Anniversary Game 9/Anonymous Game 13: Rebuilding Tyrian Falls

[Coral Swan]

Just now, Plum Rhinoceros said:

why not ask me this in pms then when i confronted you  at this point i just think you want to buy yourself another cycle

part of the problem in my mind is that you "correctly" predicted the NK at all. i do believe there were much better candidates for the spiked-to-kill at that point. feels too convenient

not to mention the fact i asked you to prove the role you claimed to me (rioter) last cycle and you made a last-minute excuse instead

My brother in the Ja: you sent me like two PMs, basically. >> I am not obligated to explain every claim I do and do not make. I have claimed Tineye to people. I have claimed Rioter to people (@Azure Mouse should be able to substantiate). Recently I have been claiming Coinshot to people. I was playing as a role chameleon to organise the trust group you are now shutting me out of, and for doing what I was supposed to with the info Meerkat gave me, you are now deciding to unceremoniously throw me under the bus

Do you really think the Elims can afford to be wasting kills on WGG antics? -.- You know perfectly well that I was playing the public face of the group, and firing off claims in distrust PMs. You were okay with this, until about five seconds ago. If you thought that wouldn't get me attacked, I don't know what you think would.

yeah cause I'm not a rioter  

[Plum Rhinoceros]

Just now, Coral Swan said:

My brother in the Ja: you sent me like two PMs, basically. >> I am not obligated to explain every claim I do and do not make. I have claimed Tineye to people. I have claimed Rioter to people (@Azure Mouse should be able to substantiate). Recently I have been claiming Coinshot to people. I was playing as a role chameleon to organise the trust group you are now shutting me out of, and for doing what I was supposed to with the info Meerkat gave me, you are now deciding to unceremoniously throw me under the bus

Do you really think the Elims can afford to be wasting kills on WGG antics? -.- You know perfectly well that I was playing the public face of the group, and firing off claims in distrust PMs. You were okay with this, until about five seconds ago. If you thought that wouldn't get me attacked, I don't know what you think would.

yeah cause I'm not a rioter  

i do think that after croc got red checked, "wasting kills on WGG antics" is a valid strat to avoid us scanning you anytime soon. especially if you're the e!mistborn and are in the process of losing e!lurcher!flamingo too. your player risk appetite is also higher than most, so i wouldn't put it past you in the slightest

the hang up to me is why you told us you're going to give the v!lurcher the shortlist we prepared and then just tell them to protect you. whether or not it ended up being the correct guess, v!you should have filled us in. not ask the v!lurcher to keep it a secret from others.

it's shady mate. you realize it's shady, yeah?

then what are you, cause the thing about playing "role chameleon" is that none of us can trust your role claim until it's validated. and it's clearly not, so...

[Indigo Weasel]

*pulls out popcorn* well I guess there was one scenario I didn't take into account for a WGG

And that's using the village lurcher to accomplish your protection. But dang that's BALLSY. 

[Plum Rhinoceros]

Just now, Indigo Weasel said:

*pulls out popcorn* well I guess there was one scenario I didn't take into account for a WGG

And that's using the village lurcher to accomplish your protection. But dang that's BALLSY. 

i think the plan was to kill the village lurcher tonight. only the previously scanned players knew who the seeker was scanning next, so Swan probably didn't expect us to find out from the lurcher their double-cross. that knowledge would have died with them otherwise

[Indigo Weasel]

See? This is exactly why I'm so gosh darned paranoid, because players pull stuff like this. I just can't be paranoid enough 

[Coral Swan]

2 minutes ago, Plum Rhinoceros said:

i do think that after croc got red checked, "wasting kills on WGG antics" is a valid strat to avoid us scanning you anytime soon. especially if you're the e!mistborn and are in the process of losing e!lurcher!flamingo too. your player risk appetite is also higher than most, so i wouldn't put it past you in the slightest

the hang up to me is why you told us you're going to give the v!lurcher the shortlist we prepared and then just tell them to protect you. whether or not it ended up being the correct guess, v!you should have filled us in. not ask the v!lurcher to keep it a secret from others.

it's shady mate. you realize it's shady, yeah?

then what are you, cause the thing about playing "role chameleon" is that none of us can trust your role claim until it's validated. and it's clearly not, so...

okay I'm about to go to class and do not have time to address most of the ridiculousness in here but I will say that I don't think your Lurcher trusts you as much as you think they do, or they were lying to me as well. I wasn't protected; the scan I actually know about was. I'm a Thug. There's my roleclaim.  

