theory Aluminum theory

[CameronUluvara she/her]

 

 I know, I know, not supposed to post twice in a row, but I got too excited about this discovery to spend the time copy-and-pasting all these sources right then. Well, here they are, some of the WoBs I was looking at that support this theory.

SageOfTheWise

In Allomancy, normal metals are simply a tool that channels Allomancer's already existing Connection to the power of Preservation, which is why non-Allomancers don't get powers from digesting metal. But if I understand it correctly, god metals are an exception, since they are a form of a Shard's power, burning them directly uses the power stored within.

If I have this right, how come a normal person can burn lerasium, but not atium? Or could they, and no ones thought to try? But if that was true why are there atium Mistings?

Brandon Sanderson

Suffice it to say that what people both in the books and out think about the god metals has some holes in it.

 

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

 

Questioner

Mistborn travels to Roshar, what does he or she use to get Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* So. *pause* I think I've talked about this before on the 17th Shard, but I'm not 100% sure and so I don't want to anything right now, not knowing what I've said. But you can look it up. You can ask Peter. Hey Peter, have I talked about someone using-- Have I ever in an interview before talked about using metals... A Mistborn travels to Roshar and uses the metals there?

Peter Ahlstrom

I think that you have said that they could do it.

Brandon Sanderson

I said it.  Okay, so the thing about the metals you have to understand is the metals are a key, the metals are not magical themselves, except for specific ones. If I've already said that I can tell you, go to Roshar and you could use the metals that are there to power your Allomancy because the difference is in your soul and you're actually drawing directly from Preservation. Remember that on the Spiritual Realm, this is the big tidbit--they're listening. On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one. So anything that exists on the Spiritual Realm, space doesn't matter for it.

 

Lurcher

Can you burn a metal wrapped in another metal, if both are Allomantic? Like, the inner metal, could you just burn that before?

Brandon Sanderson

No, you're gonna have to work your way through the outer one.

Lurcher

And what if it was a non-Allomantic metal? The same?

Brandon Sanderson

It's gonna depend on how thick it is, and stuff. But I would say, if you wrap it in a non-Allomantic metal, that's not good for getting to the metal. It's viable, but it just depends on how thick it is, and things like that. Like, sometimes things have been plated to keep the access to the metal off, but usually you would want to do that in aluminum, to make sure.

Specific Aluminum WoBs

Questioner

Would aluminum give an atium shadow? Like if someone threw an aluminum spear?

Brandon Sanderson

The aluminum would not give an atium shadow. Good question.

 

Coinshooter (paraphrased)

Could aluminum act as a sort of shield from other forms of Investiture? As in, could an aluminum Misting lashed to something burn aluminum and dispel the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

 

Kurkistan

Speaking of interfering, if you shot an aluminum bullet through a time bubble, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooooh, that's a good question. I'm gonna RAFO that one. It's an excellent question.

 

Douglas

What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

 

(Assorted Brandon Sanderson)

All right, all right. Let's see... /u/Aurora_Fatalis, changing metals around with other forms of Investiture is generally going to work, according to how I view the magic right now. The power is there, you just need to align the matter the right way. So forging new metals: not too difficult. This is because Allomancy isn't actually using Investiture in the metals, but using it as a key to get power from somewhere else.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Aluminum has some weird properties on all of the magic systems, not just Allomancy. It does not have the same effect, but aluminum has some bizarre effects.

[NameIess]

5 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

After a deep dive through the arcanum, I believe these disagreements are caused by faulty understanding of the metallic arts. I have now learned that the metals are not actually Invested by the arts. They are more like strainers. Allomancers draw on Investiture through the metals, which determines what effect the Investiture has. Same with Feruchemists--they do not Invest the metal. Having Feruchemical power is like having a door to your own personal vault of Investiture that you fill and empty; the metal is the key that determines what effect the investiture that you give up and take back has. They merely channel an already existing connection to the spiritual realm. All of aluminum's effects in the metallic arts now make perfect sense. 

Now, my original theory of an anti-god metal, which was thought to be derailed because aluminum could be Invested on Scadrial, is back on track. Aluminum blocks Investiture, destroys Investiture, can temporarily change Connection/Identity to remove the ability to access Investiture, and do lots of fun anti-Investiture things. 

