Kelek Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I am very interested to see if there is a timeline on the last (most recent) Desolation to present events (Beginning of the Last Desolation). My interpretation is that the prologue scene happened after Dalinar's visions, but I have trouble with where Nohadon and his 'Way of Kings' fits. It seems to me that Nohadon and the book came around the last Desolation, because he is the last mention of a unified Alethi kingdom, until Gavilar(sp). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I am very interested to see if there is a timeline on the last (most recent) Desolation to present events (Beginning of the Last Desolation). My interpretation is that the prologue scene happened after Dalinar's visions, but I have trouble with where Nohadon and his 'Way of Kings' fits. It seems to me that Nohadon and the book came around the last Desolation, because he is the last mention of a unified Alethi kingdom, until Gavilar(sp). As far as I can tell, the Prologue takes place after the Nohadon scene and before the Recreance (the KRs fall.) Because there are KR in the Prologue it must take place after Nohadon (as he effectively started the KR) and before the KR disbanding (again, their are KR.) Timeline is something like this (assuming no one in the novels is lying or there is information lost.): Expulsion Desolations <Nohadon's Reign> <Breaking of the Oathpact> The "Last" Desolation The Recreance <Death of the Almighty> (inferred from the Highstorm visions: none of them take place after the Recreance and there are a few other ideas that help confirm this idea. This thread shows at least one other idea that supports this time frame.) The Hierocracy <Gaviliar takes control of Alethkar> <Gaviliar is slain by Szeth> <Events of the Way of Kings> Sadly, we only know one set of dates: it is 4500 years from the "Last" Desolation to Gaviliar's assassination. Other than that we have no information on dates, afaik, just their relative order. Oh, sometime between The "Last" Desolation and the "current" time, the Shattered Plains were created, which may be the same time as the Death of the Almighty, depending on how you feel about what/who caused the creation of the Shattered Plains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I don't think we can be sure that the Almighty was even dead back before the Hierocracy. Other than that, I agree with Thor's timeline. Just because Tanavast didn't offer Dalinar any visions after the Recreance (with the exception of the prophetic vision) doesn't mean he died shortly afterward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek Posted October 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Thank you for the info. It was a very good breakdown. Longtime stalker and just started participating on forums, so I hope I will be able to contribute. I also have to say that another thing that confuses me is Nohadon's role in "forming" the KR. Is it stated that he formed the KR? The way I saw it, he gave the people an honorable way to live. A sort of 'bible', but the actual KR? I thought they had been around fighting in all desolations, aka the Oathpact. Am I confusing the KR with the 10 gods? dawnshards? Whatever the correct term is for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek Posted October 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I feel that I must clarify. Nohadon, imo, was a wise warlord. He led his kingdom through a desolation, united Alethkar, gave his people the "Way of Kings" morals to follow, and wrote said book. A great leader, but I fail to see where he formed the KR, which seems to be a popularly believed thought/assumption. Please correct my ignorance or support my theory. Basically, Help! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuaiir Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I think I can clarify this. Surgebinders existed before the Way of Kings was written, but they were not organized into the Orders of Knights Radiant that we are familiar with. Someone with Szeth's or Kaladin's abilities would not have been called a Windrunner, he or she would merely have been called a Surgebinder. Basically, the magic system was around, but Nohadon and his book gave it a sense of order and organization that lasted for centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunblesser Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 ^^^ This. I'll add that i don't think Nohadon was directly involved in setting up the orders of the KR. for some reason i feel like it was the heralds who actually organized surgebinders into different orders, possibly because each order has specific abilities and essences that associate with specific heralds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zas678 Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 I agree. I think that Nohaden didn't actually set up the KR; he just created the environment that allowed the KR to thrive and be successful, as well as a model for them to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek Posted October 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Ok. thanks to everyone for the posts here. I agree that Nohadon didn't form the Radiants themselves. I guess my main trouble is with when they started being called Radiants. Basically, were Dalinar's visions in a chronological order? And were the Radiants around and fell prior to the Dalinar/Nohadon vision? Could that be why Nohadon wrote the book? Without the KR to look up to, the Oathpact failing, Nohadon felt that he should give the people a guide. I like the theory from Sunblesser, that they were formed/organized by the heralds. My question stems from not enough info. I guess I will have to proceed with a RAFO for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wispsy Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 