I might make a post later tonight detailing how much of this I think you are making up but if you are village I would like you to reread the PMs in question and see if they say what you think they are saying

see you in 3 hours

good day

[Plum Rhinoceros]

3 minutes ago, Indigo Weasel said:

See? This is exactly why I'm so gosh darned paranoid, because players pull stuff like this. I just can't be paranoid enough 

i usually handle things opposite; innocent until proven guilty, don't want to overly paranoia on someone without good reasoning and shut them out of conversation, but also always maintain opsec just in case. i kinda draw the line at outright lying to players you know have been green checked tho

2 minutes ago, Coral Swan said:

okay I'm about to go to class and do not have time to address most of the ridiculousness in here but I will say that I don't think your Lurcher trusts you as much as you think they do, or they were lying to me as well. I wasn't protected; the scan I actually know about was. I'm a Thug. There's my roleclaim.  

I might make a post later tonight detailing how much of this I think you are making up but if you are village I would like you to reread the PMs in question and see if they say what you think they are saying

see you in 3 hours

good day

so you're saying you lost your thug life, and the lurcher didn't protect you?

yeah i think i'm going to trust the green check more  

Edited January 11, 2023 by Plum Rhinoceros

[Indigo Weasel]

1 minute ago, Plum Rhinoceros said:

i usually handle things opposite; innocent until proven guilty, don't want to overly paranoia on someone without good reasoning and shut them out of conversation, but also always maintain opsec just in case. i kinda draw the line at outright lying to players you know have been green checked tho

Yeah... Can't do that. Trust has stabbed me in the back too many times. I understand innocent before proven guilty, but I refuse to place absolute trust in anyone unless they earn it. And even then, I'm still careful. 

[Plum Rhinoceros]

i will say, maybe this falls apart in an e!Seeker world. but the seeker revealed to us e!Croc, which they could have probably gotten away with as a fake green check. might be a long term trust play on that part.

in that case, i think the e!Seeker and the "v!Lurcher" would need to be in cahoots to frame Swan, but even then that's just kayana because as soon as Swan flipped V we'd begin to investigate them

occam's razor just says this was a e!Swan desperation gambit after losing 2 teammates that ultimately failed. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Plum Rhinoceros

[Sunburst Toucan]

[OOC: For the sake of opsec, I not wish to disclose more than what Rhino has already revealed but suffice to say that I can confirm that Coral Swan has been dishonest enough that it has gone past the point of it apparently being beneficial to the village. They seem to be pulling out dubious justifications now, however it is odd that they could not provide such explanations to at the very least the confirmed village players before this. Hence, I can get behind a Coral Swan coinshot kill.]

[Charcoal Hyena]

My brain hurts >:(

Okay.......... So first of all. Kasimir left me with what as best I can figure is most or all that he knew, as well as a record of which other people were also in the loop for each piece of knowledge. So that the rest of the village isn't left in the dark, I'm going to share a few things:

1. For all that he's making a big deal of scans, Plum Rhinoceros is not actually scanned. Scanning is still a limited resource. He's in a pretty darn similar boat to Swan, where he was trusted based on factors other than a scan. I do trust Rhinoceros (mostly), and this doesn't particularly detract from the fact that Swan looks suspicious, but it's still a relevant piece of context for everyone to have.

2. From what I can see, it sure does look like Swan straight-up lied in one of the PMs I am in about the status of communications with the Lurcher. Which, obviously, isn't a great look at all.

3. Swan claimed a specific role to Meerkat. While there was little reason to doubt the claim at the time, that role claim hasn't been mechanically confirmed, and it wasn't the same as Swan's current claim of Thug. This makes the case against Swan look rather more damning, I think. Because while Swan can explain away making fake role claims to people they didn't trust, they've been somewhat vocal about having been on Meerkat's side, so it wouldn't make a lot of sense to lie to Meerkat.

In conclusion, Swan is probably spiked, but I'm willing to hear out an explanation if there's a good one. In particular, the Lurcher claim has yet to speak up, which could potentially shed quite a bit of light on the situation, one way or the other.

[Opal Lion]

What in the wide storming world is going on?

My basic interpretation, correct if wrong:

Lurcher claims to trust group, soft cleared Swan is chosen to give the list of potential protects to them, Swan does not know who any of the power roles are (this seems like a contradiction, but I'm guessing said list was padded with fakes in case it was compromised), Swan lies and claims coinshot, asking for protection, claimed lurcher protects Swan, Swan is attacked, lurcher is scanned, lurcher tells trust group about Swan’s claim (was this just casually mentioned? It seems like said lurcher would just assume you already knew), Rhino mentions it in thread (why?), and everybody gets very upset at Swan.