Feruchemy does invest the metals. Otherwise metalminds would not become more difficult to push/pull on as they are filled. The Bands of Mourning would not be almost as invested as a Shardblade. Metalminds would not fill up. And A-aluminum doesn't destroy investiture, investiture cannot be created or destroyed, only change forms. And again, you cannot create godmetals by soulcasting:

Quote

ninch

Could a person Soulcast more atium and lerasium if they had a bead?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Investiture messes things like that up.

General Signed Books 2014 (April 29, 2014)

Why can you create aluminum via that method, as both fused and human soulcasters are capable of? If aluminum was anti-investiture, why aren't there aluminum magic systems? Why hasn't aluminum become sentient? Why can it be made just like real-life aluminum?

[CameronUluvara she/her]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Feruchemy does invest the metals. Otherwise metalminds would not become more difficult to push/pull on as they are filled. The Bands of Mourning would not be almost as invested as a Shardblade. Metalminds would not fill up. And A-aluminum doesn't destroy investiture, investiture cannot be created or destroyed, only change forms. And again, you cannot create godmetals by soulcasting:

No, he said that the metal isn't invested, it's a doorway to something else that stores the investiture. Only the vault becomes more or less invested. I don't know why the amount of Investiture in the vault makes the key harder to throw around, only Brandon knows, but this is what he's said.

[Frustration]

19 hours ago, therunner said:

Not pretending to speak for @Frustration , but I think what he means that we need to distinguish properties of 'Aluminum as metal on its own' vs 'Aluminum's function within metallic arts'.

The contrast between A-Duralumin and A-Aluminum is the same as between A-Nicrosil and A-Chromium, one boosts the other diminishes (and also broadly similar to other pairings, like Zinc and Brass), so not out of ordinary for Allomancy. So from that perspective Aluminum's role within Allomancy is not necessarily 'surprising'.

What is interesting is that Aluminum seemingly resists any and every expression of Investiture in Cosmere on itself and interferes with others. It resists Shardblades, Nightblood (to some extent), it cannot be Forged or Soulcasted, it blocks leaking of Investiture (can be used to take liquid from Perpendicularity) and can interfere with Connection (application in Fabrials). For that it is important to note that some (but not all, see duralumin) alloys of Aluminum have similar properties (the 'aluminum' bullets in Era 2 are not pure aluminum). However at the same time it is viable within Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, which goes against these principles.

Then there are two questions (from my perspective)

1. Why does Aluminum have this property of resisting Investiture acting on itself and why it interferes with Connection (if that is what it is), which is independent of any magic system.
2. How (despite number 1) can be Aluminum used in Feruchemy when the metalminds become invested when storing? (potentially also how can it be used in Hemalurgy, but it is possible there it only removes the powers and does not become invested)

That is exactly what I meant.

It should also be noted that we are unsure if you can tap aluminum, and in hemalurgy it doesn't steal it simply destroys.

17 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

No, he said that the metal isn't invested, it's a doorway to something else that stores the investiture. Only the vault becomes more or less invested. I don't know why the amount of Investiture in the vault makes the key harder to throw around, only Brandon knows, but this is what he's said.

They are invested

Spoiler

Questioner

How many smacks would it take from a Shardblade to break, say, a metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

A metalmind? Depends on how much it's invested.

Shadows of Self Portland signing (Oct. 10, 2015)

 

[CameronUluvara she/her]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They are invested

  Hide contents

Questioner

How many smacks would it take from a Shardblade to break, say, a metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

A metalmind? Depends on how much it's invested.

Shadows of Self Portland signing (Oct. 10, 2015)

 

When he says Invested, I believe he means 'much Investiture has passed through it', or 'it is the key to a lot of Investiture'. Like when he said that a gemstone that had frequently held one light wouldn't hold another light quite as well. At least, that's a reasonable explanation, with which we can rationalize seemingly contradictory WoBs so that they no longer disagree. Yes, the phrasing is not exact. He didn't have this argument in mind. But I'm making it work because there isn't another explanation. Like I said earlier, I don't know why the amount of Investiture in the vault makes the key harder to throw around, only Brandon knows, but this is what he's said.

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by CameronUluvara

[Frustration]

Just now, CameronUluvara said:

When he says Invested, I believe he means 'much Investiture has passed through it', or 'it is the key to a lot of Investiture'. Like when he said that a gemstone that had frequently held one light wouldn't hold another light quite as well. At least, that's a reasonable explanation, with which we can rationalize seemingly contradictory WoBs so that they no longer disagree. Yes, the phrasing is not exact. He didn't have this argument in mind. But I'm making it work because there isn't another explanation.