im sure that i saw a quote somewhere that nohadons book became the inspiration and guide for the knights radiant ? im not sure where tho so sry this is a kinda useless post but i think there is one somewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek Posted October 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 The Knights Radiant The 10 Heralds founded 10 orders of the Knights Radiant and gave them Shardplate and Shardblades to combat the voidbringers. The 10 orders specialized in different abilities linked to the Herald that founded the order. The Knights Radiant gained their power through spren by creating a bond to them, the only examples are Syl who is an Honor spren shares a bond with Kaladin giving him the power to surgebind and Shallan created a bond with the unnamed spren to soulcast. The Knights radiant lived by their 4 ideals, the first ideal or the Immortal Words was the same for every order: Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination. The other 3 ideals are different for each order, Kaladin towards the end of The Way of Kings utters the second ideal for the Order of Windrunners: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. After saying the second ideal Kaladin is able to use Surgebinding more effectively, use larger amounts of stormlight and he gains the soft glow of the radiants seen in Dalinar's vision. Pulled this from Wikipedia. I have looked for your quote Wispy, but I haven't found anything. Looks like it is time for another readthrough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunblesser Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 regarding the order of dalinar's vision; i was never under the impression that they were coming in chronological order. that's just a gut feeling though, if anyone has evidence to the contrary, do tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 indeed Dalinar himself notes that the visions are not in exact chronological order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 The Knights Radiant The 10 Heralds founded 10 orders of the Knights Radiant and gave them Shardplate and Shardblades to combat the voidbringers. The 10 orders specialized in different abilities linked to the Herald that founded the order. The Knights Radiant gained their power through spren by creating a bond to them, the only examples are Syl who is an Honor spren shares a bond with Kaladin giving him the power to surgebind and Shallan created a bond with the unnamed spren to soulcast. The Knights radiant lived by their 4 ideals, the first ideal or the Immortal Words was the same for every order: Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination. The other 3 ideals are different for each order, Kaladin towards the end of The Way of Kings utters the second ideal for the Order of Windrunners: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. After saying the second ideal Kaladin is able to use Surgebinding more effectively, use larger amounts of stormlight and he gains the soft glow of the radiants seen in Dalinar's vision. Pulled this from Wikipedia. I have looked for your quote Wispy, but I haven't found anything. Looks like it is time for another readthrough. Good heavens, the Wikipedia article was written by One of Us. Probably a few of us, actually, but not me, because I haven't touched the Brandon Sanderson articles at all. Wikipedia is a good reference for things that (a) don't really matter to you, the reader, ( are technical enough they aren't likely to be vandalized or © are useful enough people will vigilantly protect them. In this case, the forums and the books themselves are way better resources than Wikipedia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) All right, found the quote I was looking for (which is what I based my statement on; it is also the quote that Wispsy was looking for, I believe.): “It’s a quote,” Dalinar said. “From an ancient book called The Way of Kings. Gavilar favored readings from the volume near the end of his life—hespoke to me of it often. I didn’t realize the quote was from it until recently; Jasnah discovered it for me. I’ve now had the text of the book read to me a few times, but so far, I find nothing to explain why he wrote what he did.” He paused. “The book was used by the Radiants as a kind of guidebook, a book of counsel on how to live their lives.” Emphasis added. (I don't have the page number, got it from the e-book.) There is your reasoning for the KRs creation being after Nohadon. My apologies for not specifying that it was Nohadon's ideas, not Nohadon himself, that helped to created the KR. Then again, Kaladin's father mentions that the KR were founded by the Heralds, and we don't know which of these is the correct interpretation, if either of them are correct, or if the real answer lies in a mixture of the two. I wouldn't be surprised if the Heralds founded the KR after seeing Nohadon's book, looking at the problems that the surgebinders were causing (as mentioned by Nohadon) and then cribbing the ideas from TWoK. It definitely makes their job easier to have an order of armored knights running around protecting people before they can arrive. Not enough information is a large problem with only one book out of ten being released... The visions aren't in chronological order, though we can deduce the CO fairly easily through context clues. The scenes are (with the chapter they are found in and a very brief summary): Starfalls (chapter 19, attack of smoke creatures), A Highway to the Sun (chapter 52, The Day of Recreance), That Which We Cannot Have (chapter 60, Noahadon's Musings), and In the Top Room (chapter 75, rehash of the introduction and The Everstorm). In CO, first to last, with reasonings are as follows: That Which We Cannot Have (As has been stated, the KR came after