[Plum Rhinoceros]

17 minutes ago, Opal Lion said:

What in the wide storming world is going on?

My basic interpretation, correct if wrong:

Lurcher claims to trust group, soft cleared Swan is chosen to give the list of potential protects to them, Swan does not know who any of the power roles are (this seems like a contradiction, but I'm guessing said list was padded with fakes in case it was compromised), Swan lies and claims coinshot, asking for protection, claimed lurcher protects Swan, Swan is attacked, lurcher is scanned, lurcher tells trust group about Swan’s claim (was this just casually mentioned? It seems like said lurcher would just assume you already knew), Rhino mentions it in thread (why?), and everybody gets very upset at Swan.

The lurcher originally claimed to Meerkas and Swan, before Meerkas died N3 (they had protected Meerkas N2). The Lurcher has been kept at a distance for the most part because we did not verify them with a scan yet.

We had Swan give the Lurcher the list because he was one of the first players in communication with the Lurcher (mass PMs, which apparently were for the purpose of role fishing in retrospect).

The Lurcher got scanned. They didn't mention that Swan had told them they were the CS until later, when they found out the real identity of the CS (because they were scanned). This led us to start questioning things

I brought it to thread to keep players informed, in case Swan somehow survives tonight. The Lurcher definitely protected Swan, so if it's true that they are a Thug, it's likely they will survive the CS kill and they need to be voted out tomorrow. Also possible they have a 2nd Lurcher, based on Flamingo's repeated survival

Edited January 11, 2023 by Plum Rhinoceros

[Opal Lion]

Ah, thank you, this clears things up. I will fourthen? the suggestion to coinshot Swan.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Opal Lion

[Charcoal Hyena]

Unrelated, but I only just got the Meerkas pun :P.

[Coral Swan]

21 minutes ago, Opal Lion said:

What in the wide storming world is going on?

My basic interpretation, correct if wrong:

Lurcher claims to trust group, soft cleared Swan is chosen to give the list of potential protects to them, Swan does not know who any of the power roles are (this seems like a contradiction, but I'm guessing said list was padded with fakes in case it was compromised), Swan lies and claims coinshot, asking for protection, claimed lurcher protects Swan, Swan is attacked, lurcher is scanned, lurcher tells trust group about Swan’s claim (was this just casually mentioned? It seems like said lurcher would just assume you already knew), Rhino mentions it in thread (why?), and everybody gets very upset at Swan.

lol. Okay. I have time so let’s address this. 

First, Rhino is threatening me with roles that don’t exist. If there’s a Seeker I don’t know about in contact with Meerkat’s trust group, I’ll eat my hat. They’d have scanned me first. There is one v-scanned member around, but it’s someone Kas got with Bronze N1, and there’s been nothing in PMs since about a scanner. I know the roles of everyone in the trust group. Because I put it together. There’s a CS floating around somewhere in there who’s been passed off as something else, and they’re known to the scanned player. That’s fine. Not really curious who that is. We’ve been coordinating kills anyway. 

The problem came last night with the Lurcher (who, for the record, I suspected and somewhat still suspect). I was put in contact with them, and was given a list which I gave to the Lurcher. From what I can tell, they protected from this list. I was attacked, lost my extra life, and told the Lurcher to say that I had changed my mind and asked for protection, because at this point I was still playing Schrödinger’s Rioter/Coinshot/Tineye in the trust PM to bait fire, and I wanted to keep up the illusion to see if I’d get hit again and potentially expose someone in the PM as a spy.

From what I can gather from Rhino’s indignant comments, either the Lurcher changed their mind and protected me without telling me, which seems unlikely since I lost my extra life, or the CS claim which I did give to the Lurcher made them panic, tell the rest of the group, at which point Rhino fenced off the trust group from me after a few overtures which were ignored because I was busy and they were confusing, and then presumably started another PM to do this pointless inquisition. Along the way he makes up a bunch of stuff to try to scare a potential elim!me into a confession. It’s an effective tactic, but not a sustainable one.

If I need to get Coinshot to clear this up, so be it, but it’s a waste of a shot. You have mistaken my tendency to gambit for a desire to actually kill you guys. There’s no need for this elaborate WGG setup if I was evil. I’d just keep shooting up the group. Which, I would point out, is what the actual Elims seem perfectly content to do, and you have just helped them with it.

Hyena, Toucan, everyone else in the group: please look beyond the basic dishonesty and examine the actual evidence, and ask if this makes sense for an Elim to do. 