Yes there is.

Allomancy does not have investiture inate to the metal, but Feruchemy stores investiture in it.

[CameronUluvara she/her]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes there is.

Allomancy does not have investiture inate to the metal, but Feruchemy stores investiture in it.

"The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed."

Rogaen

What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again?

Brandon Sanderson

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors.

 

BipedSnowman

So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture?

OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope?

Brandon Sanderson

I see no reason why these wouldn't work.

 

If the Investiture were in the metal, the Investiture would be in metal in the water. It'd either be in the water, or it would escape like from a broken gemstone. It's not in the water or the allotrope or the metal. It's in the key. You recreate the key, you get back the Investiture. Metal does not store Investiture. Metal, in Allomancy, in Feruchemy, in Hemalurgy, creates Connection or channels it from the spiritual realm. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by CameronUluvara

[therunner he/him]

5 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

If the Investiture were in the metal, the Investiture would be in metal in the water. It'd either be in the water, or it would escape like from a broken gemstone. It's not in the water or the allotrope or the metal. It's in the key. You recreate the key, you get back the Investiture. Metal does not store Investiture. Metal, in Allomancy, in Feruchemy, in Hemalurgy, creates Connection or channels it from the spiritual realm. 

Or the investiture is simply bound to the atom, and that can persists as long as the atom does not change to different element. This explains both the electrolysis dissolution and the allotropic change.
Metal does store investiture in both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. Both metalminds and spikes become invested (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e247), like a Shardblade (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/231/#e5692) or Nightblood, and those objects specifically do have Investiture in physical realm (Nightblood is invested via breaths which are in physical, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5282).

For Feruchemy we even know that the charge diffuses through the metal, and halving would halve the charge.

Quote

Paleo

We tried to develop a theory of what a metalmind actually is, and we know that splitting a metalmind can halve the charge effectively or divide the charge.

Brandon Sanderson

It can divide the charge although it makes it much harder to, yeah.

Paleo

But is it actually physical... is the charge concentrated physically at one point or is it more like a gas so it diffuses?

Brandon Sanderson

It diffuses.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

Not to mention it is repeatedly stated that the charge is in the metal, e.g.

Quote

ReaderAt2046

Can a Feruchemist store an attribute in a metalmind that someone else has already stored in and if so, do the charges affect each other in any way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but the charges are just stored in separate pieces of the metal, and don't really influence one another.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

Hemalurgic spikes are also invested

Quote

Herowannabe

Can an infused Hemalurgy spike be affected by Allomancy- steel pushes and iron pulls? Or does the charge interfere with the Allomancy much like a person's body would?

Brandon Sanderson

Anything infused (regardless of the world or magic that infused it) is resistant to magic. So you'd have a lot of trouble pushing or pulling on a spike, unless you had access to a boost of some sort to overcome the resistance.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

 

Also both spikes and metalminds leak/decay
 

Quote

Questioner

Hemalurgic spikes degrade very quickly, but Feruchemical metals can hold on to their charge forever, apparently. Is that just because Hemalurgy is corruptive?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, though I may not say "forever."

Questioner

But it's much slower?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, way slower.

Yes, it's the nature of Feruchemy and Hemalurgy.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

In all Metallic arts the metal is a key, in the sense that the structure of the element or alloy determines the properties of the magic. In allomancy it is almost a literal key, in that the investiture comes from Spiritual and is shaped via the metal, however in both Hemalurgy and Feruchemy the Investiture is in the metal directly, and the changed effect in compounding comes from interference of this stored Investiture and the Investiture coming from Spiritual

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

"The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed."

Rogaen

What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again?

Brandon Sanderson

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors.

 

BipedSnowman

So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture?

OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope?

Brandon Sanderson

I see no reason why these wouldn't work.

 

If the Investiture were in the metal, the Investiture would be in metal in the water. It'd either be in the water, or it would escape like from a broken gemstone. It's not in the water or the allotrope or the metal. It's in the key. You recreate the key, you get back the Investiture. Metal does not store Investiture. Metal, in Allomancy, in Feruchemy, in Hemalurgy, creates Connection or channels it from the spiritual realm. 

Both of those litterally say that the metal is invested.

Allomancy is the only metallic art where the metal itself does not contain the investiture.

[CameronUluvara she/her]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Both of those litterally say that the metal is invested.

No? They don’t?

