin or Preservation. 

Ruin and Preservation are not clashing with each other - it's a fight between vessel Sazed and intent Harmony.

 

 

Spoiler

Autarchk

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

Brandon Sanderson

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Nepene

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him- Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

Brandon Sanderson

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

General Reddit 2013 (March 14, 2013)

Also no shard is technically evil. Is Ruin negative? Depending how you view it - Ruin is all about increasing entropy - so it can be called positive force as it actions always leads to increase of entropy.

Edited December 22, 2022 by alder24