When I die tonight, please look into Rhino, Ele, Lion, DF, and possibly Mouse and Scorp. 

[Plum Rhinoceros]

12 minutes ago, Coral Swan said:

lol. Okay. I have time so let’s address this. 

First, Rhino is threatening me with roles that don’t exist. If there’s a Seeker I don’t know about in contact with Meerkat’s trust group, I’ll eat my hat. They’d have scanned me first. There is one v-scanned member around, but it’s someone Kas got with Bronze N1, and there’s been nothing in PMs since about a scanner. I know the roles of everyone in the trust group. Because I put it together. There’s a CS floating around somewhere in there who’s been passed off as something else, and they’re known to the scanned player. That’s fine. Not really curious who that is. We’ve been coordinating kills anyway. 

The problem came last night with the Lurcher (who, for the record, I suspected and somewhat still suspect). I was put in contact with them, and was given a list which I gave to the Lurcher. From what I can tell, they protected from this list. I was attacked, lost my extra life, and told the Lurcher to say that I had changed my mind and asked for protection, because at this point I was still playing Schrödinger’s Rioter/Coinshot/Tineye in the trust PM to bait fire, and I wanted to keep up the illusion to see if I’d get hit again and potentially expose someone in the PM as a spy.

From what I can gather from Rhino’s indignant comments, either the Lurcher changed their mind and protected me without telling me, which seems unlikely since I lost my extra life, or the CS claim which I did give to the Lurcher made them panic, tell the rest of the group, at which point Rhino fenced off the trust group from me after a few overtures which were ignored because I was busy and they were confusing, and then presumably started another PM to do this pointless inquisition. Along the way he makes up a bunch of stuff to try to scare a potential elim!me into a confession. It’s an effective tactic, but not a sustainable one.

If I need to get Coinshot to clear this up, so be it, but it’s a waste of a shot. You have mistaken my tendency to gambit for a desire to actually kill you guys. There’s no need for this elaborate WGG setup if I was evil. I’d just keep shooting up the group. Which, I would point out, is what the actual Elims seem perfectly content to do, and you have just helped them with it.

Hyena, Toucan, everyone else in the group: please look beyond the basic dishonesty and examine the actual evidence, and ask if this makes sense for an Elim to do. 

When I die tonight, please look into Rhino, Ele, Lion, DF, and possibly Mouse and Scorp. 

Uh. You remember the Croc scan, don't you? Of course we have a Seeker. Kas didn't actually have Bronze N1. That was a ploy they planned when the Seeker claimed to him. The only reason you haven't been scanned yet is because we trusted you, with other players (like Croc N3 and the Lurcher N4, since we thought they could be the e!Lurcher) taking priority.

I'm pretty confident you're lying about losing your extra life to shake our resolve. As far as I'm aware, the Coinshot's kill order is on you, and I don't believe it's going to change. I really don't believe you're a Thug anyway. E!Mistborn makes more sense.

If I am somehow wrong about you, I will look at the Seeker and the Lurcher next, or the others will if I'm dead.

[Sapphire Elephant]

Don't know why Swan's bring me into this, so sure, happy enough for Swan to be coinshot I guess? 

[Indigo Weasel]

In PMs, I've been extremely conservative with certain information. Rhino presented such information to me to confirm that it was true, and the information is as such that I am almost certain they are village. They may not be scanned, but if they are an elim I will eat my hat. It just makes no sense given their aggressive playstyle and extensive information for the village for the village to not be singehandedly crippled. Essentially, if either they or I had been elim, Swan would not have been shot by the elims. Just a quick explanation so that nobody gets confused about their alignment. 

[Amethyst Scorpion]

For the love of bejeezus some of us are trying to sleep here! Get a room already, you two! I don’t care what animalistic behavior you get up to in the privacy of your own room, but this is getting completely out of hand. I can’t believe the six year old has to tell you this.

[Pearl Chameleon]

I've been looking at other suspects than Swan, because well that is going to happen and is quite out of my hands.

And I've been looking at Dragonfly, because they've been flying low again. I do admit that it could be the same reasons as before for their lower activity, but still I looked at them and I found some interesting things.

Note: I did include all null in the elim category because I'm sticking to the two categories.

Dragonfly

Village reads

Spoiler

D2

Village Lean: Hyena, Falcon, Flamingo, Toucan, and Tuatara

Null+: Crocodile and Albatross

D4

Village Lean: Falcon, Ostrich, and Toucan

Null+: Elephant, Albatross, and Mouse.