 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

Or the investiture is simply bound to the atom, and that can persists as long as the atom does not change to different element. This explains both the electrolysis dissolution and the allotropic change.
Metal does store investiture in both Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. Both metalminds and spikes become invested (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e247), like a Shardblade (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/231/#e5692) or Nightblood, and those objects specifically do have Investiture in physical realm (Nightblood is invested via breaths which are in physical, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5282).

For Feruchemy we even know that the charge diffuses through the metal, and halving would halve the charge.

Not to mention it is repeatedly stated that the charge is in the metal, e.g.

Hemalurgic spikes are also invested

Also both spikes and metalminds leak/decay
 

In all Metallic arts the metal is a key, in the sense that the structure of the element or alloy determines the properties of the magic. In allomancy it is almost a literal key, in that the investiture comes from Spiritual and is shaped via the metal, however in both Hemalurgy and Feruchemy the Investiture is in the metal directly, and the changed effect in compounding comes from interference of this stored Investiture and the Investiture coming from the Spiritual Realm

 

I’ve adequately answered these arguments in my earlier posts.

We’re going in circles, stating opinions and citing sources. We’re not coming any closer to agreement, so though it’s been lovely, this is where I get off the train. I’ll leave you with this: my theory has an explanation for why aluminum, which greatly resists Investiture, can be used to store Connection. Among all the contradictions, I picked the side that makes the Cosmere work.

[therunner he/him]

18 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

I’ve adequately answered these arguments in my earlier posts.

I disagree, if you completly disregard direct WoB stating investiture is literally in the metal (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1143), you better have bulletproof arguments.

18 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

We’re going in circles, stating opinions and citing sources. We’re not coming any closer to agreement, so though it’s been lovely, this is where I get off the train. I’ll leave you with this: my theory has an explanation for why aluminum, which greatly resists Investiture, can be used to store Connection. Among all the contradictions, I picked the side that makes the Cosmere work.

And your theory also conflicts with other known properties that make Cosmere work. Specifically, why would metalminds resist Shardblades and pushes/pulls in your scheme, since they are not Invested and merely serve as a key/gateway?

Edited April 18, 2022 by therunner
Spelling

[CameronUluvara she/her]

13 minutes ago, therunner said:

I disagree, if you completly disregard direct WoB stating investiture is literally in the metal (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1143), you better have bulletproof arguments.

And your theory also conflicts with other known properties that make Cosmere work. Specifically, why would metalminds resist Shardblades and pushes/pulls in your scheme, since they are not Invested and merely serve as a key/gateway?

And you disregard Wobs saying that Investiture is not in the metal, and those saying Aluminum can't be Invested. Somebody just ask Brandon!

11 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

When he says Invested, I believe he means 'much Investiture has passed through it', or 'it is the key to a lot of Investiture'. Like when he said that a gemstone that had frequently held one light wouldn't hold another light quite as well. At least, that's a reasonable explanation, with which we can rationalize seemingly contradictory WoBs so that they no longer disagree. Yes, the phrasing is not exact. He didn't have this argument in mind. But I'm making it work because there isn't another explanation. Like I said earlier, I don't know why the amount of Investiture in the vault makes the key harder to throw around, only Brandon knows, but this is what he's said.

 

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Or the investiture is simply bound to the atom, and that can persists as long as the atom does not change to different element. This explains both the electrolysis dissolution and the allotropic change.

If the Investiture is bound to the atom, where does it go when the atom changes? Why does it come back? 

BipedSnowman

So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture?

OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope?

Brandon Sanderson

I see no reason why these wouldn't work.

 

If the Investiture were in the metal, the Investiture would be in metal in the water. It'd either be in the water, or it would escape like from a broken gemstone. It's not in the water or the allotrope or the metal. It's in the key. You recreate the key, you get back the Investiture. Metal does not store Investiture. Metal, in Allomancy, in Feruchemy, in Hemalurgy, creates Connection or channels it from the spiritual realm. 

[therunner he/him]

12 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

And you disregard Wobs saying that Investiture is not in the metal, and those saying Aluminum can't be Invested. Somebody just ask Brandon!

Would you mind quoting those WoBs saying Investiture is not in the metal? I have not been able to find them.

13 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

If the Investiture is bound to the atom, where does it go when the atom changes? Why does it come back?

Presumably it would stay there but be inaccessible (similar to when you alloy metalmind into a different alloy, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/131/#e3969 ), however for changing the atoms directly we don't actually know.

