stormlight The circumstances Lopen says the 4th ideal of the Windrunners

[Inspector Morgue]

In Dawnshard Lopen says the 3rd ideal, but it was paraphrased. So I wondered, if Lopen said the 3rd ideal in a situation that one of his cousins resent him for some of his pranks, perhaps the 4th ideal should be something about some people not laughing at his jokes regardless of what kind they are. 

[SovereignStormblessed]

I agree that that would be an interesting twist and a fun way to build on Lopen's character, but the fourth ideal is about accepting that there are some you cannot protect. I don't feel like there's a way to paraphrase that in the way you're thinking, but cool idea! Who knows? Maybe Sanderson will surprise us...

[SpinningSky he/him]

For the sake or argument, I think Lopen does "protect" people by keeping up their morale and helping them feel good, but he is a odd fellow which not everybody will like.

I can see him having to accept that his ways of cheering people up and keeping up morale won't work with everybody, and he will sometimes need to adapt his ways.
Actually that'd be a huge character step for him, harder than for Kaladin to accept he can't protect everybody

"well, you know, sometimes you just gotta shut up and sit with people" - Lopen - knight radiant of the 4th ideal

[Lockheart]

I just reread Dawnshard, and the and it reminded me the manner in which Lopen's Words are accepted bothers me, a lot. 

 

Whenever you see someone swear an ideal other than the first, it's a high stress situation where the power boost is needed. 

 

Twice, we see Lopen in a tight spot, say the words, and they not be accepted.... yet a short time later, talking about how they aren't accepted, they are, almost mocking him.

[SpinningSky he/him]

4 minutes ago, Lockheart said:

I just reread Dawnshard, and the and it reminded me the manner in which Lopen's Words are accepted bothers me, a lot. 

 

Whenever you see someone swear an ideal other than the first, it's a high stress situation where the power boost is needed. 

 

Twice, we see Lopen in a tight spot, say the words, and they not be accepted.... yet a short time later, talking about how they aren't accepted, they are, almost mocking him.

well it's about true understading it's a bit weird. If I remember correctly, in Edgedancer Lift gets to use Wyndle as a "blade" before she actually swears the oath

and Lopen does speak a lot whilst understanding.... some

[SovereignStormblessed]

I'd love to just take a moment to admire Lopen in general and how amazing a character he is 

[Tglassy]

It doesn't HAVE to be in a moment of stress.  It's a moment of acceptance.  Lopen is trying to say it at times that will help in a fight, but he isn't READY for them.  It's in those small moments that Lopen accepts the words, lets them in, and they become a part of him.  

[Inspector Morgue]

Here's the thing, nothing ever indicated that the ideals had to be exactly worded; the thing about the ideals is that, because of the different ways somebody can be mentally "broken", the ideals they say must be on similar lines to the ones that are standard for an order. 

22 hours ago, Tglassy said:

It doesn't HAVE to be in a moment of stress.  It's a moment of acceptance.  Lopen is trying to say it at times that will help in a fight, but he isn't READY for them.  It's in those small moments that Lopen accepts the words, lets them in, and they become a part of him.  

Yeah, I understand that, I feel like Dicebreaker had a point that The Stormlight Archive should be adapted into a TTRPG as the small moments are just as important as the grand ones. There's something about levelling up beyond just combat that allows small moments like a friendship.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Inspector Morgue

[+hwiles]

I'd just like to point out that not every radiant needs to, or really even should be allowed, to swear up to and passed the 4th ideal.

Lopen can do a lot of good where he is and he's risen much farther than should have ever been expected.