D5

Village: Mouse

Village Lean: Falcon, Ostrich, and Toucan

Null+: Albatross, and Elephant

Elim reads

Spoiler

D2

Null: Mouse

Elim Lean: Weasel, Heron

D4

Null: Penguin, Lion

Confused: Hyena, Swan, Weasel

Null-: Scorpion, Flamingo, Chameleon

Elim Lean: Crocodile

Elim: Rhino
N4

Null: Penguin, Lion

Confused: Hyena, Swan, Weasel

Null-: Scorpion, Flamingo, Chameleon

Elim Lean: Rhino

Elim: None

Votes

Spoiler

D1

- Voted Albatross roughly 0200 hours after start of the day

- Last minute switched to Dingo

D2

- Voted Weasel roughly 0300 hours after start of the day

- Switched to Heron in the last hour

D3

- Didn't vote

D4

- Voted Crocodile roughly 0500 hours before rollover

D5

- Voted Flamingo about 0400 hours after start of the day

A few things stand out from this.

- In their everyone post one elim, village and null. They didn't really change their reads except Weasel with Heron. Who they said they had been reconsidering, Weasel not Heron. 

- They later switched to Heron. Possible that they had planned this before. And if your village why do you switch to Heron? Because Weasel and Heron were in their reads as evil. They seemed to become more focused on Heron before Heron became a run away train. They had posted the elim, village, null post before Heron became a runaway. And then they switched to Heron after it became a runaway train. And I do admit that it very well could be that they did indeed revise their read of Weasel and decided to switch to Heron and get them executed because they E read them.

- Generally didn't really promote or demote many people. Most stayed as they are, except Mouse who has been village read for pushing the Croc scan through to the thread.

It just seems fishy to me. And do what you will with this data. It's here to be used.

[Plum Rhinoceros]

3 minutes ago, Amethyst Scorpion said:

For the love of bejeezus some of us are trying to sleep here! Get a room already, you two! I don’t care what animalistic behavior you get up to in the privacy of your own room, but this is getting completely out of hand. I can’t believe the six year old has to tell you this.

sorry, ma'am

1 minute ago, Pearl Chameleon said:

I've been looking at other suspects than Swan, because well that is going to happen and is quite out of my hands.

And I've been looking at Dragonfly, because they've been flying low again. I do admit that it could be the same reasons as before for their lower activity, but still I looked at them and I found some interesting things.

Note: I did include all null in the elim category because I'm sticking to the two categories.

Dragonfly

...

It just seems fishy to me. And do what you will with this data. It's here to be used.

I do feel that the timing of Dragonfly's vote on Crocodile fits in with the idea that Croc got online and said "go ahead, bus me." IIRC, it was like 20 minutes after Croc posted his weak defense. I also feel the concern for discussion on D2 was fabricated, because they never followed up or attempted to really generate more discussion since they became one of our suspects.

Granted, I'd like to wait until Dragonfly is online again before we do anything about them, but they're definitely on my naughty list

[Indigo Weasel]

And I'm over here still wondering what happened to Chartreuse Penguin and their village read of me day 2 (which as I mentioned before I found very suspicious, like a low effort read). 
Ah, I really just want to have the night turn over. It's been so long since I've felt this excited! 

[Pearl Chameleon]

3 minutes ago, Plum Rhinoceros said:

Granted, I'd like to wait until Dragonfly is online again before we do anything about them, but they're definitely on my naughty list

That's kind of why I was going after them less doggedly on D4, that and the second Flamingo survival. And then they've disappeared off my radar, which made me look into them again. I'll probably look into another person whose disappeared since I have more villagery reads of the more active players to varrying degrees.

But I'm out of time for now. See you all during the next day and I too am quite excited. This game is starting to ramp up! Reminds me of what happens in the later turns of a favorite board game of mine which I won't mention to try and preserve my annonimity.

[Magenta Albatross]

[OOC: Ah. This is why I don’t like group PMs and trust groups. Always leads to a massive cremstorm when things come out in the thread eventually.

As someone completely uninvolved with all of that mess, I think I slightly believe Rhino more. But only just barely. If Swan is who I think they are, then this feels perfectly in character for them. Which means that I think this whole situation on Swan’s part is like…98% NAI. There’s obviously a little bit of AI stuff we might be able to glean, but the actual act of lying to everyone and obfuscating things isn’t suspicious coming from them. In my opinion.

I am also perfectly willing to believe that both Rhino and Swan are village and this is just a clusterstorm. We’ll see how things shake out in the next couple hours.]