17 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

 

Quote

 

BipedSnowman

So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture?

OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope?

Brandon Sanderson

I see no reason why these wouldn't work.

 

If the Investiture were in the metal, the Investiture would be in metal in the water. It'd either be in the water, or it would escape like from a broken gemstone. It's not in the water or the allotrope or the metal. It's in the key.

And I would say that the Investiture actually is in the metal in the water, the WoB does not contradict that. If the Investiture is bound directly to atoms it would not escape. After all, electrolysis only breaks the bonds and separates the atoms, and we know that cutting metalmind in half simply means that each half contains only half the original store (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13238). If you continue cutting them in half you could eventually get atom sized metalminds.

20 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

When he says Invested, I believe he means 'much Investiture has passed through it', or 'it is the key to a lot of Investiture'. Like when he said that a gemstone that had frequently held one light wouldn't hold another light quite as well. At least, that's a reasonable explanation, with which we can rationalize seemingly contradictory WoBs so that they no longer disagree. Yes, the phrasing is not exact. He didn't have this argument in mind. But I'm making it work because there isn't another explanation. Like I said earlier, I don't know why the amount of Investiture in the vault makes the key harder to throw around, only Brandon knows, but this is what he's said.

So you are saying he is using the word 'Invested' to mean two different things?

1.  an object that contains a lot of investiture (Shardblade, Honorblade, godmetals, Nightblood)
2. an object that is a key to Investiture, but is not directly Invested themselves

And these two behave the same way for purpose of resisting Invested arts and other Invested objects?

If so, why is ordinary metal not Invested per your definition, since it also serves as a key, yet does not resist Invested arts?

[Frustration]

47 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

No? They don’t?

Oh really?

Quote

Rogaen

What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again?

Brandon Sanderson

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors.

 

BipedSnowman

So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture?

OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope?

Brandon Sanderson

I see no reason why these wouldn't work.

Stored in, not by in.

17 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

And you disregard Wobs saying that Investiture is not in the metal

I have yet to see a single WoB about metalminds/spikes not being invested.

18 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

and those saying Aluminum can't be Invested.

No one is arguing aluminum can be.

18 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Somebody just ask Brandon!

That is much harder than you make it out to be.

21 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

If the Investiture is bound to the atom, where does it go when the atom changes? Why does it come back? 

BipedSnowman

So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture?

OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope?

Brandon Sanderson

I see no reason why these wouldn't work.

 

If the Investiture were in the metal, the Investiture would be in metal in the water. It'd either be in the water, or it would escape like from a broken gemstone. It's not in the water or the allotrope or the metal. It's in the key. You recreate the key, you get back the Investiture. Metal does not store Investiture. Metal, in Allomancy, in Feruchemy, in Hemalurgy, creates Connection or channels it from the spiritual realm. 

The atom is never gone in either prosess

 

If the investiture is not stored in the metal itself why can't you use any metal of the same type to get the attribute back?

[CameronUluvara she/her]

I could answer each of your complaints, and oh, how I want to! But we'd be going in circles again. We're not understanding each other, and we're not going to come any closer to agreement. It's meaningless to continue.

[therunner he/him]

7 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

I could answer each of your complaints, and oh, how I want to! But we'd be going in circles again. We're not understanding each other, and we're not going to come any closer to agreement. It's meaningless to continue.

I would content myself with WoB stating that Investiture is not in the metal, as I am unable to find those.

[CameronUluvara she/her]

tay95

A theme throughout a lot of the Cosmere novels is that form, of one sort or another (patterns, aons, etc.) has a crucial role to play in unlocking or using Investiture.

As a chemist, I'm curious about the role of form in Allomancy and Feruchemy. Does the underlying molecular or crystalline structure of the metal or alloy play a roll? Different processes, doping ratios, and metal mixtures result in different molecular packing, lattices, and ultimately structure. It seems like that kind of very defined, orderly matrix would be right in line with other forms of unlocking Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! I've actually mentioned to people before that the chemistry of the various metals act in the same way that the Aons work for AonDor. It's more a key than it is a source of power itself.

 

Here's one

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

tay95

A theme throughout a lot of the Cosmere novels is that form, of one sort or another (patterns, aons, etc.) has a crucial role to play in unlocking or using Investiture.