Nohadon.) Starfalls (There are members of the KR in this vision.) A Highway to the Sun (The disbandment of the KR.) In the Top Room (Last section of the vision, as it is the Everstorm. The earliest section is impossible to date with current information. If Dalinar's walk up the hill doesn't signal a scene change then this earlier segment is also set in the future.) If I missed any, which I think may have happened, feel free to mention them. At least the Wikipedia article is fairly accurate... Edit: Fixed spelling... Edited November 1, 2011 by Thor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 I suspect the Heralds were like "hi guys, here's some awesome weapons and armour for you guys to use to smite bad guys, and here's a book that tells you how we want you to act." Only more eloquently then that. and you got all the visions, Thor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 You guys are awesome! Unfortunately new to the whole theory thing as I am, I am very glad to have some good feedback on this. Wiki referencing was an apparent mistake. But it is a good thing there are people to help. I've got the timeline issue straight, right on time for my re-read.(Just finished Warbreaker) Brandon rocks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 You guys are awesome! Unfortunately new to the whole theory thing as I am, I am very glad to have some good feedback on this. Wiki referencing was an apparent mistake. But it is a good thing there are people to help. I've got the timeline issue straight, right on time for my re-read.(Just finished Warbreaker) Brandon rocks! It's not so much a mistake as it isn't "canon". Using Wikipedia as a source allows fandom mistakes or theories to enter our discussions, which can then propagate themselves without basis. It may be good right now, but just wait until somebody gets obsessed with some unsupported theory! Wikipedia becomes a mess in cases like that. It typically evens itself out, long run, but why turn to it when "canon" is available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcanist Lupus Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 I found the quote about Nohadon and the Knights Radiant! (actually, I stole it from somebody else on the forums, but...) “Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”“I agree,” Dalinar said. The other man looked relieved. “I worried that you would find my claims too forward. Your own Surgebinders were… But, no, we should not look backward.” What’s a Surgebinder? Dalinar wanted to scream the question out, but there was no way. Not without sounding completely out of place. Perhaps… “What do you think should be done with these Surgebinders?” Dalinar asked carefully. “I don’t know if we can force them to do anything.” Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? “Their power… well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them….” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given—whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond—needs to make us better.” He seemed to expect something from Dalinar. But what? “I can read your disagreement in your face,” the regal man said. “It’s all right, Karm. I realize that my thoughts on this subject are unconventional. Perhaps the rest of you are right, perhaps our abilities are proof of a divine election. But if this is true, should we not be more wary of how we act?” The part I've bolded seems to me to lead directly to the creation of the Knights Radiant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discipleofhoid Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 Link to the spreadsheet someone did for the timeline thread on timewasters. One thing I was noticing is that Gavilar found the Parshindi a year and five months before he died. This coincides with the time frame in which Szeth becomes Truthless. Coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcanist Lupus Posted November 14, 2011 Report Share Posted November 14, 2011 Link to the spreadsheet someone did for the timeline thread on timewasters. One thing I was noticing is that Gavilar found the Parshindi a year and five months before he died. This coincides with the time frame in which Szeth becomes Truthless. Coincidence? At this point, I don't think anything's a coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Where did Szeth mention when he became Truthless? I can't seem to remember that bit. Oh, and the spreadsheet was put together by Harakeke, the archeologist who translated the Alethi script from the Navani's notebook pages. Major props to Harakeke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted November 15, 2011 Report Share Posted November 15, 2011 Where did Szeth mention when he became Truthless? I can't seem to remember that bit. Oh, and the spreadsheet was put together by Harakeke, the archeologist who translated the Alethi script from the Navani's notebook pages. Major props to Harakeke. In the first Interlude I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelek Posted November 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 It was also mentioned by the trader, Vstim, in Interlude 4. Pg 435 ebook loc. 9249. Hope this helps. I can't copy the quote. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulir Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 My opinion of when the Almighty/Honor died is in a time that hasn't happened yet. In Dalinor's last vision, the one with the Almighty, Dalinor recognized the city, making me believe it has yet to happen, and when the dark cloud came and destroyed everything except what the Almighty was standing on, it seemed like that was the end of Roshar. I know this is unlikly, but I think the visions were sent back in time to prevent what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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