As a chemist, I'm curious about the role of form in Allomancy and Feruchemy. Does the underlying molecular or crystalline structure of the metal or alloy play a roll? Different processes, doping ratios, and metal mixtures result in different molecular packing, lattices, and ultimately structure. It seems like that kind of very defined, orderly matrix would be right in line with other forms of unlocking Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! I've actually mentioned to people before that the chemistry of the various metals act in the same way that the Aons work for AonDor. It's more a key than it is a source of power itself.

In feruchemy, the metal 'keys' the kind of investiture you can store/tap with it. Change the metal, change the type of investiture you can store/tap with it.

[therunner he/him]

17 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

tay95

A theme throughout a lot of the Cosmere novels is that form, of one sort or another (patterns, aons, etc.) has a crucial role to play in unlocking or using Investiture.

As a chemist, I'm curious about the role of form in Allomancy and Feruchemy. Does the underlying molecular or crystalline structure of the metal or alloy play a roll? Different processes, doping ratios, and metal mixtures result in different molecular packing, lattices, and ultimately structure. It seems like that kind of very defined, orderly matrix would be right in line with other forms of unlocking Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! I've actually mentioned to people before that the chemistry of the various metals act in the same way that the Aons work for AonDor. It's more a key than it is a source of power itself.

 

Here's one

Thank you. I am sure you notice that phrasing comes from the questioner not Brandon, so considering we have WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1143 , and others linked above by Frustration) where Brandon directly states Investiture is stored in metal, this is coincidental at best?
No one disputes that the structure of metal plays in Metallic arts a role similar to Aons in AonDor, providing the 'shape'/Command, that however has little bearing on where the Investiture powering it comes from.

EDIT: Sorry, posted before finishing a thought. We also have a WoB (albeit paraphrased) saying the metal is charged with the power, and it is that charge that then leads to Compounding. Elsewhere he also talks about Feruchemical charge in the metalmind.

Quote

 

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by therunner

[+ShardlessVessel]

On 15/04/2022 at 0:34 PM, Frustration said:

Because aluminum doesn't turn investiture off, it is just unaffected.

Doesn't aluminum pop time bubbles?

[NameIess]

12 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

Doesn't aluminum pop time bubbles?

Yes. But that's probably because time bubbles are rather volatile.

[Frustration]

35 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

Doesn't aluminum pop time bubbles?

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yes. But that's probably because time bubbles are rather volatile.

I don't recall it doing that, the closest thing I recall is this

Quote

Kurkistan

Speaking of interfering, if you shot an aluminum bullet through a time bubble, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooooh, that's a good question. I'm gonna RAFO that one. It's an excellent question.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

[CameronUluvara she/her]

Questioner

What would happen--

Imagine I had-- imagine Wayne is standing near the end of an aluminium tube. He tries to set up a speed bubble such that he radius would go through the tube, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay standing at the end of an aluminum tube, well I don't know--

Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I think that if it's trying to be set up through aluminum it's gonna' disrupt it, you're gonna' have that sort of the "backlash" that you get when-- yeah.

Questioner

Oh so you can't even set it, it won't be there *inaudible*--

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think you can set it up, I think it's gonna' cause it to collapse the second that it tries to pop up around the aluminum.

Questioner

Okay that makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Yeah, it's probably gonna' act like you tried to set up a speed bubble on something that's too small and moving.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, CameronUluvara said:

Questioner

What would happen--

Imagine I had-- imagine Wayne is standing near the end of an aluminium tube. He tries to set up a speed bubble such that he radius would go through the tube, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay standing at the end of an aluminum tube, well I don't know--

Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I think that if it's trying to be set up through aluminum it's gonna' disrupt it, you're gonna' have that sort of the "backlash" that you get when-- yeah.

Questioner

Oh so you can't even set it, it won't be there *inaudible*--

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think you can set it up, I think it's gonna' cause it to collapse the second that it tries to pop up around the aluminum.

Questioner

Okay that makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

Yeah, it's probably gonna' act like you tried to set up a speed bubble on something that's too small and moving.

That's preventing investiture from being used on Aluminum, not turning it off.

For example aluminum doesn't affect copperclouds.

[CameronUluvara she/her]

53 minutes ago, ShardlessVessel said:

Doesn't aluminum pop time bubbles?

Your answer is yes.

And, because you asked this in response to Frustration's claim that aluminum 'doesn't turn Investiture off, it's just unaffected" I'm going to assume you were also asking if that was correct. And that answer is no. Aluminum does pop speed bubbles, the entirety of the speed bubble, not just the part around the aluminum is affected. 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by CameronUluvara